2020 Elections - Trump FIRED

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
seacoaster
Posts: 8866
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Re: 2020 Elections - Banana Republicans Sore Losers

Post by seacoaster »

old salt wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:56 am seacoaster -- you often post Frank Bruni of the NYT. Did you see this one ?
We Still Don’t Really Understand Trump — or America
Democrats expected better. What happened?
By Frank Bruni

Like many Americans demoralized by the softness of the spanking that voters just gave President Trump, I spent the past few days in search of answers. Why were so many of my fellow citizens so content to continue spoiling him? And what happened to the comeuppance due Republican lawmakers for not giving him timeouts?

Heidi Heitkamp, a Democrat who represented deep-red North Dakota in the Senate from 2013 to 2019, had a theory.

“Covid cut both ways,” she said when we spoke on Thursday. She noted that while Trump was supposed to be punished for his downplaying and mismanagement of the pandemic, it may have redounded to his and his party’s benefit in some fashion.

Democrats, including Joe Biden, limited public events, minimized contact with voters and rarely removed their masks. It was the morally right, responsible thing to do.

But among some Americans, Heitkamp wondered, did it come across as finger-wagging? Preachy? She wasn’t saying that Democrats should have dispensed with science and prudence. She was just trying to make sense of it all.

“People in this country don’t like being told what to do,” said Heitkamp, who knows a thing or two about Trump’s popularity between the coasts and beyond densely populated metropolises. “People don’t like being judged.” That’s why some maskless Americans lash out at the masked, she added. They regard face coverings as an “implied judgment.”

“When you aren’t out there doing the handshaking, people see that as a judgment on their behavior,” she suggested. And perhaps it played into their larger qualms about the Democratic Party as a disapproving arbiter of how they speak and how they live.

As I said, it’s a theory, one of many pinging around right now. But it’s also more than that: a reminder of how differently a given situation — or a given person, Trump being the perfect example — can play in different parts of America and among different groups of Americans. Those of us surprised by Trump’s and the Republican Party’s showing in this election keep being blinded by our arrogance. We keep extrapolating from our own perceptions.

Of course Trump lost in the end, no matter what nonsense he continues to spew. Biden has now secured the electoral college votes he needs — he may reach 306 when all is said and done — and he’s on track to win the popular vote by perhaps five million ballots or more. Most presidential elections since (and including) 2000 have been closer than that.

But many battleground states were squeakers. The predicted Democratic takeover of the Senate looks unlikely: It requires victories in both Georgia runoffs. And the Democrats’ House majority shrank.

How? Since Democrats’ strong showing in the 2018 midterms, Trump was impeached. A plague struck. Tens of millions of Americans lost their jobs and huge chunks of their savings. Trump responded with tantrums, lies and intensified attacks on democratic traditions.

That Democrats didn’t triumph even bigger in 2020 seems impossible — unless and until you do what Heitkamp did and re-examine your assumptions through a lens other than the one you’re partial to.

Before Election Day, I kept hearing, reading and thinking that Trump was self-destructing. Watch how he set himself on fire in the first debate. Look at his ludicrously theatrical return to the White House after being hospitalized with Covid-19. Marvel at the fight he picked with Lesley Stahl. Something was wrong.

But other things were right. Those of us obsessed with what a miserable person he is lost sight of what a mighty candidate he is.

“I’ll make a declarative statement,” Doug Sosnik, a Democratic strategist who was the political director in President Bill Clinton’s White House, told me. “There has never been a person in history who got elected for president owing fewer people. Trump didn’t get elected because of his campaign organization. He didn’t get elected because of endorsements. He didn’t get elected because of donors. He did the whole thing on his own. That’s a spectacular political achievement, as much as I dislike him.”

And Trump 2016 lived in Trump 2020. He demonstrated the same knack for correctly identifying and mercilessly exploiting his opponents’ vulnerabilities. (He’s like a sadist who knows precisely where to press his finger to cause the most excruciating pain.) This time around, that meant a warning that Democrats — and, by extension, Biden — were in thrall to socialism, intent on enfeebling the police and about to abolish anything and everything that runs on fossil fuel.

Overblown? Absolutely. But what mattered was that it seemed to resonate with some voters, probably because of other developments between 2018 and now. A group of House Democrats unveiled the Green New Deal, with its astronomical price tag and dizzying reach. The party held a presidential primary in which, at the start, most contenders called for the decriminalization of unauthorized border crossings and health insurance for undocumented immigrants.

And some of the party’s freshest and, as it happens, most progressive faces became brand-defining stars. During much of the past two years, Trump trained his fire not only on the Democrats who might get the party’s presidential nomination but also on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar.

During an intensely emotional, three-hour conference call for House Democrats on Thursday, some moderates complained that the party had left itself open to attack.

“We need to not ever use the words ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again,” Representative Abigail Spanberger of Virginia admonished her colleagues, according to an article in The Washington Post by Rachel Bade and Erica Werner.

Many political analysts have attributed the defeat of two Democratic House incumbents in the Miami area to voters’ concerns that the party had moved too far left.

That dynamic may also have helped Representative Steve Chabot, an Ohio Republican, prevail over his Democratic challenger, Kate Schroder, in a race in the Cincinnati area that The Cook Political Report had labeled a tossup. Corry Bliss, a Republican strategist who consulted on Chabot’s campaign, noted that Chabot, in his ads, hung the Green New Deal around Schroder’s neck. He ended up winning by more than seven percentage points.

“In the eyes of the suburban voter, the Democratic Party of 2020 was much more radical than the Democratic Party of 2018,” Bliss told me. “In 2018, it was a brand-new candidate with no record who wanted you to have better health care. In 2020, it was Bernie Sanders, Liz Warren and A.O.C.”

But politics is complicated: In some places, that reorientation benefited the Democratic Party, which is left with the paradox that the very priorities that most excite its base give serious pause to swing voters and potential converts. Biden, for example, performed much better in the suburbs of Detroit that are represented in Congress by Rashida Tlaib, one of Ocasio-Cortez’s close allies in the House, than Hillary Clinton had, and the turnout of progressive voters there was a critical building block of his victory in Michigan, which Clinton narrowly lost.

What’s uncomplicated is Trump’s mastery of one of the most potent political tricks: whipping people up. Love him or hate him, he’s mesmerizing.

“He’s got this swagger,” Heitkamp said. “If you read the stories about the rallies, they sound like fun events. People have fun there. That’s one thing the Democratic Party should take from Donald Trump.”

And in the final weeks of the campaign, Trump was able to dominate the stage, because Biden, concerned about the safety of big events, ceded it. That was its own considered political statement, its own strategy, but it’s not easy for absence to compete with presence. Quiet with loud. Prohibition with permission.

Trump committed to a furious schedule of his signature rallies in the homestretch, and, ever shameless, exploited Americans’ fears of new shutdowns amid an uptick of coronavirus infections by saying that he would liberate the economy while Biden would strangle it. According to a survey conducted by The Associated Press, 50 percent of voters who made their decisions in the days or minutes before they cast their ballots chose Trump, while 38 percent chose Biden.

I found one of the most intriguing takes on Trump’s appeal in the book “Trump’s Democrats,” by the college professors Stephanie Muravchik and Jon Shields, published in late September. It closely examined voters in three communities — one in Rhode Island, one in Iowa and one in Kentucky — that were firmly Democratic until Trump came along.

And it contended that Trump’s style and character — more than his America First promises of renegotiated trade deals, a fortified southern border and new jobs — were the core of his appeal, because these voters didn’t interpret them the way his detractors did. Trump was a take-charge, take-no-prisoners badass who knew how to win: What was wrong with that? He tortured condescending elites who needed to be brought down a peg or three anyway. He lied, but in the service of standing up for himself.

If you use that Rosetta Stone for recent months, Trump’s ostensible meltdown wasn’t so slushy. His post-Covid bravado wasn’t recklessness and delusion. It was perseverance and strength. His release of “60 Minutes” interview footage before CBS aired it wasn’t puerile. It was what those priggish establishment types deserved. Trump was the enemy of these voters’ enemies, which made him their friend.

“His appeal is very identity-based,” Shields said when I touched base with him after Election Day. He added that four years into Trump’s presidency, “these voters feel a real kinship with him because he seems deeply familiar to them, and because they feel he’s one of them, they’re willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Plus, they’re listening more and more to conservative media, so a lot of their information is not inconsistent with their own intuition about him.” The devastation wrought by the coronavirus was the work of fate. Fate and the Chinese.

Shields said there were 206 counties in America that flipped from Barack Obama to Trump in 2016. Pending final results, 19 are poised to flip back to Biden. That’s partly why Biden did as well as he did, but it’s also why Trump didn’t do worse.

And it speaks to what Sosnik said may be the lesson of the 2020 returns. “A lot of people thought that Trump’s win in 2016 was a bug in the system as opposed to being a central part of the system. But he wasn’t a bug.” The racism and xenophobia that he tapped into, the conspiracies he tilled, the resentments he stoked: These weren’t one-offs, and politicians, including him, aren’t done exploiting them.

Democrats (and many Republicans) who braced for a Biden landslide forgot that an incumbent president is always at an advantage, that the economy reliably shapes presidential elections and that voters gave Trump good marks for managing it. Democrats couldn’t really change that.

But what adjustments can and should they make going forward? The 2020 election provides some validation for progressive policies: Even as voters in Florida chose Trump in greater numbers than in 2016, they approved an increase in the statewide minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2026. Voters in Arizona endorsed a tax increase on the wealthy.

So I wonder if the overreach of other policies — and the tone of some Democrats — turns many Americans off. I wonder, as Heitkamp does, if some Democrats leave these people feeling more shamed than inspired. I wonder about that word that Heitkamp kept using: judgment.

And I’m mindful that Trump often profited by caricaturing Democrats as scolds who constantly told people that they and America didn’t measure up. Trump refused to be judged. Plenty of Americans liked that.
Yup, and as usual it is a good column. Sorry I didn’t post it. A lot of good points of self-reflection and evaluation.

HH’s comment about Americans not being told what to do is frustrating. She’s certainly right. And to me it means that Americans don’t really understand that rights have corresponding duties to the other members of the social contract.
kramerica.inc
Posts: 6238
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:01 pm

Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by kramerica.inc »

And to me it means that Americans don’t really understand that rights have corresponding duties to the other members of the social contract
.

Sea,
Could you expand on that just a little. It’s an interesting point, but in which regard do you mean?
Thx.
Hope everyone is well.
ABV 8.3%
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED, Zombie GOP lives on.

Post by ABV 8.3% »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:38 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:36 pm Attorney General William Barr has authorized federal prosecutors to pursue “substantial allegations” of voting irregularities before the 2020 presidential election is certified - AP

*cut to all the businesses in blue cities putting the plywood back up*
I wonder where Barr will be working in January?
Probably at Wells Fargo or Goldman......as a CONsultant of course......probably both ;)
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22838
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by Farfromgeneva »

kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:50 am
And to me it means that Americans don’t really understand that rights have corresponding duties to the other members of the social contract
.

Sea,
Could you expand on that just a little. It’s an interesting point, but in which regard do you mean?
Thx.
Hope everyone is well.
He means that too many people like to play victim and wallow in their own misery in what has historically (and continues to be, for now...) the greatest, freest and most transparent country on the planet. He also means that being part of this grand experiment isn't just rights, it's also responsibilities. Not responsibilities to some amorphous concept of "the federal government" but to fellow citizens (let alone human beings).
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 22838
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED, Zombie GOP lives on.

Post by Farfromgeneva »

ABV 8.3% wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:01 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:38 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:36 pm Attorney General William Barr has authorized federal prosecutors to pursue “substantial allegations” of voting irregularities before the 2020 presidential election is certified - AP

*cut to all the businesses in blue cities putting the plywood back up*
I wonder where Barr will be working in January?
Probably at Wells Fargo or Goldman......as a CONsultant of course......probably both ;)
He's a telecom guy. Think more like T-Mobile and Verizon and AT&T
Same sword they knight you they gon' good night you with
Thats' only half if they like you
That ain't even the half what they might do
Don't believe me, ask Michael
See Martin, Malcolm
See Jesus, Judas; Caesar, Brutus
See success is like suicide
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32460
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED, Zombie GOP lives on.

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

ABV 8.3% wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:01 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:38 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:36 pm Attorney General William Barr has authorized federal prosecutors to pursue “substantial allegations” of voting irregularities before the 2020 presidential election is certified - AP

*cut to all the businesses in blue cities putting the plywood back up*
I wonder where Barr will be working in January?
Probably at Wells Fargo or Goldman......as a CONsultant of course......probably both ;)
Perhaps
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
ABV 8.3%
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Re: 2020 Elections - Banana Republicans Sore Losers

Post by ABV 8.3% »

seacoaster wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:04 am
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:56 am seacoaster -- you often post Frank Bruni of the NYT. Did you see this one ?
We Still Don’t Really Understand Trump — or America
Democrats expected better. What happened?
By Frank Bruni

Like many Americans demoralized by the softness of the spanking that voters just gave President Trump, I spent the past few days in search of answers. Why were so many of my fellow citizens so content to continue spoiling him? And what happened to the comeuppance due Republican lawmakers for not giving him timeouts?

Heidi Heitkamp, a Democrat who represented deep-red North Dakota in the Senate from 2013 to 2019, had a theory.

“Covid cut both ways,” she said when we spoke on Thursday. She noted that while Trump was supposed to be punished for his downplaying and mismanagement of the pandemic, it may have redounded to his and his party’s benefit in some fashion.

Democrats, including Joe Biden, limited public events, minimized contact with voters and rarely removed their masks. It was the morally right, responsible thing to do.

But among some Americans, Heitkamp wondered, did it come across as finger-wagging? Preachy? She wasn’t saying that Democrats should have dispensed with science and prudence. She was just trying to make sense of it all.

“People in this country don’t like being told what to do,” said Heitkamp, who knows a thing or two about Trump’s popularity between the coasts and beyond densely populated metropolises. “People don’t like being judged.” That’s why some maskless Americans lash out at the masked, she added. They regard face coverings as an “implied judgment.”

“When you aren’t out there doing the handshaking, people see that as a judgment on their behavior,” she suggested. And perhaps it played into their larger qualms about the Democratic Party as a disapproving arbiter of how they speak and how they live.

As I said, it’s a theory, one of many pinging around right now. But it’s also more than that: a reminder of how differently a given situation — or a given person, Trump being the perfect example — can play in different parts of America and among different groups of Americans. Those of us surprised by Trump’s and the Republican Party’s showing in this election keep being blinded by our arrogance. We keep extrapolating from our own perceptions.

Of course Trump lost in the end, no matter what nonsense he continues to spew. Biden has now secured the electoral college votes he needs — he may reach 306 when all is said and done — and he’s on track to win the popular vote by perhaps five million ballots or more. Most presidential elections since (and including) 2000 have been closer than that.

But many battleground states were squeakers. The predicted Democratic takeover of the Senate looks unlikely: It requires victories in both Georgia runoffs. And the Democrats’ House majority shrank.

How? Since Democrats’ strong showing in the 2018 midterms, Trump was impeached. A plague struck. Tens of millions of Americans lost their jobs and huge chunks of their savings. Trump responded with tantrums, lies and intensified attacks on democratic traditions.

That Democrats didn’t triumph even bigger in 2020 seems impossible — unless and until you do what Heitkamp did and re-examine your assumptions through a lens other than the one you’re partial to.

Before Election Day, I kept hearing, reading and thinking that Trump was self-destructing. Watch how he set himself on fire in the first debate. Look at his ludicrously theatrical return to the White House after being hospitalized with Covid-19. Marvel at the fight he picked with Lesley Stahl. Something was wrong.

But other things were right. Those of us obsessed with what a miserable person he is lost sight of what a mighty candidate he is.

“I’ll make a declarative statement,” Doug Sosnik, a Democratic strategist who was the political director in President Bill Clinton’s White House, told me. “There has never been a person in history who got elected for president owing fewer people. Trump didn’t get elected because of his campaign organization. He didn’t get elected because of endorsements. He didn’t get elected because of donors. He did the whole thing on his own. That’s a spectacular political achievement, as much as I dislike him.”

And Trump 2016 lived in Trump 2020. He demonstrated the same knack for correctly identifying and mercilessly exploiting his opponents’ vulnerabilities. (He’s like a sadist who knows precisely where to press his finger to cause the most excruciating pain.) This time around, that meant a warning that Democrats — and, by extension, Biden — were in thrall to socialism, intent on enfeebling the police and about to abolish anything and everything that runs on fossil fuel.

Overblown? Absolutely. But what mattered was that it seemed to resonate with some voters, probably because of other developments between 2018 and now. A group of House Democrats unveiled the Green New Deal, with its astronomical price tag and dizzying reach. The party held a presidential primary in which, at the start, most contenders called for the decriminalization of unauthorized border crossings and health insurance for undocumented immigrants.

And some of the party’s freshest and, as it happens, most progressive faces became brand-defining stars. During much of the past two years, Trump trained his fire not only on the Democrats who might get the party’s presidential nomination but also on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar.

During an intensely emotional, three-hour conference call for House Democrats on Thursday, some moderates complained that the party had left itself open to attack.

“We need to not ever use the words ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again,” Representative Abigail Spanberger of Virginia admonished her colleagues, according to an article in The Washington Post by Rachel Bade and Erica Werner.

Many political analysts have attributed the defeat of two Democratic House incumbents in the Miami area to voters’ concerns that the party had moved too far left.

That dynamic may also have helped Representative Steve Chabot, an Ohio Republican, prevail over his Democratic challenger, Kate Schroder, in a race in the Cincinnati area that The Cook Political Report had labeled a tossup. Corry Bliss, a Republican strategist who consulted on Chabot’s campaign, noted that Chabot, in his ads, hung the Green New Deal around Schroder’s neck. He ended up winning by more than seven percentage points.

“In the eyes of the suburban voter, the Democratic Party of 2020 was much more radical than the Democratic Party of 2018,” Bliss told me. “In 2018, it was a brand-new candidate with no record who wanted you to have better health care. In 2020, it was Bernie Sanders, Liz Warren and A.O.C.”

But politics is complicated: In some places, that reorientation benefited the Democratic Party, which is left with the paradox that the very priorities that most excite its base give serious pause to swing voters and potential converts. Biden, for example, performed much better in the suburbs of Detroit that are represented in Congress by Rashida Tlaib, one of Ocasio-Cortez’s close allies in the House, than Hillary Clinton had, and the turnout of progressive voters there was a critical building block of his victory in Michigan, which Clinton narrowly lost.

What’s uncomplicated is Trump’s mastery of one of the most potent political tricks: whipping people up. Love him or hate him, he’s mesmerizing.

“He’s got this swagger,” Heitkamp said. “If you read the stories about the rallies, they sound like fun events. People have fun there. That’s one thing the Democratic Party should take from Donald Trump.”

And in the final weeks of the campaign, Trump was able to dominate the stage, because Biden, concerned about the safety of big events, ceded it. That was its own considered political statement, its own strategy, but it’s not easy for absence to compete with presence. Quiet with loud. Prohibition with permission.

Trump committed to a furious schedule of his signature rallies in the homestretch, and, ever shameless, exploited Americans’ fears of new shutdowns amid an uptick of coronavirus infections by saying that he would liberate the economy while Biden would strangle it. According to a survey conducted by The Associated Press, 50 percent of voters who made their decisions in the days or minutes before they cast their ballots chose Trump, while 38 percent chose Biden.

I found one of the most intriguing takes on Trump’s appeal in the book “Trump’s Democrats,” by the college professors Stephanie Muravchik and Jon Shields, published in late September. It closely examined voters in three communities — one in Rhode Island, one in Iowa and one in Kentucky — that were firmly Democratic until Trump came along.

And it contended that Trump’s style and character — more than his America First promises of renegotiated trade deals, a fortified southern border and new jobs — were the core of his appeal, because these voters didn’t interpret them the way his detractors did. Trump was a take-charge, take-no-prisoners badass who knew how to win: What was wrong with that? He tortured condescending elites who needed to be brought down a peg or three anyway. He lied, but in the service of standing up for himself.

If you use that Rosetta Stone for recent months, Trump’s ostensible meltdown wasn’t so slushy. His post-Covid bravado wasn’t recklessness and delusion. It was perseverance and strength. His release of “60 Minutes” interview footage before CBS aired it wasn’t puerile. It was what those priggish establishment types deserved. Trump was the enemy of these voters’ enemies, which made him their friend.

“His appeal is very identity-based,” Shields said when I touched base with him after Election Day. He added that four years into Trump’s presidency, “these voters feel a real kinship with him because he seems deeply familiar to them, and because they feel he’s one of them, they’re willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Plus, they’re listening more and more to conservative media, so a lot of their information is not inconsistent with their own intuition about him.” The devastation wrought by the coronavirus was the work of fate. Fate and the Chinese.

Shields said there were 206 counties in America that flipped from Barack Obama to Trump in 2016. Pending final results, 19 are poised to flip back to Biden. That’s partly why Biden did as well as he did, but it’s also why Trump didn’t do worse.

And it speaks to what Sosnik said may be the lesson of the 2020 returns. “A lot of people thought that Trump’s win in 2016 was a bug in the system as opposed to being a central part of the system. But he wasn’t a bug.” The racism and xenophobia that he tapped into, the conspiracies he tilled, the resentments he stoked: These weren’t one-offs, and politicians, including him, aren’t done exploiting them.

Democrats (and many Republicans) who braced for a Biden landslide forgot that an incumbent president is always at an advantage, that the economy reliably shapes presidential elections and that voters gave Trump good marks for managing it. Democrats couldn’t really change that.

But what adjustments can and should they make going forward? The 2020 election provides some validation for progressive policies: Even as voters in Florida chose Trump in greater numbers than in 2016, they approved an increase in the statewide minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2026. Voters in Arizona endorsed a tax increase on the wealthy.

So I wonder if the overreach of other policies — and the tone of some Democrats — turns many Americans off. I wonder, as Heitkamp does, if some Democrats leave these people feeling more shamed than inspired. I wonder about that word that Heitkamp kept using: judgment.

And I’m mindful that Trump often profited by caricaturing Democrats as scolds who constantly told people that they and America didn’t measure up. Trump refused to be judged. Plenty of Americans liked that.
Yup, and as usual it is a good column. Sorry I didn’t post it. A lot of good points of self-reflection and evaluation.

HH’s comment about Americans not being told what to do is frustrating. She’s certainly right. And to me it means that Americans don’t really understand that rights have corresponding duties to the other members of the social contract.
geez.......these people are so full of themselves.

It IS simple ....when elected public servants put orders in place, and don't comply themselves, should you really take them seriously? Blaming tRump, and ONLY him, for ALL the covid deaths? You think the NYTimes is looking in the mirror on that topic? geez. pathetic. Coupled with Dr. Fauci saying NOT to wear masks, when EVERYONE was pretty much locked down, watching the fear porn on infotainment , in the early stages. First impression stuff.

and nevah, not once, is the "confused" infotainment industry placing the pointer upon Biden as just Hillary-lite. Biden? The crime bill guy? You think the community that it most affected knows this? yup. Certainly his VP does :lol:
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32460
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: 2020 Elections - Banana Republicans Sore Losers

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

ABV 8.3% wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:10 am
seacoaster wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:04 am
old salt wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:56 am seacoaster -- you often post Frank Bruni of the NYT. Did you see this one ?
We Still Don’t Really Understand Trump — or America
Democrats expected better. What happened?
By Frank Bruni

Like many Americans demoralized by the softness of the spanking that voters just gave President Trump, I spent the past few days in search of answers. Why were so many of my fellow citizens so content to continue spoiling him? And what happened to the comeuppance due Republican lawmakers for not giving him timeouts?

Heidi Heitkamp, a Democrat who represented deep-red North Dakota in the Senate from 2013 to 2019, had a theory.

“Covid cut both ways,” she said when we spoke on Thursday. She noted that while Trump was supposed to be punished for his downplaying and mismanagement of the pandemic, it may have redounded to his and his party’s benefit in some fashion.

Democrats, including Joe Biden, limited public events, minimized contact with voters and rarely removed their masks. It was the morally right, responsible thing to do.

But among some Americans, Heitkamp wondered, did it come across as finger-wagging? Preachy? She wasn’t saying that Democrats should have dispensed with science and prudence. She was just trying to make sense of it all.

“People in this country don’t like being told what to do,” said Heitkamp, who knows a thing or two about Trump’s popularity between the coasts and beyond densely populated metropolises. “People don’t like being judged.” That’s why some maskless Americans lash out at the masked, she added. They regard face coverings as an “implied judgment.”

“When you aren’t out there doing the handshaking, people see that as a judgment on their behavior,” she suggested. And perhaps it played into their larger qualms about the Democratic Party as a disapproving arbiter of how they speak and how they live.

As I said, it’s a theory, one of many pinging around right now. But it’s also more than that: a reminder of how differently a given situation — or a given person, Trump being the perfect example — can play in different parts of America and among different groups of Americans. Those of us surprised by Trump’s and the Republican Party’s showing in this election keep being blinded by our arrogance. We keep extrapolating from our own perceptions.

Of course Trump lost in the end, no matter what nonsense he continues to spew. Biden has now secured the electoral college votes he needs — he may reach 306 when all is said and done — and he’s on track to win the popular vote by perhaps five million ballots or more. Most presidential elections since (and including) 2000 have been closer than that.

But many battleground states were squeakers. The predicted Democratic takeover of the Senate looks unlikely: It requires victories in both Georgia runoffs. And the Democrats’ House majority shrank.

How? Since Democrats’ strong showing in the 2018 midterms, Trump was impeached. A plague struck. Tens of millions of Americans lost their jobs and huge chunks of their savings. Trump responded with tantrums, lies and intensified attacks on democratic traditions.

That Democrats didn’t triumph even bigger in 2020 seems impossible — unless and until you do what Heitkamp did and re-examine your assumptions through a lens other than the one you’re partial to.

Before Election Day, I kept hearing, reading and thinking that Trump was self-destructing. Watch how he set himself on fire in the first debate. Look at his ludicrously theatrical return to the White House after being hospitalized with Covid-19. Marvel at the fight he picked with Lesley Stahl. Something was wrong.

But other things were right. Those of us obsessed with what a miserable person he is lost sight of what a mighty candidate he is.

“I’ll make a declarative statement,” Doug Sosnik, a Democratic strategist who was the political director in President Bill Clinton’s White House, told me. “There has never been a person in history who got elected for president owing fewer people. Trump didn’t get elected because of his campaign organization. He didn’t get elected because of endorsements. He didn’t get elected because of donors. He did the whole thing on his own. That’s a spectacular political achievement, as much as I dislike him.”

And Trump 2016 lived in Trump 2020. He demonstrated the same knack for correctly identifying and mercilessly exploiting his opponents’ vulnerabilities. (He’s like a sadist who knows precisely where to press his finger to cause the most excruciating pain.) This time around, that meant a warning that Democrats — and, by extension, Biden — were in thrall to socialism, intent on enfeebling the police and about to abolish anything and everything that runs on fossil fuel.

Overblown? Absolutely. But what mattered was that it seemed to resonate with some voters, probably because of other developments between 2018 and now. A group of House Democrats unveiled the Green New Deal, with its astronomical price tag and dizzying reach. The party held a presidential primary in which, at the start, most contenders called for the decriminalization of unauthorized border crossings and health insurance for undocumented immigrants.

And some of the party’s freshest and, as it happens, most progressive faces became brand-defining stars. During much of the past two years, Trump trained his fire not only on the Democrats who might get the party’s presidential nomination but also on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar.

During an intensely emotional, three-hour conference call for House Democrats on Thursday, some moderates complained that the party had left itself open to attack.

“We need to not ever use the words ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again,” Representative Abigail Spanberger of Virginia admonished her colleagues, according to an article in The Washington Post by Rachel Bade and Erica Werner.

Many political analysts have attributed the defeat of two Democratic House incumbents in the Miami area to voters’ concerns that the party had moved too far left.

That dynamic may also have helped Representative Steve Chabot, an Ohio Republican, prevail over his Democratic challenger, Kate Schroder, in a race in the Cincinnati area that The Cook Political Report had labeled a tossup. Corry Bliss, a Republican strategist who consulted on Chabot’s campaign, noted that Chabot, in his ads, hung the Green New Deal around Schroder’s neck. He ended up winning by more than seven percentage points.

“In the eyes of the suburban voter, the Democratic Party of 2020 was much more radical than the Democratic Party of 2018,” Bliss told me. “In 2018, it was a brand-new candidate with no record who wanted you to have better health care. In 2020, it was Bernie Sanders, Liz Warren and A.O.C.”

But politics is complicated: In some places, that reorientation benefited the Democratic Party, which is left with the paradox that the very priorities that most excite its base give serious pause to swing voters and potential converts. Biden, for example, performed much better in the suburbs of Detroit that are represented in Congress by Rashida Tlaib, one of Ocasio-Cortez’s close allies in the House, than Hillary Clinton had, and the turnout of progressive voters there was a critical building block of his victory in Michigan, which Clinton narrowly lost.

What’s uncomplicated is Trump’s mastery of one of the most potent political tricks: whipping people up. Love him or hate him, he’s mesmerizing.

“He’s got this swagger,” Heitkamp said. “If you read the stories about the rallies, they sound like fun events. People have fun there. That’s one thing the Democratic Party should take from Donald Trump.”

And in the final weeks of the campaign, Trump was able to dominate the stage, because Biden, concerned about the safety of big events, ceded it. That was its own considered political statement, its own strategy, but it’s not easy for absence to compete with presence. Quiet with loud. Prohibition with permission.

Trump committed to a furious schedule of his signature rallies in the homestretch, and, ever shameless, exploited Americans’ fears of new shutdowns amid an uptick of coronavirus infections by saying that he would liberate the economy while Biden would strangle it. According to a survey conducted by The Associated Press, 50 percent of voters who made their decisions in the days or minutes before they cast their ballots chose Trump, while 38 percent chose Biden.

I found one of the most intriguing takes on Trump’s appeal in the book “Trump’s Democrats,” by the college professors Stephanie Muravchik and Jon Shields, published in late September. It closely examined voters in three communities — one in Rhode Island, one in Iowa and one in Kentucky — that were firmly Democratic until Trump came along.

And it contended that Trump’s style and character — more than his America First promises of renegotiated trade deals, a fortified southern border and new jobs — were the core of his appeal, because these voters didn’t interpret them the way his detractors did. Trump was a take-charge, take-no-prisoners badass who knew how to win: What was wrong with that? He tortured condescending elites who needed to be brought down a peg or three anyway. He lied, but in the service of standing up for himself.

If you use that Rosetta Stone for recent months, Trump’s ostensible meltdown wasn’t so slushy. His post-Covid bravado wasn’t recklessness and delusion. It was perseverance and strength. His release of “60 Minutes” interview footage before CBS aired it wasn’t puerile. It was what those priggish establishment types deserved. Trump was the enemy of these voters’ enemies, which made him their friend.

“His appeal is very identity-based,” Shields said when I touched base with him after Election Day. He added that four years into Trump’s presidency, “these voters feel a real kinship with him because he seems deeply familiar to them, and because they feel he’s one of them, they’re willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Plus, they’re listening more and more to conservative media, so a lot of their information is not inconsistent with their own intuition about him.” The devastation wrought by the coronavirus was the work of fate. Fate and the Chinese.

Shields said there were 206 counties in America that flipped from Barack Obama to Trump in 2016. Pending final results, 19 are poised to flip back to Biden. That’s partly why Biden did as well as he did, but it’s also why Trump didn’t do worse.

And it speaks to what Sosnik said may be the lesson of the 2020 returns. “A lot of people thought that Trump’s win in 2016 was a bug in the system as opposed to being a central part of the system. But he wasn’t a bug.” The racism and xenophobia that he tapped into, the conspiracies he tilled, the resentments he stoked: These weren’t one-offs, and politicians, including him, aren’t done exploiting them.

Democrats (and many Republicans) who braced for a Biden landslide forgot that an incumbent president is always at an advantage, that the economy reliably shapes presidential elections and that voters gave Trump good marks for managing it. Democrats couldn’t really change that.

But what adjustments can and should they make going forward? The 2020 election provides some validation for progressive policies: Even as voters in Florida chose Trump in greater numbers than in 2016, they approved an increase in the statewide minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2026. Voters in Arizona endorsed a tax increase on the wealthy.

So I wonder if the overreach of other policies — and the tone of some Democrats — turns many Americans off. I wonder, as Heitkamp does, if some Democrats leave these people feeling more shamed than inspired. I wonder about that word that Heitkamp kept using: judgment.

And I’m mindful that Trump often profited by caricaturing Democrats as scolds who constantly told people that they and America didn’t measure up. Trump refused to be judged. Plenty of Americans liked that.
Yup, and as usual it is a good column. Sorry I didn’t post it. A lot of good points of self-reflection and evaluation.

HH’s comment about Americans not being told what to do is frustrating. She’s certainly right. And to me it means that Americans don’t really understand that rights have corresponding duties to the other members of the social contract.
geez.......these people are so full of themselves.

It IS simple ....when elected public servants put orders in place, and don't comply themselves, should you really take them seriously? Blaming tRump, and ONLY him, for ALL the covid deaths? You think the NYTimes is looking in the mirror on that topic? geez. pathetic. Coupled with Dr. Fauci saying NOT to wear masks, when EVERYONE was pretty much locked down, watching the fear porn on infotainment , in the early stages. First impression stuff.

and nevah, not once, is the "confused" infotainment industry placing the pointer upon Biden as just Hillary-lite. Biden? The crime bill guy? You think the community that it most affected knows this? yup. Certainly his VP does :lol:
Waiting on you to deflect criticism😂😂😂
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by Farfromgeneva »

I’m sure 6ft would say this is fake news but pretty hard evidence many Dems are fairly reasonable and not all marxists OT whatever pejorative term of slander they like to toss like firebombs around.

https://www.axios.com/jim-clyburn-defun ... 76207.html
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dislaxxic
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by dislaxxic »

Bruni's column seems to be getting at a little bit of what the author in this piece writes about...maybe? The Salon writer is taking on the issue of how in the world did Trump gain in this certain segment of the electorate??

Our problems aren't just with Karens, but a nation of Meghan McCains
the left is failing to win over these women and other Trumpists not because of their passionate enthusiasm for white patriarchy, but because progressives aren't pushing a comfortable sort of identity politics – the type everyone can get behind.
[snip]
Out in the wild, many of the women holding those views tend to keep their politics to themselves because discussing such matters in company that may not share their opinions isn't polite and, indeed, may lead to irritation and bad feelings.

Not surprisingly, a lot of these folks aren't exposed to many people of color on a regular basis save for the few at work or church or who marry into their families. They may feel affection for those individuals and still vote for candidates who back policies designed to harm them because those politicians also speak to their personal beliefs and, with Trump, fears.

Since they'd rather keep their interactions polite, nobody engages them or challenges them to explain why they voted for a fascist white supremacist because I'd wager it would lead them to expose some unpleasant and impolite qualities about themselves that they can't quite defend, like their racism. To someone who supports racists while insisting she isn't racist, that's uncomfortable.

The Meghan McCains of the world deeply resent being made to feel uncomfortable.

Maybe it's time for the people who cater to them to stop feeling bad about that and thoughtfully confront them over their harmful politics and cloaked bigotry, regardless of how impolite they insist wt(heye're being in doing so. The challenge is to keep the engagement going for longer than an hour or an episode, because four years of treating our democracy like a TV show is what got us into this mess in the first place
.

This gets at what i was railing at RandyRad about...he, and others, constantly prop up the demonstrably FALSE NARRATIVE that Trumpism is...because t(he)y resent being made to feel uncomfortable...embarrassed even, at having to turn this narrative into something real.

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by DMac »

Awful lot of people came on here when Donald was elected and told us we need to forget about his past..you know the pu*sy grabbing stuff is just locker room talk, bankruptcies (when he's supposedly got so much money he can't spend it all), his shady dealing for a lifetime, infidelities, etc...and give the guy a chance in that he's duly elected so let's see how he does. We gonna give Joe that same chance or just hammer on some of the things he's done in the past that you might not like?
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by ABV 8.3% »

Binary personality politics.

If you had to pick a registered voter that is most likely to comply with government laws and procedures, who would you pick? A D or R ? As a generalization .......Archie Bunker or Meathead
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by ggait »

IMO, Bruni's hot take is pretty worthless and wrong.

Sure Rs voted against Ds. But they always do. And Bruni doesn't answer the main question -- what would ever make those Rs vote for Ds? The answer there is -- nothing.

I subscribe to the "negative partisanship" model, which explains things much much better. There's basically no swing voters -- 90% of Rs vote R, 90% of Ds vote D. People vote against the other side, not for their side. Hate produces votes, not love. So Dems should not try to convince Rs to vote for them -- they should focus on turning out their voters.

In this view, sure Trump is a jerk. But people vote for him because he hates the people they hate based on culture. And people would vote the exact same way regardless of who's running or what the policies are. We keep repeating the same election -- Whole Foods vs. Cracker Barrel over and over and over again.

Check out Rachel Bitecofer's predictions below published in January 2019. She TOTALLY nailed it almost two years ago -- a full year before anyone had heard of Covid and the economy tanked. Also before Biden even started to run. As a predicter, she runs circles around Bruni:

Why Trump Will Lose in 2020

The president is running hard on a strategy of riling up his base. But by doing that, he riles up the Democratic base, too, and that one is bigger.

By Rachel Bitecofer
Dr. Bitecofer is a professor of political science at Christopher Newport University.

Jan. 24, 2019

Why Trump Will Lose in 2020

Democrats will win big in more urban, more diverse, better-educated and more liberal-friendly states and will continue to lose ground in other states like Missouri. Although Mr. Trump may well win Ohio and perhaps even Florida again, it is not likely he will carry Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania in 2020. Look at the midterm performance of statewide Democrats in those states. And his troubles with swing voters, whom he won in 2016, will put Arizona, North Carolina and perhaps even Georgia in play for Democrats and effectively remove Virginia, Colorado, Nevada and New Hampshire from the list of swing states.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/opin ... ction.html
Last edited by ggait on Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
CU88
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by CU88 »

The number of known mail ballots in:

FL: 4,855,487 (Trump won)
PA: 2,629,342 (Biden won)
NC: 985,857 (Trump likely won)
IA: 691,544 (Trump won)
WI: 1,303,819 (Biden won)
GA: 1,543,981 (Biden won)
TX: 974,752 (Trump won)
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am
Mr moderator, deactivate my account.
You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy.
This is cradle and shoot signing out.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by ABV 8.3% »

Covid was a concern early on, correct? The Democratic POTUSA candidates were fully aware of how serious this issue was. That is why it was mentioned in the debates. Right?

Another point the NY Times glosses over, but a point many of the people I know don't forget, is that Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden's first debates, they "joked" with their elbow bumps, and NO ONE from the infotainment industry asked Biden a darn thing about it in February and March, until St. Patricks day. Don't have to rehash all the people saying to go celebrate the Chinese new year, etc.

Tough to blame tRump for covid, when the DNC machine dismissed their own covid hypocrisy and lack of action. Or poorly laid actions.....part of the TDS syndrome
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by ABV 8.3% »

ggait wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:50 am IMO, Bruni's hot take is pretty worthless and wrong.

Sure Rs voted against Ds. But they always do. And Bruni doesn't answer the main question -- what would ever make those Rs vote for Ds? The answer there is -- nothing.

I subscribe to the "negative partisanship" model, which explains things much much better. There's basically no swing voters -- 90% of Rs vote R, 90% of Ds vote D. People vote against the other side, not for their side. Hate produces votes, not love. So Dems should not try to convince Rs to vote for them -- they should focus on turning out their voters.

Check out Rachel Bitecofer's predictions below published in January 2019. She TOTALLY nailed it almost two years ago -- a full year before anyone had heard of Covid and the economy tanked. Also before Biden even started to run. As a predicter, she runs circles around Bruni:

Why Trump Will Lose in 2020

The president is running hard on a strategy of riling up his base. But by doing that, he riles up the Democratic base, too, and that one is bigger.

By Rachel Bitecofer
Dr. Bitecofer is a professor of political science at Christopher Newport University.

Jan. 24, 2019

Why Trump Will Lose in 2020

Democrats will win big in more urban, more diverse, better-educated and more liberal-friendly states and will continue to lose ground in other states like Missouri. Although Mr. Trump may well win Ohio and perhaps even Florida again, it is not likely he will carry Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania in 2020. Look at the midterm performance of statewide Democrats in those states. And his troubles with swing voters, whom he won in 2016, will put Arizona, North Carolina and perhaps even Georgia in play for Democrats and effectively remove Virginia, Colorado, Nevada and New Hampshire from the list of swing states.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/24/opin ... ction.html
yawn......."riling up his base" is so 80's. Find a new one Rachel.
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

CU88 wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:56 am The number of known mail ballots in:

FL: 4,855,487 (Trump won)
PA: 2,629,342 (Biden won)
NC: 985,857 (Trump likely won)
IA: 691,544 (Trump won)
WI: 1,303,819 (Biden won)
GA: 1,543,981 (Biden won)
TX: 974,752 (Trump won)
Interesting data...darn mail-in ballots...
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by ABV 8.3% »

DMac wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:45 am Awful lot of people came on here when Donald was elected and told us we need to forget about his past..you know the pu*sy grabbing stuff is just locker room talk, bankruptcies (when he's supposedly got so much money he can't spend it all), his shady dealing for a lifetime, infidelities, etc...and give the guy a chance in that he's duly elected so let's see how he does. We gonna give Joe that same chance or just hammer on some of the things he's done in the past that you might not like?
Names and examples?
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njbill
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by njbill »

CU88 wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:56 am The number of known mail ballots in:

FL: 4,855,487 (Trump won)
PA: 2,629,342 (Biden won)
NC: 985,857 (Trump likely won)
IA: 691,544 (Trump won)
WI: 1,303,819 (Biden won)
GA: 1,543,981 (Biden won)
TX: 974,752 (Trump won)
Yeah, but how many of them were junk mail ballots?
ggait
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Re: 2020 Elections - Donald Trump Gets FIRED.

Post by ggait »

yawn......."riling up his base" is so 80's. Find a new one Rachel.
I'd encourage you to actually read this. The predictions, made two year in advance, are pretty much 100% correct. When someone sees the future with that precision, it merits attention.

And it isn't about riling up your base, which can be done 20 different ways. The key insight is that people vote out of hate, not love. The R base doesn't love Trump -- but they really hate Dems.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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