IL midseason AA list

[molo]

Mikey W. not first team? Some antiCAA bias maybe? Cant think of a CV middie who means more to his team.

[molo]

The omission of Wayer stands out, especially considering that someone who has been playing close d for a rival ACC team was recognized as HM at pole. I realize that defensive midfield can be tough to evaluate, but this oversight seems to be the result of nane recognition over actual performance.

[molo]

My mistake. I missed Wayer the first time I looked at the list.

[random observer]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UVA), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

[Farfromgeneva]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UV), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

As of today Sam Kins has a better profile YTD than Malone. Even if he is second team this year, unless Harvard doughnuts the rest of the season it seems like he’s worthy of finsodesstom

[random observer]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UV), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

As of today Sam Kins has a better profile YTD than Malone. Even if he is second team this year, unless Harvard doughnuts the rest of the season it seems like he’s worthy of finsodesstom

Based on what? They're almost dead even in PPG (6.25 vs. 6). King has more GBs but Malone has fewer TOs. King has a slightly higher shooting percentage, but has a slightly higher percentage of his SOG saved. Really hard to make a case that either clearly has a better profile than the other. Ultimately I went with Malone because he's had nearly identical production but he's played a tougher schedule.

[The Orfling]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UVA), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

Good list. One small note/question — I know inside lacrosse lists Patrick Hackler as a ssdm, but he basically runs with one of the offensive midfield lines and stays on as a 2-way middie on some rotations, I believe. For me, a 2-way middie might be in a little bit of a different category than someone playing the more defensive classic ssdm role, but I guess categorizing them in the ssdm category is fair given that a 2-way guy like Hackler does a fair amount of defensive coverage. (Yale is fairly deep with offensive midfielders, and might actually do better if they did use Hackler solely as a ssdm, but that would be tough given his offensive skill set.)

[random observer]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UVA), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

Good list. One small note/question — I know inside lacrosse lists Patrick Hackler as a ssdm, but he basically runs with one of the offensive midfield lines and stays on as a 2-way middie on some rotations, I believe. For me, a 2-way middie might be in a little bit of a different category than someone playing the more defensive classic ssdm role, but I guess categorizing them in the ssdm category is fair given that a 2-way guy like Hackler does a fair amount of defensive coverage. (Yale is fairly deep with offensive midfielders, and might actually do better if they did use Hackler solely as a ssdm, but that would be tough given his offensive skill set.)

Definitely a different type of SSDM, but I feel like it's still the right classification for him in the absence of a true two way category. He's not quite getting Ryan Conrad amounts of offensive shifts. I kinda tried to pair a more offensive/transition minded SSDM with a more defensive one on each team. Maguire on the first team definitely will be aggressive across midfield if he has space or an offensive guy trapped with him. Peters seems to always have the green light in transition: he has identical scoring production to one of Navy's starting attackmen.

[The Orfling]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UVA), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

Good list. One small note/question — I know inside lacrosse lists Patrick Hackler as a ssdm, but he basically runs with one of the offensive midfield lines and stays on as a 2-way middie on some rotations, I believe. For me, a 2-way middie might be in a little bit of a different category than someone playing the more defensive classic ssdm role, but I guess categorizing them in the ssdm category is fair given that a 2-way guy like Hackler does a fair amount of defensive coverage. (Yale is fairly deep with offensive midfielders, and might actually do better if they did use Hackler solely as a ssdm, but that would be tough given his offensive skill set.)

Definitely a different type of SSDM, but I feel like it's still the right classification for him in the absence of a true two way category. He's not quite getting Ryan Conrad amounts of offensive shifts. I kinda tried to pair a more offensive/transition minded SSDM with a more defensive one on each team. Maguire on the first team definitely will be aggressive across midfield if he has space or an offensive guy trapped with him. Peters seems to always have the green light in transition: he has identical scoring production to one of Navy's starting attackmen.

Makes sense. Nice job — I think your list is superior to Inside lacrosse’s.

[10stone5]

Matt Traynor is playing attack.

[Farfromgeneva]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UV), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

As of today Sam Kins has a better profile YTD than Malone. Even if he is second team this year, unless Harvard doughnuts the rest of the season it seems like he’s worthy of finsodesstom

Based on what? They're almost dead even in PPG (6.25 vs. 6). King has more GBs but Malone has fewer TOs. King has a slightly higher shooting percentage, but has a slightly higher percentage of his SOG saved. Really hard to make a case that either clearly has a better profile than the other. Ultimately I went with Malone because he's had nearly identical production but he's played a tougher schedule.

You don’t have to explain your thinking but are you pounding the table for “slightly higher % of shots saved” in your argument to make a strong case?

But your data not counting your eyeball test which may be what your actually using given the (I can’t see all games comment it sort of implies this isn’t actually data driven before you dropped your list but the. Are making a quantitative augment now).

But you said high PPG and GBs and PSIs tighter schedules but Harvards got that clean Mich win before we get into conference play which probably
Litigates and SOS delta.

So you come out how so to my comment and then give data that supported me. And I think GB number is important. Based on what-well the first two primary data points of POG and GBs are better. I think you made my case.

[random observer]

Definitely a lot of name brand selections occurring. For example, I love Graham Bundy, but Aidan Carroll has clearly been Georgetown's best offensive player this year (and he is also the exact same hybrid as Bundy -- a middie playing on the attack line to stay on the field, but operating above the cage a ton). I also agree with Molo in that Weisshaar is a first teamer for sure. Overall though it's not a terrible list. My picks based on IL's structure (certainly not the gospel as I can't watch enough games to evaluate every player beyond the box score):

First Team:
A: Connor Shellenberger (UV), Matt Brandau (Yale), TJ Malone (PSU)
M: Mikey Weisshaar (Towson), Matt Traynor (PSU), Shane Knobloch (Rutgers)
FO: Will Coletti (Army)
LSM: Jake Piseno (Albany)
SSDM: Aidan Maguire (Duke), Beau Pederson (Michigan)
D: AJ Pilate (Army), Ajax Zappitello (Maryland), Kenny Brower (Duke)
G: Emmett Carroll (Penn)

Second Team:
A: Brennan O'Neill (Duke), C.J. Kirst (Cornell), Sam King (Harvard)
M: Evan Plunkett (Army), Aidan Carroll (Georgetown), Jordan Faison (ND)
FO: Jake Naso (Duke)
LSM: Stephen Zupicich (Villanova)
SSDM: Ben Ramsey (ND), Patrick Hackler (Yale)
D: Cole Kastner (UVA), Scott Smith (JHU), Brendan Levelle (Penn)
G: Patrick Jamieson (Duke)

Third Team:
A: Pat Kavanagh (ND), Josh Zwada (Duke), Joey Spallina (Syracuse)
M: Devon McLane (ND), Michael Leo (Syracuse), Hunter Drouin (Colgate)
FO: Nathan Laliberte (Bryant)
LSM: Ben Wayer (UVA)
SSDM: Jackson Peters (Navy), Chase Yeager (UVA)
D: Jackson Bonitz (Navy), Patrick Pisano (Yale), Alex Ross (PSU)
G: Will Mark (Syracuse)

As of today Sam Kins has a better profile YTD than Malone. Even if he is second team this year, unless Harvard doughnuts the rest of the season it seems like he’s worthy of finsodesstom

Based on what? They're almost dead even in PPG (6.25 vs. 6). King has more GBs but Malone has fewer TOs. King has a slightly higher shooting percentage, but has a slightly higher percentage of his SOG saved. Really hard to make a case that either clearly has a better profile than the other. Ultimately I went with Malone because he's had nearly identical production but he's played a tougher schedule.

You don’t have to explain your thinking but are you pounding the table for “slightly higher % of shots saved” in your argument to make a strong case?

But your data not counting your eyeball test which may be what your actually using given the (I can’t see all games comment it sort of implies this isn’t actually data driven before you dropped your list but the. Are making a quantitative augment now).

But you said high PPG and GBs and PSIs tighter schedules but Harvards got that clean Mich win before we get into conference play which probably
Litigates and SOS delta.

So you come out how so to my comment and then give data that supported me. And I think GB number is important. Based on what-well the first two primary data points of POG and GBs are better. I think you made my case.

IMO shooting percentage is an incomplete look at how effective a shooter is. In a vacuum, a shot that misses the cage is relatively harmless, but a shot that is saved is effectively a turnover. A 30% shooter who scores on 75% of the shots they put on cage is more valuable than a 40% shooter who only converts 50% of the shots they put on cage: if both shoot the ball 100 times, the former will score 10 fewer goals, but have 30 fewer shots that end a possession (i.e. TOs).

I can't pretend I've done the analysis to contextualize how to weight the importance of overall shooting percentage vs. shooting percentage for SOG, but in the context of Malone vs. King, it's relevant to point out that King's slightly higher shooting percentage is canceled out by Malone's slightly higher percentage for SOG.

As for GBs, they are very important because they sustain possessions. But in the same vein TOs are important because they end possessions. King is higher in the former, Malone in the latter. And for PPG, King's slightly higher PPG really equates to two extra points scored over the course of 7 games -- not really a meaningful difference.

All this is to say that they are very even, but I think Malone has faced a harder schedule which is why I put him on the first team. I try not to over index on the eye test because it opens up all sorts of biases (I also don't have the bandwidth to watch every game; frankly I've watched more of King because I have ESPN+ but not the Big Ten Network), but SOS feels like a good way to go a little deeper than the pure numbers. Harvard's Michigan win is good, but PSU overall has played a deeper schedule. Harvard has Providence, Merrimack, Bucknell and Vermont on the schedule whereas for PSU the only teams they've played that are on that tier are Marquette and Stony Brook (and Malone missed the Stony Brook game).

[Farfromgeneva]

Yeah I get it hence the you didn’t need to explain but you also are incomplete you have to adjust for rebound goals against specific opponents and ea bunch of other variables and error squared and I knew you weren’t doing all that so you’re kind of assuming his saved goals have some different value without actually demonstrating that

It’s fine it’s your list. I said as of now I’d had king above Malone. If you had basically said agree to disagree I would’ve been fine. The rest of this is kind of unnecessary and not really compelling. The Mich win is probably as good as any of PSUs to date and they don’t win without king.