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Prime Minister Theresa May's Brexit plan got voted down with a resounding no today in Parliament. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... itics-live

Wish we had UKLaxFan around to give us some info from that side of the pond. It will be interesting to see what happens moving forward. I thought Brexit was a terrible idea, but that's just me.

Steve Bannon, Vladimir Putin and Cambridge Analytica thought it was brilliant. Of course Ireland is divided again. Sorry about that. America needs to widen the lens.

What now?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... may-errors

"But such are these extraordinary times, that is not even the most significant story from tonightWestminster last. What matters more than the fate of this government or this prime minister is the fate of the country and its decision to leave the European Union, which is now suspended in a state of limbo if not purgatory. The law says Britain will leave the EU in 70-odd days. Yet tonight it has rejected the only firm exit path that exists. It means that, unless something changes and MPs can reach an agreement with each other, Britain will crash out of the EU on 29 March without a deal – an outcome all but the most wild-eyed Brexiteers regard as an economic and social catastrophe for these islands."

I am still stupefied by Britain's decision to leave the EU.

It seems to me, from this side of the Atlantic but having worked for and managed people in London, that the issue comes down to self-rule. If there is one thing our culture inherited from its "father" it is a insatiable need for (at least the feeling of) independence.

The EU has been eating up national sovereignty the same way the Fed power grew here in the US - through various forms of "commerce clause" type regulating. I believe that your average Brit couldn't take it any more.

Since the average Brit's "betters" in Parliament think the voters got it wrong, and the whacko's in Parliament think May isn't going far enough --- they have a mess on their hands.

Will there be a no-confidence vote today? I assume May will survive...because no one else really wants this job right now.

I do think that the original Brexit vote -- stay or leave -- is a pretty good example of why direct democracy on questions of policy, with a zillion variables that no one can fully understand, is perilous stuff.

seacoaster wrote:Will there be a no-confidence vote today? I assume May will survive...because no one else really wants this job right now.

I do think that the original Brexit vote -- stay or leave -- is a pretty good example of why direct democracy on questions of policy, with a zillion variables that no one can fully understand, is perilous stuff.

Just remember that when the Dems start screaming again for the removal of the electoral college......

I'm a Democrat and am unconvinced that elimination of the EC is a good idea. But elections of people to roles, it seems to me, ought to generally be by direct democratic vote. The Brexit vote was a vote on a world, a galaxy of policy issues, and relegating it to a yes vs. no question to the populace seems kind of crazy. And of course, I can't help being influenced by the mindf*ck going on in the UK now.

seacoaster wrote:I'm a Democrat and am unconvinced that elimination of the EC is a good idea. But elections of people to roles, it seems to me, ought to generally be by direct democratic vote. The Brexit vote was a vote on a world, a galaxy of policy issues, and relegating it to a yes vs. no question to the populace seems kind of crazy. And of course, I can't help being influenced by the mindf*ck going on in the UK now.

actually the Brexit vote was simple - home rule or rule by regulatory fiat out of Brussels. The complicated part was how to accomplish the will of the people as smoothly as possible. That is where the elected officials failed.

A brief summary of the situation, which was written before the one-sided vote yesterday that trashed May's deal...

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HooDat wrote:

seacoaster wrote:Will there be a no-confidence vote today? I assume May will survive...because no one else really wants this job right now.

I do think that the original Brexit vote -- stay or leave -- is a pretty good example of why direct democracy on questions of policy, with a zillion variables that no one can fully understand, is perilous stuff.

Just remember that when the Dems start screaming again for the removal of the electoral college......

Or Beto tells us our 230 year old Constitution is too out of date to govern our 21st century global empire.

HooDat wrote: The complicated part was how to accomplish the will of the people as smoothly as possible. That is where the elected officials failed.

Perhaps the task-----making exit painless-----is an impossible task?

Lesson: don't vote for Brexit without an actual plan.

a fan wrote:

HooDat wrote: The complicated part was how to accomplish the will of the people as smoothly as possible. That is where the elected officials failed.

Perhaps the task-----making exit painless-----is an impossible task?

Lesson: don't vote for Brexit without an actual plan.

I never said painless, I said as smooth as possible. Don't underestimate the voters - they knew what they were asking for. They may have even been willing to take a little hit to get it. Brits are stubbornly independent people (at least in their minds).

And no one took into consideration the return of a hard border in Northern Ireland. There is a fortune of commerce that goes on between the two on a daily basis. Dairy and clothing to name just two. Back and forth on a single day. Workers from Northern Ireland and the Republic drive across daily. With Brexit the discussion of absorbing the Protestant North into the Catholic republic will return. We all know how well that has gone in the past.

HooDat wrote:Don't underestimate the voters - they knew what they were asking for.

It seems we probably need to allow for the possibility that British voters knew what they were asking for in the same way some American voters thought they knew what they were getting when they pulled the lever for Donald J. Trump.

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"Don't underestimate the voters - they knew what they were asking for."

No way, no how. It is now very clear that very few Exit voters understood anything more than a jingoistic sense of "I want to protect England's sovereignty" and "I don't like free movement across the Channel." They had very little to no idea of the complexities associated with disentangling the British economy from the rest of the EU. This is why, for example, the customs union is still a big issue -- because few rank and file voters favoring Exit understood it then.

seacoaster wrote:I'm a Democrat and am unconvinced that elimination of the EC is a good idea.

An intermediate step would be to change the number of electors per state to equal the number of representatives in the House, rather than that plus two (as it is now), which greatly distorts the power of a vote in a small state.

But that will never happen either.

seacoaster wrote:No way, no how. It is now very clear that very few Exit voters understood anything

you conflate understanding with giving a crap.

right or wrong, the vast majority of voters don't care about all those details. and before everyone starts coming at me, i am not defending them, I am explaining them.

parliament loves the idea of subcontracting out governing the country to Brussels, that way both houses can pretend they are the house of lords and scream at eachotehr all day while doing nothing....

Respectfully, I don't think I'm conflating any such thing. And what you say -- " the vast majority of voters don't care about all those details" -- seems to buttress what I'm saying. We started this conversation with you saying "call me a cynic." And I did. And suggesting that Parliament loves the idea of subcontracting governmental functions to Brussels seems to cross that border. Just an observation; not an indictment.

Without meaning to "come at you" hoodog, don't you think there's a little bit of "defending" going on when you kinda justify the referendum's success the first time by now taking a kinda macro standpoint of "well, they made the right choice because it's just because of, you know, they want to protect their sovereignty".

That's obviously NOT all it's about, right?

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HooDat wrote:I never said painless, I said as smooth as possible. Don't underestimate the voters - they knew what they were asking for. They may have even been willing to take a little hit to get it. Brits are stubbornly independent people (at least in their minds).

Sorry, wasn't clear----I meant the Brexit political leaders, not the people themselves.

And I don't agree that the the British people who voted to leave understand the economic consequences of their choice.