D1 vs D3. What’s the difference

[palaxoff]

I am on the side that this is a pointless exercise. It is an argument similar to can a College team beat a NFL team.

You ask any D3 coach at a summer tournament who the top Recruits ( D1) are and they will tell you. Why because they know it is pointless to pursue them and better to put their recruiting efforts elsewhere. There are a few exception and the coaches know who they are.

Having been on the field with both levels, D1 is a whole level higher. The game is faster, the athletes are bigger faster, and better stick skills and the talent on the benches doesn't decline. There are more coaches and staff. The facilities are usually larger and better.

[OSVAlacrosse]

In fact there are many low end D1 programs that would kill for some of the kids that go to NESCAC, Centennial, W&L etc.

In my (very recent and intimate) experience, your statement is correct for DI programs outside of the top ~30.

100%. We will always have HS kids that think D1 or bust. And they will do anything for a D1 offer. They don’t care if it is a bottom half program that would lose to most top 10 D3 programs. I can’t imagine why a kid would pick a low level D1 program that will lose 80% of the games for the next 4 years.

There is no way 10 D3 programs could beat half of all D1 programs. The parody in D1 is high this year. As far as programs outside the top 30? I would also disagree that Navy and Syracuse would kill for some kids from NESCAC, Centennial, or W&L. However, kids who have transferred to D1 programs have done well and look at CNU and what they have done getting D1 transfers. It is different for every player and family. Not all families want to pay $65K per year.

[WhiteCarrera]

Most of us on this board have a D3 connection, so look back a few (or several) decades to see the past competition.

I see Wabash playing Notre Dame in football and basketball ... and IU or Purdue, or half the rest of the Big 10 for that matter. You might see Washington & Lee against Virginia or VA Tech, or maybe OWU vs Ohio State. We all know these scenarios, but as participation increases (in whatever sport) so does the number of programs, and so does the delineation between divisions.

[InsiderRoll]

In fact there are many low end D1 programs that would kill for some of the kids that go to NESCAC, Centennial, W&L etc.

In my (very recent and intimate) experience, your statement is correct for DI programs outside of the top ~30.

100%. We will always have HS kids that think D1 or bust. And they will do anything for a D1 offer. They don’t care if it is a bottom half program that would lose to most top 10 D3 programs. I can’t imagine why a kid would pick a low level D1 program that will lose 80% of the games for the next 4 years.

There is no way 10 D3 programs could beat half of all D1 programs. The parody in D1 is high this year. As far as programs outside the top 30? I would also disagree that Navy and Syracuse would kill for some kids from NESCAC, Centennial, or W&L. However, kids who have transferred to D1 programs have done well and look at CNU and what they have done getting D1 transfers. It is different for every player and family. Not all families want to pay $65K per year.

In what world is Navy and Syracuse included as bottom end D1 program? I don’t think I at any point said that. We’re talking about NEC, A-Sun, SOCON, America East. Every thing CAA and up generally is higher end D1 in regards to recruiting (yeah I know there are exceptions).

[Jumbo]

I love seeing the emotions in some replies. You can tell who has a D1 connection and feels they are elite.
There are roughly 75 D1 lax programs. Each one recruits roughly 12 kids a year. That is 900 kids. I can 100% assure that D1 lax is not getting the best 900 kids each year. Some kids don’t get in front of the right coaches during recruiting. Or don’t know what to do. Some lower levers kids might have a great tourney or prospect day and get an offer above their talent level. Some kids can’t afford the big elite D1 schools, so they go to a smaller private D3, or jr college, or club. On average, everyone agrees D1 is better. But as a whole, at some point, the top D3 teams surpass the D1 teams. It definitely doesn’t happen at #75.

[Dehuntshigwa’es]

I am on the side that this is a pointless exercise. It is an argument similar to can a College team beat a NFL team.

You ask any D3 coach at a summer tournament who the top Recruits ( D1) are and they will tell you. Why because they know it is pointless to pursue them and better to put their recruiting efforts elsewhere. There are a few exception and the coaches know who they are.

Having been on the field with both levels, D1 is a whole level higher. The game is faster, the athletes are bigger faster, and better stick skills and the talent on the benches doesn't decline. There are more coaches and staff. The facilities are usually larger and better.

Totally agree best post on this topic

[InsiderRoll]

I am on the side that this is a pointless exercise. It is an argument similar to can a College team beat a NFL team.

You ask any D3 coach at a summer tournament who the top Recruits ( D1) are and they will tell you. Why because they know it is pointless to pursue them and better to put their recruiting efforts elsewhere. There are a few exception and the coaches know who they are.

Having been on the field with both levels, D1 is a whole level higher. The game is faster, the athletes are bigger faster, and better stick skills and the talent on the benches doesn't decline. There are more coaches and staff. The facilities are usually larger and better.

Totally agree best post on this topic

To be fair, every post on this entire forum is as he put it, “a pointless exercise”. But it can be mildly entertaining.

[Jumbo]

It is entertainment. That is why everyone is here. Making polls. Deciding if D1 is elite, which player is an all American. It is all pointless, because it won’t change anything. But it entertains us

[JustOneTime]

Exactly

[allthingsODAC]

Think overall the difference is speed, great talent in D3 but the speed of the game is a lot faster in D1. It's not to say that the top players can't play at that speed, have seen it with Rodgers at HPU (grad year after LYN), Gallagher at OSU this year (also from LYN), and Waldbaum at Jville (tufts). Thats just to name a few. These guys all played at top D3's and have made a big impact in D1. Think that's also leads to the other difference-- what kids are looking for. Plenty of great talent in D3 but, some look at academics and freedom that a lot of the top programs in D3 supply.

[palaxoff]

This just popped in my head. There is a recent actual example of D3 vs D1. Last year Cabrini a recent National Champion played the University of Penn in the only game Penn had last year. The score was Penn 23 Cabrini 9. Cabrini started off strong in first quarter put then Penn shook off the cob webs and imposed their will on them.

[Jumbo]

This just popped in my head. There is a recent actual example of D3 vs D1. Last year Cabrini a recent National Champion played the University of Penn in the only game Penn had last year. The score was Penn 23 Cabrini 9. Cabrini started off strong in first quarter put then Penn shook off the cob webs and imposed their will on them.

There are other examples. CNU beat Bucknell this pre season. Towson beat york 11-8. Games were not full time scrimmages (think they okayed two or three quarters). Both teams played starters and the bench.

[sguy9]

More proof the pandemic is over, this dead horse beating is back!

[SixBySix]

It’s not even just winning and losing. There are many kids that have a NESCAC or bust mentality as well. There are many families and kids that would go to any NESCAC school before even considering a school like High Point or Jacksonville. Every family is different, but “bumper sticker” families are very prevalent in lacrosse. It’s all about where you can say your kids are going to college at the next Fairfield housewife lunch or mainline party.

Just in terms of career prospects that seems like a fairly reasonable position to take.

[smoova]

It’s not even just winning and losing. There are many kids that have a NESCAC or bust mentality as well. There are many families and kids that would go to any NESCAC school before even considering a school like High Point or Jacksonville. Every family is different, but “bumper sticker” families are very prevalent in lacrosse. It’s all about where you can say your kids are going to college at the next Fairfield housewife lunch or mainline party.

Just in terms of career prospects that seems like a fairly reasonable position to take.

Yes - many kids/families all over the country make the same "40 over 4" decision.

[OSVAlacrosse]

I love seeing the emotions in some replies. You can tell who has a D1 connection and feels they are elite.
There are roughly 75 D1 lax programs. Each one recruits roughly 12 kids a year. That is 900 kids. I can 100% assure that D1 lax is not getting the best 900 kids each year. Some kids don’t get in front of the right coaches during recruiting. Or don’t know what to do. Some lower levers kids might have a great tourney or prospect day and get an offer above their talent level. Some kids can’t afford the big elite D1 schools, so they go to a smaller private D3, or jr college, or club. On average, everyone agrees D1 is better. But as a whole, at some point, the top D3 teams surpass the D1 teams. It definitely doesn’t happen at #75.

I think it is fair to say that some D3 kids choose the school and are better than some D1 kids. I would even agree that a team like CNU would win games against a % of the D1 teams. A previous post mentioned half that would include SU and NAVY this season. No way half but maybe the lower 25%? Maybe. However if you look at teams currently lower than 35 that would include some big name teams. Also I highly doubt any top 10 D3 teams wins any D1 conference. Could they win the SOCON or ASUN? Doubt it. I just think it is unnecessary to try to justify a D3 teams success by comparing to a D1. I do think CNU would be favored to win over Hampton, it would be easy to schedule.

[Laxguy703]

I love seeing the emotions in some replies. You can tell who has a D1 connection and feels they are elite.
There are roughly 75 D1 lax programs. Each one recruits roughly 12 kids a year. That is 900 kids. I can 100% assure that D1 lax is not getting the best 900 kids each year. Some kids don’t get in front of the right coaches during recruiting. Or don’t know what to do. Some lower levers kids might have a great tourney or prospect day and get an offer above their talent level. Some kids can’t afford the big elite D1 schools, so they go to a smaller private D3, or jr college, or club. On average, everyone agrees D1 is better. But as a whole, at some point, the top D3 teams surpass the D1 teams. It definitely doesn’t happen at #75.

I think it is fair to say that some D3 kids choose the school and are better than some D1 kids. I would even agree that a team like CNU would win games against a % of the D1 teams. A previous post mentioned half that would include SU and NAVY this season. No way half but maybe the lower 25%? Maybe. However if you look at teams currently lower than 35 that would include some big name teams. Also I highly doubt any top 10 D3 teams wins any D1 conference. Could they win the SOCON or ASUN? Doubt it. I just think it is unnecessary to try to justify a D3 teams success by comparing to a D1. I do think CNU would be favored to win over Hampton, it would be easy to schedule.

CNU scrimmaged Hampton earlier this year and it was 15-1 in the first quarter before they pulled their starters. After watching that, I don’t really see the benefit for either team to schedule a real game.

[Laxxal22]

This topic is an annual exercise that always falls short of asking the obvious follow up question IMO. Just by having this discussion we should all be able to agree that there is sufficient enough talent in Top 10-15 of D3 lacrosse that I think the better (or next) question is - Would you rather be middle to end of the bench on a D1 program that never makes the NCAA tournament or would you rather START on high level D3 program that often makes deep runs in May? When you throw in the fact that you're probably getting a better degree; more aid money and can do a semester abroad to boot at that D3 program - to me its a no brainer. Go D3 all day every day! Any thoughts?

This argument is the reason there is a much smaller gap between the 2 levels than there is in other sports. Good point.

Woodstick and I may be alone on this island, but I still think the gap is trending bigger.

Two really interesting points here:
1. Yes, the gap is smaller than in most sports, but I'm not sure there's any disagreement on that,
2. Interesting how Ned equates middling D1 benchwarmers with D3 starters in high level, deep-running-playoff programs. When you take Ned's comment as a whole, I agree - D3 should be hugely attractive in the big picture, but this single statement (which I agree with BTW) supports a widening gap.

I'm on the "gap is bigger" train. 20 years ago a lot of current D1 teams didn't exist, rosters were smaller, and fewer schools comprised the truly top tier of D3. Recruiting was also much more of a crapshoot in the pre-club and pre-HUDL days. It was basically call up the coaches of blue blood high schools and recruit the kids who made Empire State Games or the all-start team at Top 205. Easier for talent to get overlooked or completely missed back then.

[smoova]

I would also disagree that Navy and Syracuse would kill for some kids from NESCAC, Centennial, or W&L.

A previous post mentioned half that would include SU and NAVY this season. No way half but maybe the lower 25%? Maybe. However if you look at teams currently lower than 35 that would include some big name teams.

You've twice listed Syracuse and Navy as examples of programs that do not lose recruits to DIII schools. I personally know a player who recently turned down Army to attend a NESCAC. About gave his father a stroke. Now, Army is not Syracuse or Navy, but they usually do all right in the polls. Perhaps I know the only player to ever make such a choice, but I doubt it. Everyone has different priorities.

[OSVAlacrosse]

I would also disagree that Navy and Syracuse would kill for some kids from NESCAC, Centennial, or W&L.

A previous post mentioned half that would include SU and NAVY this season. No way half but maybe the lower 25%? Maybe. However if you look at teams currently lower than 35 that would include some big name teams.

You've twice listed Syracuse and Navy as examples of programs that do not lose recruits to DIII schools. I personally know a player who recently turned down Army to attend a NESCAC. About gave his father a stroke. Now, Army is not Syracuse or Navy, but they usually do all right in the polls. Perhaps I know the only player to ever make such a choice, but I doubt it. Everyone has different priorities.

My post does not say they do not loose recruits to those schools I am sure it happens, they could also beat those schools on any given Saturday. My point was a response to another post that stated that the top 10 D3 was better than the bottom 50% of D1. I disagree and point out that this season the bottom half of D1 could be Navy or Syracuse they way things are trending. That has more to do with parody at the D1 level. Choosing an Academy has way more to do with what the student wants than lacrosse. I can easily see that happening with a top lacrosse prospect. I think it is important to distinguish teams from players when making comparisons in this topic. Some D3 players and even MCLA have options and could play D1. that is far different from a D3 team being better than half of all the D1 programs which was in a previous post.