Tewaaraton Award 2024

[blue angels]

One question. People are saying Brandau, without his familiar other strong attack comrades gets more of the offense running throug his crosse. Hence inflated numbers. IMO makes little sense, as it also means that opposing defenses give him bonus attention. IMO, being the highest per game scorer in DI with that attention means he is having an epic season.

+1

I’m generally of the opinion that Shellenberger got hosed last year and deserved the Tewaaraton and not O’Neil, so I’ve been thinking the committee might make it up to him this year. And certainly, Shellenberger has played well enough to earn it this year. Plus his team is rolling.

That all said, right now I think it’s Brandau’s to lose.

They interviewed Shellenberger recently and he said the Title is by far the most important thing left for him to accomplish. He will be satisfied, only, if that happens again.

[PulpExposure]

But that's also a double edged sword. His numbers will be inflated because he's just asked to do more than Shellenberger or Kavanaugh, for example, because he has less surrounding talent right now. He's taken 20 more shots than Shellenberger, for example, and Shelly has played in one less game. Brandau's shooting percentage this year is actually lower than his career average; it's not efficient production, it's volume oriented.

Right now, Brandau has a higher shooting percentage than Shellenberger, Kavanagh, ONeill, and Kirst, but you're penalizing him because he's shot better earlier in his career?

Kirst is ahead of him (.354 to .349). And no, I'm not penalizing him at all, my point is just that the guy is not having some incredibly efficient shooting year for him. He's just shooting more.

[Finster]

But that's also a double edged sword. His numbers will be inflated because he's just asked to do more than Shellenberger or Kavanaugh, for example, because he has less surrounding talent right now. He's taken 20 more shots than Shellenberger, for example, and Shelly has played in one less game. Brandau's shooting percentage this year is actually lower than his career average; it's not efficient production, it's volume oriented.

Right now, Brandau has a higher shooting percentage than Shellenberger, Kavanagh, ONeill, and Kirst, but you're penalizing him because he's shot better earlier in his career?

Kirst is ahead of him (.354 to .349). And no, I'm not penalizing him at all, my point is just that the guy is not having some incredibly efficient shooting year for him. He's just shooting more.

It looks like Brandau and Kirst are weirdly even in every statistical category except one: Brandau is FAR AHEAD of Kirst on points and points per game.

TO's, GB's, shooting %'s, etc all look about even. But Brandau is at 68 points to Kirst's 46, which may have a lot to do with team necessity rather than individual skill. Still, Brandau appears to be running away with the points per game lead (Spallina I believe is highest overall D1 points by 2 points, but he also has 3 more games under his belt and a lower PPG than Brandau).

[Hooz123]

Brandau puts up a lot of points, yes. He is also extremely talented and integral to Yale's success, sure. Brandau is the focal point of their offense by a country mile, and Yale plays 8 teams outside (and deep) of the Top 20. 8 . Their toughest opponent is Denver. Should he be penalized - or benefit- from either)? Not necessarily.

On the other hand, UVa plays 5 teams in the Top 8 and Shelly is surrounded by the game's top goal scorer and his own heir apparent in Millon, along with countless top 50, 60 guys on the next line(s). The #2 recruit (Truitt) can't even get PT. In their offense, you could argue Shelly is the third option as a goal scorer. Should he be penalized because he has a completely different context and role as opposed to Brandau?

I see the stats and I watch the highlights. If you are giving the award to the most outstanding lacrosse player, you can't sit here and tell me Shelly is not the more outstanding all-around player. Period. You have to wonder what Shelly - a guy who single-handedly took over as a freshman and won a title- would be doing at Yale.

I guess I'm biased.

[The Orfling]

Brandau puts up a lot of points, yes. He is also extremely talented and integral to Yale's success, sure. Brandau is the focal point of their offense by a country mile, and Yale plays 8 teams outside (and deep) of the Top 20. 8 . Their toughest opponent is Denver. Should he be penalized - or benefit- from either)? Not necessarily.

On the other hand, UVa plays 5 teams in the Top 8 and Shelly is surrounded by the game's top goal scorer and his own heir apparent in Millon, along with countless top 50, 60 guys on the next line(s). The #2 recruit (Truitt) can't even get PT. In their offense, you could argue Shelly is the third option as a goal scorer. Should he be penalized because he has a completely different context and role as opposed to Brandau?

I see the stats and I watch the highlights. If you are giving the award to the most outstanding lacrosse player, you can't sit here and tell me Shelly is not the more outstanding all-around player. Period. You have to wonder what Shelly - a guy who single-handedly took over as a freshman and won a title- would be doing at Yale.

I guess I'm biased.

I don't think you're biased in being #TeamShelly -- he's an amazing player and has had an awesome career with more to come. UVA's legitimate chance to win it all (or at least get to Memorial Day weekend) will give Shelly the chance to win the Tewaaraton (and I still think he and PKav have the best chance at this point).

I'm not sure about your strength of schedule argument, though, at least if we're looking at the stats to date?

Fair enough that UVA by the end of the season will have played 5 teams that as of today are in the top 8 in the media poll (ND, Hop, UMD, Syracuse, Duke) so it does have a tougher top end of the schedule than Yale but UVA also plays six unranked teams (Robert Morris, Drexel, Albany, UNC, Ohio State, Michigan). Looking at the stats where they stand today, UVA has played 11 games so far, with 5 against top 20 teams and 6 against unranked teams: 2 in the top 5 (Hop and UMD) and 3 in the top 20 (Harvard, Towson, and Richmond). Three tough games coming up against ND, Syracuse, and Duke will give UVA a total of 8 top 20 games.

I was not sure where you were looking in arguing that Yale has 8 games against non-top 20 opponents? In fact, it's the reverse -- if the current rankings held out of 14 total games Yale will play 8 against top 20 teams, 6 against non-top 20 teams. Looking at where things stand today, in its 10 games so far, Yale has played 7 total top 20 teams: 2 in the top 10 (Cornell and Denver); 3 in the top 15 (Penn State, Penn, and BU); and 2 in the top 20 (Harvard and Colgate). Yale's schedule gets easier than UVA's coming up (only 1 top 15 opponent remaining) but if the current rankings stayed in place Yale by the season's end will have 2 games against top 10 opponents; 4 games against top 15 opponents; 2 games against top 20 opponents.

Big picture I'm not arguing against the indisputable facts that Shelly is amazing, and with this stretch of juicy ACC games coming up, plus the ACC tournament, plus UVA likely going deep in the tournament or winning it all, he has a great path to the Tewey and would be incredibly deserving. But in the 10 games so far in which Brandau has played and put up his 6.8 points per game average, Yale wasn't playing a bunch of tomato cans.

[Chousnake]

Double post

[Chousnake]

They interviewed Shellenberger recently and he said the Title is by far the most important thing left for him to accomplish. He will be satisfied, only, if that happens again.
[/quote]


Every single player competing for the award and the fans of the team they play for would say the same thing

[Hooz123]

Brandau puts up a lot of points, yes. He is also extremely talented and integral to Yale's success, sure. Brandau is the focal point of their offense by a country mile, and Yale plays 8 teams outside (and deep) of the Top 20. 8 . Their toughest opponent is Denver. Should he be penalized - or benefit- from either)? Not necessarily.

On the other hand, UVa plays 5 teams in the Top 8 and Shelly is surrounded by the game's top goal scorer and his own heir apparent in Millon, along with countless top 50, 60 guys on the next line(s). The #2 recruit (Truitt) can't even get PT. In their offense, you could argue Shelly is the third option as a goal scorer. Should he be penalized because he has a completely different context and role as opposed to Brandau?

I see the stats and I watch the highlights. If you are giving the award to the most outstanding lacrosse player, you can't sit here and tell me Shelly is not the more outstanding all-around player. Period. You have to wonder what Shelly - a guy who single-handedly took over as a freshman and won a title- would be doing at Yale.

I guess I'm biased.

I don't think you're biased in being #TeamShelly -- he's an amazing player and has had an awesome career with more to come. UVA's legitimate chance to win it all (or at least get to Memorial Day weekend) will give Shelly the chance to win the Tewaaraton (and I still think he and PKav have the best chance at this point).

I'm not sure about your strength of schedule argument, though, at least if we're looking at the stats to date?

Fair enough that UVA by the end of the season will have played 5 teams that as of today are in the top 8 in the media poll (ND, Hop, UMD, Syracuse, Duke) so it does have a tougher top end of the schedule than Yale but UVA also plays six unranked teams (Robert Morris, Drexel, Albany, UNC, Ohio State, Michigan). Looking at the stats where they stand today, UVA has played 11 games so far, with 5 against top 20 teams and 6 against unranked teams: 2 in the top 5 (Hop and UMD) and 3 in the top 20 (Harvard, Towson, and Richmond). Three tough games coming up against ND, Syracuse, and Duke will give UVA a total of 8 top 20 games.

I was not sure where you were looking in arguing that Yale has 8 games against non-top 20 opponents? In fact, it's the reverse -- if the current rankings held out of 14 total games Yale will play 8 against top 20 teams, 6 against non-top 20 teams. Looking at where things stand today, in its 10 games so far, Yale has played 7 total top 20 teams: 2 in the top 10 (Cornell and Denver); 3 in the top 15 (Penn State, Penn, and BU); and 2 in the top 20 (Harvard and Colgate). Yale's schedule gets easier than UVA's coming up (only 1 top 15 opponent remaining) but if the current rankings stayed in place Yale by the season's end will have 2 games against top 10 opponents; 4 games against top 15 opponents; 2 games against top 20 opponents.

Big picture I'm not arguing against the indisputable facts that Shelly is amazing, and with this stretch of juicy ACC games coming up, plus the ACC tournament, plus UVA likely going deep in the tournament or winning it all, he has a great path to the Tewey and would be incredibly deserving. But in the 10 games so far in which Brandau has played and put up his 6.8 points per game average, Yale wasn't playing a bunch of tomato cans.

Yes, you're right. I used RPI/SOS, etc., not pure rankings, my fault. The general point remains: Yale plays an easier schedule against teams that have less talent across the field week in and week out (that's going to piss off all the Ivies, but top to bottom it's a fact). That's undeniable. If UVa makes it to the final four weekend, it's a wrap for Shelly. They messed up last year by giving it to Brennan. Dude's a four-year 1st AA, UVa points leader, title under his belt already, and undeniably one of the greatest ambassadors for the game on and off the field, and he's still in college. I honestly can't remember a time when it was any more obvious and in the bag. Unless Shelly goes pointless over multiple games or they lose in the first round, I'd bet the farm. He did not have a covid-year, he did everything in four years.

[Hooz123]

Not to mention the kid was 1st team AA at midfield and attack, and being hobbled with leg injuries the past two seasons. Give me a break! Even if he doesn't win the chip this year, he's already one of the greatest college players of all time. If he wins the chip (and, of course, corresponding Tew), he's in the conversation as the best college player ever. He's got the stats and play this year to win it outright on merit, but on the other side of the conversation...are we really going to waste an opportunity to solidify Shelly's legacy - it's good for the sport. Formalize it and elevate him for the records as one of the most decorated players ever... where he truly belongs. People don't come around like him too often. So, you have Shelly, and then who? Kav? Yea super talented, also known as a borderline dirty player and public at-large can't stand him or ND. Sometimes politics is important. No way in hell Shelly won't get it when you factor in all the elements, cynical or not, this stuff is real.

At this point, it's Shell'ys to lose and I don't think it's very close. You have the proverbial hero in Shelly, the villain in Kav, the one-dimensional underperforming incumbent, and the Superman who plays on a mid-major that America doesn't see except the die-hards, no offense to Yale this year, but it is what it is.

[n3f5k8z]

Considering the lively debate on the Tewaaraton Award 2024, it's clear both Brandau and Shellenberger have their unique strengths and challenges. While Brandau's scoring ability is notable, Shellenberger's all-around play in a highly competitive team context raises an important question: Should the Tewaaraton Award prioritize individual statistical achievements, or should it also consider a player's role within the context of their team's strategy and the quality of their competition?

[Hooz123]

Considering the lively debate on the Tewaaraton Award 2024, it's clear both Brandau and Shellenberger have their unique strengths and challenges. While Brandau's scoring ability is notable, Shellenberger's all-around play in a highly competitive team context raises an important question: Should the Tewaaraton Award prioritize individual statistical achievements, or should it also consider a player's role within the context of their team's strategy and the quality of their competition?

Payton Cormier would like a word...

[youthathletics]

Considering the lively debate on the Tewaaraton Award 2024, it's clear both Brandau and Shellenberger have their unique strengths and challenges. While Brandau's scoring ability is notable, Shellenberger's all-around play in a highly competitive team context raises an important question: Should the Tewaaraton Award prioritize individual statistical achievements, or should it also consider a player's role within the context of their team's strategy and the quality of their competition?

All lacrosse seems to care about is points. When the Tewaaraton goes to a non offensive player in this century, we'll know they are truly serious about the selection process.

[CU88a]

Considering the lively debate on the Tewaaraton Award 2024, it's clear both Brandau and Shellenberger have their unique strengths and challenges. While Brandau's scoring ability is notable, Shellenberger's all-around play in a highly competitive team context raises an important question: Should the Tewaaraton Award prioritize individual statistical achievements, or should it also consider a player's role within the context of their team's strategy and the quality of their competition?

All lacrosse seems to care about is points. When the Tewaaraton goes to a non offensive player in this century, we'll know they are truly serious about the selection process.

+1

[HopFan16]

It's like that in every sport, not just lacrosse.

Only one defensive player has ever won the Heisman, and he also returned kicks and played some wide receiver.

[Finster]

Considering the lively debate on the Tewaaraton Award 2024, it's clear both Brandau and Shellenberger have their unique strengths and challenges. While Brandau's scoring ability is notable, Shellenberger's all-around play in a highly competitive team context raises an important question: Should the Tewaaraton Award prioritize individual statistical achievements, or should it also consider a player's role within the context of their team's strategy and the quality of their competition?

Payton Cormier would like a word...

I don't think Cormier even made the last watchlist.

By the way, I don't know if this is a first, but of the five finalists last year (2023), only Dordevic is not around for this year's award. Shellenberger, Kirst, Kavanaugh, and O'Neill are back this year.

[Finster]

Not to mention the kid was 1st team AA at midfield and attack, and being hobbled with leg injuries the past two seasons. Give me a break! Even if he doesn't win the chip this year, he's already one of the greatest college players of all time. If he wins the chip (and, of course, corresponding Tew), he's in the conversation as the best college player ever. He's got the stats and play this year to win it outright on merit, but on the other side of the conversation...are we really going to waste an opportunity to solidify Shelly's legacy - it's good for the sport. Formalize it and elevate him for the records as one of the most decorated players ever... where he truly belongs. People don't come around like him too often. So, you have Shelly, and then who? Kav? Yea super talented, also known as a borderline dirty player and public at-large can't stand him or ND. Sometimes politics is important. No way in hell Shelly won't get it when you factor in all the elements, cynical or not, this stuff is real.

At this point, it's Shell'ys to lose and I don't think it's very close. You have the proverbial hero in Shelly, the villain in Kav, the one-dimensional underperforming incumbent, and the Superman who plays on a mid-major that America doesn't see except the die-hards, no offense to Yale this year, but it is what it is.

Previously I wrote "the award is Brandau's to lose", and I stand by that. But that statement is predicated on something he might not be able to deliver on: Yale must first make the tournament, then they have to probably get to Memorial Day Weekend. A betting man would concede that Shellenberger's UVA has a much more solid chance of doing that than Yale.

I still feel that Shellenberger got jobbed last year out of the award, so he had a good chance to get it this year. The problem for him has been that Brandau is playing so well, way better than expected. It's thrown a wrinkle into my previous beliefs.

[CU88a]

Not to mention the kid was 1st team AA at midfield and attack, and being hobbled with leg injuries the past two seasons. Give me a break! Even if he doesn't win the chip this year, he's already one of the greatest college players of all time. If he wins the chip (and, of course, corresponding Tew), he's in the conversation as the best college player ever. He's got the stats and play this year to win it outright on merit, but on the other side of the conversation...are we really going to waste an opportunity to solidify Shelly's legacy - it's good for the sport. Formalize it and elevate him for the records as one of the most decorated players ever... where he truly belongs. People don't come around like him too often. So, you have Shelly, and then who? Kav? Yea super talented, also known as a borderline dirty player and public at-large can't stand him or ND. Sometimes politics is important. No way in hell Shelly won't get it when you factor in all the elements, cynical or not, this stuff is real.

At this point, it's Shell'ys to lose and I don't think it's very close. You have the proverbial hero in Shelly, the villain in Kav, the one-dimensional underperforming incumbent, and the Superman who plays on a mid-major that America doesn't see except the die-hards, no offense to Yale this year, but it is what it is.

Previously I wrote "the award is Brandau's to lose", and I stand by that. But that statement is predicated on something he might not be able to deliver on: Yale must first make the tournament, then they have to probably get to Memorial Day Weekend. A betting man would concede that Shellenberger's UVA has a much more solid chance of doing that than Yale.

I still feel that Shellenberger got jobbed last year out of the award, so he had a good chance to get it this year. The problem for him has been that Brandau is playing so well, way better than expected. It's thrown a wrinkle into my previous beliefs.

If Yale fails to make final weekend, assuming Brandau continues his pace, does #41 get the Turnbull?

[Finster]

Not to mention the kid was 1st team AA at midfield and attack, and being hobbled with leg injuries the past two seasons. Give me a break! Even if he doesn't win the chip this year, he's already one of the greatest college players of all time. If he wins the chip (and, of course, corresponding Tew), he's in the conversation as the best college player ever. He's got the stats and play this year to win it outright on merit, but on the other side of the conversation...are we really going to waste an opportunity to solidify Shelly's legacy - it's good for the sport. Formalize it and elevate him for the records as one of the most decorated players ever... where he truly belongs. People don't come around like him too often. So, you have Shelly, and then who? Kav? Yea super talented, also known as a borderline dirty player and public at-large can't stand him or ND. Sometimes politics is important. No way in hell Shelly won't get it when you factor in all the elements, cynical or not, this stuff is real.

At this point, it's Shell'ys to lose and I don't think it's very close. You have the proverbial hero in Shelly, the villain in Kav, the one-dimensional underperforming incumbent, and the Superman who plays on a mid-major that America doesn't see except the die-hards, no offense to Yale this year, but it is what it is.

Previously I wrote "the award is Brandau's to lose", and I stand by that. But that statement is predicated on something he might not be able to deliver on: Yale must first make the tournament, then they have to probably get to Memorial Day Weekend. A betting man would concede that Shellenberger's UVA has a much more solid chance of doing that than Yale.

I still feel that Shellenberger got jobbed last year out of the award, so he had a good chance to get it this year. The problem for him has been that Brandau is playing so well, way better than expected. It's thrown a wrinkle into my previous beliefs.

If Yale fails to make final weekend, assuming Brandau continues his pace, does #41 get the Turnbull?

You'd have to assume so.

[Hooz123]

Considering the lively debate on the Tewaaraton Award 2024, it's clear both Brandau and Shellenberger have their unique strengths and challenges. While Brandau's scoring ability is notable, Shellenberger's all-around play in a highly competitive team context raises an important question: Should the Tewaaraton Award prioritize individual statistical achievements, or should it also consider a player's role within the context of their team's strategy and the quality of their competition?

Payton Cormier would like a word...

I don't think Cormier even made the last watchlist.

By the way, I don't know if this is a first, but of the five finalists last year (2023), only Dordevic is not around for this year's award. Shellenberger, Kirst, Kavanaugh, and O'Neill are back this year.

He didn't. I'm not advocating for him, but I will say it's criminal how overlooked he is. You're seriously telling me there are 75 other players more deserving for a watchlist than the 200+ goal scorer on Virginia? That's sort of a joke.

Felt the same way about Xander Dickson last year. Guy scores 61 goals and sets the UVa season record, not even a sniff.

[Hooz123]

Not to mention the kid was 1st team AA at midfield and attack, and being hobbled with leg injuries the past two seasons. Give me a break! Even if he doesn't win the chip this year, he's already one of the greatest college players of all time. If he wins the chip (and, of course, corresponding Tew), he's in the conversation as the best college player ever. He's got the stats and play this year to win it outright on merit, but on the other side of the conversation...are we really going to waste an opportunity to solidify Shelly's legacy - it's good for the sport. Formalize it and elevate him for the records as one of the most decorated players ever... where he truly belongs. People don't come around like him too often. So, you have Shelly, and then who? Kav? Yea super talented, also known as a borderline dirty player and public at-large can't stand him or ND. Sometimes politics is important. No way in hell Shelly won't get it when you factor in all the elements, cynical or not, this stuff is real.

At this point, it's Shell'ys to lose and I don't think it's very close. You have the proverbial hero in Shelly, the villain in Kav, the one-dimensional underperforming incumbent, and the Superman who plays on a mid-major that America doesn't see except the die-hards, no offense to Yale this year, but it is what it is.

Previously I wrote "the award is Brandau's to lose", and I stand by that. But that statement is predicated on something he might not be able to deliver on: Yale must first make the tournament, then they have to probably get to Memorial Day Weekend. A betting man would concede that Shellenberger's UVA has a much more solid chance of doing that than Yale.

I still feel that Shellenberger got jobbed last year out of the award, so he had a good chance to get it this year. The problem for him has been that Brandau is playing so well, way better than expected. It's thrown a wrinkle into my previous beliefs.

Again, there is some bias here, I get it, but this is largely philosophical. I just don't see how the award is "Brandau's to lose"....Simply because he's putting up so many points? With the exception of 2-3 games, Yale is barely pulling out Ws.Excluding Hopkins and Harvard, UVa is on auto-pilot for 1-2 full quarters per game. Is it Shelly's fault that he doesn't have to fight tooth and nail down to the last minute?