All Things Russia & Ukraine

[cradleandshoot]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Wrongo bucko, your confusing defeatism with realism. Ukraine is now involved in a war of attrition with an enemy that has damn near unlimited resources. You remember your kin folk fighting in gray as tenacious and dedicated as they were couldn't defeat my kin folk dressed in blue. You can call it defeatism but if you think Ukraine can win this war you are fooling yourself. That is just you being you. I give the Ukrainian military all the credit in the world. They are putting up a heroic effort. OS has tried to point out to you to no avail that Ukraine is running out of infantry. The majority of their front line infantry are on the wrong side of 40. I can say this from my own personal experience as a dog faced former airborne infantry soldier. This is a young mans business. I was 20 years old and the training we did kicked my freaking ass on a regular basis. There is a term for it that any army general is terrified of. It is called being combat ineffective. That is when casualties and time spent in never ending firefights takes its toll. All of the billions of dollars in anticipated new ordnance can't correct that problem. How well would you function MD if you went for a week with almost no sleep. I've been down that road and it wears you down in a manner you don't understand. It's not about being a tough guy. You familiar with what the 2000 yard stare is? Look it up.

[old salt]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Pull your head out & get a grip.
Look where your 2+ years of happy talk & name calling have brought us.
You can't be defeated if you're not in the game....yet.
A stupid war. We led the Ukrainians to the slaughter.

Yes, defeatism has been consistently strong. On numerous topics.

With regard to Ukraine specifically, very defeatist, always the negative never the positive. Always woe is me, Ukraine with the aid of the West can’t possibly withstand and pushback Russia (and why would we even want to stop Russian expansion?). We need to spend massive amounts of money on our military of course, but why would we care about a white Christian authoritarian kleptocracy expanding toward our treaty allies? Those Euroburghers are a bunch of socialists not really our allies.

And those Ukrainians are really a bunch of corrupt Nazis secretly allied with Democrats against our Leader.

So, let’s go back on our promises to support Ukraine’s defense of its sovereignty and early stage democracy against a murderous much larger and heavily armed neighbor.

MAGA

Blah. Blah Blah. NeoCon Ideological claptrap. Look at the results on the ground. Realism is not defeatism.

We don't have the capacity to give Ukraine what they need. We haven't from the start.
The costly, ill conceived, Hail Mary counteroffensive failed.
You can't make a speech, dump billions of $$$ on it & then expect immediate results.
Magical thinking.You believed our propaganda.

Look at the air defense munitions expended in defending Israel for just one night.
We've given Ukraine just 1 US Patriot battery. Their F-16 pilots are still in AZ learning how to fly & fight their new (used) jets.

What's Biden's plan ? He's not telling us. You just spout political talking points with no basis in reality.

[old salt]

Iran and company aren't stupid. They are going to "bleed" out our current stockpile of armaments.

Oh, and however designed the Mk 41 vertical launch system (VLS) was an idiot.

That's what I've been trying to tell you.

The Mk 1 VLS works great. You've been witnessing it's value & effectiveness in the Red Sea.

[PizzaSnake]

Iran and company aren't stupid. They are going to "bleed" out our current stockpile of armaments.

Oh, and however designed the Mk 41 vertical launch system (VLS) was an idiot.

That's what I've been trying to tell you.

The Mk 1 VLS works great. You've been witnessing it's value & effectiveness in the Red Sea.

Too hard to "reload" the canisters. Re-introduction if the crane is a step in the right direction, but as it is, need to return to port or a placid anchorage to allow for "reloading" is a real operational limitation and likely to be exploited by adversaries.

[old salt]

Iran and company aren't stupid. They are going to "bleed" out our current stockpile of armaments.

Oh, and however designed the Mk 41 vertical launch system (VLS) was an idiot.

That's what I've been trying to tell you.

The Mk 1 VLS works great. You've been witnessing it's value & effectiveness in the Red Sea.

Too hard to "reload" the canisters. Re-introduction if the crane is a step in the right direction, but as it is, need to return to port or a placid anchorage to allow for "reloading" is a real operational limitation and likely to be exploited by adversaries.

It's a lot more reliable (& flexible in what can be carried) than the mechanical reloading single & double rail launchers which preceded it.
They were also capacity limited by the size of the magazine which fed each launcher.

[PizzaSnake]

Iran and company aren't stupid. They are going to "bleed" out our current stockpile of armaments.

Oh, and however designed the Mk 41 vertical launch system (VLS) was an idiot.

That's what I've been trying to tell you.

The Mk 1 VLS works great. You've been witnessing it's value & effectiveness in the Red Sea.

Too hard to "reload" the canisters. Re-introduction if the crane is a step in the right direction, but as it is, need to return to port or a placid anchorage to allow for "reloading" is a real operational limitation and likely to be exploited by adversaries.

It's a lot more reliable (& flexible in what can be carried) than the mechanical reloading single & double rail launchers which preceded it.
They were also capacity limited by the size of the magazine which fed each launcher.

Here's the real question: are those vessels going out with a full complement?


Arleigh Burke-class destroyer - (90 or 96 cells)
Ticonderoga-class cruiser - (122 cells)
Zumwalt-class destroyer - (80 Mk 57 cells)
DDG(X) class destroyer - (At minimum up to 128 cells (4x32 module configuration), dependent on number of hypersonic missiles carried as per current US Navy design proposal)

But they keep riding this old dog.

At least they are as cheap as our allies. Their cell count, with the notable exceptions of Japan and South Korea, per vessel is anemic.

Australia
Adelaide-class frigate - (8 cells) (Retired)
Anzac-class frigate - (8 cells)
Hobart-class destroyer - (48 cells)
Hunter-class frigate - (32 cells)
Canada
Iroquois-class destroyer - (29 cells) (Retired)
Canadian Surface Combatant - (32 cells)
Chile
Adelaide-class frigate - (8 cells)
Denmark
Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate - (32 cells)
Finland
Pohjanmaa-class corvette - (8 or 16 cells)
Germany
Sachsen-class frigate - (32 cells)
Brandenburg-class frigate - (16 cells)
Japan
Maya-class destroyer - (96 cells)
Atago-class destroyer - (96 cells)
Kongō-class destroyer - (90 cells)
Hyūga-class helicopter destroyer - (16 cells)
Murasame-class destroyer - (16 cells)
Takanami-class destroyer - (32 cells)
Akizuki-class destroyer - (32 cells)
Asahi-class destroyer - (32 cells)
Mogami-class frigate - (16 cells)
Asuka - (8 cells)
Netherlands
De Zeven Provinciën-class frigate - (40 cells)
Norway
Fridtjof Nansen-class frigate - (8 or 16 cells)
South Korea
Chungmugong Yi Sun-shin-class destroyer (KDX-II) - (32 cells)
Sejong the Great-class destroyer (KDX-III) - (80 cells)
Spain
Álvaro de Bazán-class frigate - (48 cells)
Taiwan
Kaohsiung-class tank landing ship - (Test ship)[16]
Thailand
Naresuan-class frigate - (8 cells)
Bhumibol Adulyadej-class frigate - (8 cells)
Turkey
G-class frigate - (8 cells)
Barbaros-class frigate - (16 cells)
United Kingdom
Type 26 frigate - (24 cells)
Type 31 frigate - (32 cells)

[old salt]

Here's the real question: are those vessels going out with a full complement?

I don't know. ...& if I did, I'd have to kill myself.

[youthathletics]

Why Russia Doesn't Want War Between Israel and Iran

https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/20 ... -iran.html

[MDlaxfan76]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Pull your head out & get a grip.
Look where your 2+ years of happy talk & name calling have brought us.
You can't be defeated if you're not in the game....yet.
A stupid war. We led the Ukrainians to the slaughter.

Yes, defeatism has been consistently strong. On numerous topics.

With regard to Ukraine specifically, very defeatist, always the negative never the positive. Always woe is me, Ukraine with the aid of the West can’t possibly withstand and pushback Russia (and why would we even want to stop Russian expansion?). We need to spend massive amounts of money on our military of course, but why would we care about a white Christian authoritarian kleptocracy expanding toward our treaty allies? Those Euroburghers are a bunch of socialists not really our allies.

And those Ukrainians are really a bunch of corrupt Nazis secretly allied with Democrats against our Leader.

So, let’s go back on our promises to support Ukraine’s defense of its sovereignty and early stage democracy against a murderous much larger and heavily armed neighbor.

MAGA

Blah. Blah Blah. NeoCon Ideological claptrap. Look at the results on the ground. Realism is not defeatism.

We don't have the capacity to give Ukraine what they need. We haven't from the start.
The costly, ill conceived, Hail Mary counteroffensive failed.
You can't make a speech, dump billions of $$$ on it & then expect immediate results.
Magical thinking.You believed our propaganda.

Look at the air defense munitions expended in defending Israel for just one night.
We've given Ukraine just 1 US Patriot battery. Their F-16 pilots are still in AZ learning how to fly & fight their new (used) jets.

What's Biden's plan ? He's not telling us. You just spout political talking points with no basis in reality.

and you've been spouting isolationist defeatism and appeasement for years.
Reagan would be embarrassed by this MAGA woe is me BS.

I was quite realistic.
Surprised by the Ukrainian resilience and the initial Russian ineptitude, horrified by the Russian genocidal tactics, I agreed with supporting Ukraine in their fight, incrementally as they could absorb and train on unfamiliar weaponry. I thought it would take much longer to actually pushback Russia all the way, much as Biden and the Pentagon repeatedly warned, though there was a chance that the Russian forces might fold at some point, collapsing back. But don't count on it. But turns out killing any retreating soldiers was enough to keep them in their trenches while they prepared for the next wave and built tactical resilience themselves. Without air cover, Ukraine couldn't make progress. I was in favor of more air cover, more capabilities sooner, but recognized that it's more complicated if we weren't going to do it directly.

It's going to take longer.
But Russia must not prevail, their aggression must not succeed.

And on an American cash and blood basis, this effort is ridiculously cheap relative to strategic value. It's unfortunate that we live in a world of authoritarian ambitions, but that's the real reality.

But we get it, you and your MAGA ilk want to mirror their nationalist authoritarianism, especially that white christian form Putin espouses.

[MDlaxfan76]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Wrongo bucko, your confusing defeatism with realism. Ukraine is now involved in a war of attrition with an enemy that has damn near unlimited resources. You remember your kin folk fighting in gray as tenacious and dedicated as they were couldn't defeat my kin folk dressed in blue. You can call it defeatism but if you think Ukraine can win this war you are fooling yourself. That is just you being you. I give the Ukrainian military all the credit in the world. They are putting up a heroic effort. OS has tried to point out to you to no avail that Ukraine is running out of infantry. The majority of their front line infantry are on the wrong side of 40. I can say this from my own personal experience as a dog faced former airborne infantry soldier. This is a young mans business. I was 20 years old and the training we did kicked my freaking ass on a regular basis. There is a term for it that any army general is terrified of. It is called being combat ineffective. That is when casualties and time spent in never ending firefights takes its toll. All of the billions of dollars in anticipated new ordnance can't correct that problem. How well would you function MD if you went for a week with almost no sleep. I've been down that road and it wears you down in a manner you don't understand. It's not about being a tough guy. You familiar with what the 2000 yard stare is? Look it up.

The Ukrainian fight is existential. Truly existential.
And that matters in a way that I pray you and I and our children and their children's children never have to face here in America.

As I just replied to Salty:

It's going to take longer.
But Russia must not prevail, their aggression must not succeed.

And on an American cash and blood basis, this effort is ridiculously cheap relative to strategic value. It's unfortunate that we live in a world of authoritarian ambitions, but that's the real reality.

And if we could just reliably communicate cohesion with that attitude as a long term commitment that's unshakeable, the cost could be much less than if we continue to give hope to the Russian aggressors that the West as led by superpower USA is weak and fickle and short sighted and foolishly selfish...unfortunately, the latter is what we've been communicating and reinforcing with this MAGA isolationist defeatist chorus led by Putin's boot licker wannabe DJT and his MAGA acolyte performance artists.

That's not going to be put to bed convincingly unless Trump and the MAGA GOP is defeated thoroughly next November. Putin has a huge stake in that outcome.

[cradleandshoot]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Wrongo bucko, your confusing defeatism with realism. Ukraine is now involved in a war of attrition with an enemy that has damn near unlimited resources. You remember your kin folk fighting in gray as tenacious and dedicated as they were couldn't defeat my kin folk dressed in blue. You can call it defeatism but if you think Ukraine can win this war you are fooling yourself. That is just you being you. I give the Ukrainian military all the credit in the world. They are putting up a heroic effort. OS has tried to point out to you to no avail that Ukraine is running out of infantry. The majority of their front line infantry are on the wrong side of 40. I can say this from my own personal experience as a dog faced former airborne infantry soldier. This is a young mans business. I was 20 years old and the training we did kicked my freaking ass on a regular basis. There is a term for it that any army general is terrified of. It is called being combat ineffective. That is when casualties and time spent in never ending firefights takes its toll. All of the billions of dollars in anticipated new ordnance can't correct that problem. How well would you function MD if you went for a week with almost no sleep. I've been down that road and it wears you down in a manner you don't understand. It's not about being a tough guy. You familiar with what the 2000 yard stare is? Look it up.

The Ukrainian fight is existential. Truly existential.
And that matters in a way that I pray you and I and our children and their children's children never have to face here in America.

As I just replied to Salty:

It's going to take longer.
But Russia must not prevail, their aggression must not succeed.

And on an American cash and blood basis, this effort is ridiculously cheap relative to strategic value. It's unfortunate that we live in a world of authoritarian ambitions, but that's the real reality.

And if we could just reliably communicate cohesion with that attitude as a long term commitment that's unshakeable, the cost could be much less than if we continue to give hope to the Russian aggressors that the West as led by superpower USA is weak and fickle and short sighted and foolishly selfish...unfortunately, the latter is what we've been communicating and reinforcing with this MAGA isolationist defeatist chorus led by Putin's boot licker wannabe DJT and his MAGA acolyte performance artists.

That's not going to be put to bed convincingly unless Trump and the MAGA GOP is defeated thoroughly next November. Putin has a huge stake in that outcome.

Your taking a very deep intellectual dive into a very shallow pool. OS has not been blowing smoke up your nose. The problem goes much deeper than just supplying Ukraine more munitions. They are running out of infantry. The Russians have no problem finding more cannon fodder. There is a solution for Ukraine. I'm guessing it won't be that popular. At least part of an answer revolves hiring S o F. Many of thousands of experienced combat vets out there that will fight for money and the hell with patriotism. If you pay them they will fight. They might even be able to do a little bit of teaching in the process.

[OCanada]

Intetesting Russiais having a similar problem.

[OCanada]

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukrai ... 52214e5394

[old salt]

Intetesting Russiais having a similar problem.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukrai ... 52214e5394

That article is 18 mos old. Russia is now fully mobilized & on a wartime footing.

[old salt]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Pull your head out & get a grip.
Look where your 2+ years of happy talk & name calling have brought us.
You can't be defeated if you're not in the game....yet.
A stupid war. We led the Ukrainians to the slaughter.

Yes, defeatism has been consistently strong. On numerous topics.

With regard to Ukraine specifically, very defeatist, always the negative never the positive. Always woe is me, Ukraine with the aid of the West can’t possibly withstand and pushback Russia (and why would we even want to stop Russian expansion?). We need to spend massive amounts of money on our military of course, but why would we care about a white Christian authoritarian kleptocracy expanding toward our treaty allies? Those Euroburghers are a bunch of socialists not really our allies.

And those Ukrainians are really a bunch of corrupt Nazis secretly allied with Democrats against our Leader.

So, let’s go back on our promises to support Ukraine’s defense of its sovereignty and early stage democracy against a murderous much larger and heavily armed neighbor.

MAGA

Blah. Blah Blah. NeoCon Ideological claptrap. Look at the results on the ground. Realism is not defeatism.

We don't have the capacity to give Ukraine what they need. We haven't from the start.
The costly, ill conceived, Hail Mary counteroffensive failed.
You can't make a speech, dump billions of $$$ on it & then expect immediate results.
Magical thinking.You believed our propaganda.

Look at the air defense munitions expended in defending Israel for just one night.
We've given Ukraine just 1 US Patriot battery. Their F-16 pilots are still in AZ learning how to fly & fight their new (used) jets.

What's Biden's plan ? He's not telling us. You just spout political talking points with no basis in reality.

and you've been spouting isolationist defeatism and appeasement for years.
Reagan would be embarrassed by this MAGA woe is me BS.

I was quite realistic.
Surprised by the Ukrainian resilience and the initial Russian ineptitude, horrified by the Russian genocidal tactics, I agreed with supporting Ukraine in their fight, incrementally as they could absorb and train on unfamiliar weaponry. I thought it would take much longer to actually pushback Russia all the way, much as Biden and the Pentagon repeatedly warned, though there was a chance that the Russian forces might fold at some point, collapsing back. But don't count on it. But turns out killing any retreating soldiers was enough to keep them in their trenches while they prepared for the next wave and built tactical resilience themselves. Without air cover, Ukraine couldn't make progress. I was in favor of more air cover, more capabilities sooner, but recognized that it's more complicated if we weren't going to do it directly.

It's going to take longer.
But Russia must not prevail, their aggression must not succeed.

And on an American cash and blood basis, this effort is ridiculously cheap relative to strategic value. It's unfortunate that we live in a world of authoritarian ambitions, but that's the real reality.

But we get it, you and your MAGA ilk want to mirror their nationalist authoritarianism, especially that white christian form Putin espouses.

You offer nothing but condescending snark & non-specific political bromides.
Reagan was too smart to get us involved in a mess like this.

How long do you expect it to take & what's your plan to enable Ukraine to survive that long.
Like Biden, you offer no specifics, no coherent strategy. Just beg for more cubic $$$ & impugn the patriotism of anyone who questions the wisdom of the current non-strategy.

As J.D. Vance wrote, trying to justify extending this slaughter on an American cash & blood basis is not only grotesque, it's depleting our stock of weapons & munitions faster than we can replenish what's being expended in Ukriaine (not to mention Israel & the ME).It's year #3 of this war & our defense industrial base is still not fully mobilized & is falling further behind. Biden is trying to finance this war on a piecemeal basis without leveling with the public on the full long term cost & the impact on our own readiness.

[cradleandshoot]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Pull your head out & get a grip.
Look where your 2+ years of happy talk & name calling have brought us.
You can't be defeated if you're not in the game....yet.
A stupid war. We led the Ukrainians to the slaughter.

Yes, defeatism has been consistently strong. On numerous topics.

With regard to Ukraine specifically, very defeatist, always the negative never the positive. Always woe is me, Ukraine with the aid of the West can’t possibly withstand and pushback Russia (and why would we even want to stop Russian expansion?). We need to spend massive amounts of money on our military of course, but why would we care about a white Christian authoritarian kleptocracy expanding toward our treaty allies? Those Euroburghers are a bunch of socialists not really our allies.

And those Ukrainians are really a bunch of corrupt Nazis secretly allied with Democrats against our Leader.

So, let’s go back on our promises to support Ukraine’s defense of its sovereignty and early stage democracy against a murderous much larger and heavily armed neighbor.

MAGA

Blah. Blah Blah. NeoCon Ideological claptrap. Look at the results on the ground. Realism is not defeatism.

We don't have the capacity to give Ukraine what they need. We haven't from the start.
The costly, ill conceived, Hail Mary counteroffensive failed.
You can't make a speech, dump billions of $$$ on it & then expect immediate results.
Magical thinking.You believed our propaganda.

Look at the air defense munitions expended in defending Israel for just one night.
We've given Ukraine just 1 US Patriot battery. Their F-16 pilots are still in AZ learning how to fly & fight their new (used) jets.

What's Biden's plan ? He's not telling us. You just spout political talking points with no basis in reality.

and you've been spouting isolationist defeatism and appeasement for years.
Reagan would be embarrassed by this MAGA woe is me BS.

I was quite realistic.
Surprised by the Ukrainian resilience and the initial Russian ineptitude, horrified by the Russian genocidal tactics, I agreed with supporting Ukraine in their fight, incrementally as they could absorb and train on unfamiliar weaponry. I thought it would take much longer to actually pushback Russia all the way, much as Biden and the Pentagon repeatedly warned, though there was a chance that the Russian forces might fold at some point, collapsing back. But don't count on it. But turns out killing any retreating soldiers was enough to keep them in their trenches while they prepared for the next wave and built tactical resilience themselves. Without air cover, Ukraine couldn't make progress. I was in favor of more air cover, more capabilities sooner, but recognized that it's more complicated if we weren't going to do it directly.

It's going to take longer.
But Russia must not prevail, their aggression must not succeed.

And on an American cash and blood basis, this effort is ridiculously cheap relative to strategic value. It's unfortunate that we live in a world of authoritarian ambitions, but that's the real reality.

But we get it, you and your MAGA ilk want to mirror their nationalist authoritarianism, especially that white christian form Putin espouses.

You offer nothing but condescending snark & non-specific political bromides.
Reagan was too smart to get us involved in a mess like this.

How long do you expect it to take & what's your plan to enable Ukraine to survive that long.
Like Biden, you offer no specifics, no coherent strategy. Just beg for more cubic $$$ & impugn the patriotism of anyone who questions the wisdom of the current non-strategy.

As J.D. Vance wrote, trying to justify extending this slaughter on an American cash & blood basis is not only grotesque, it's depleting our stock of weapons & munitions faster than we can replenish what's being expended in Ukriaine (not to mention Israel & the ME).It's year #3 of this war & our defense industrial base is still not fully mobilized & is falling further behind. Biden is trying to finance this war on a piecemeal basis without leveling with the public on the full long term cost & the impact on our own readiness.

+1 A post so chock full of common sense that will leave the chicken hawks on this forum dazed and confused. They love the war in Ukraine but they hate the way Israel is fighting the war that was declared on them. They must get their marching orders from their comatose CiC.

[youthathletics]

Agreed, and then further fuss about the military complex, SA's, defense spending, making govt bigger, deficit spending, and anything that is NOT aligned w/their pov.

[MDlaxfan76]

Defeatism is rampant among MAGA adherents.

Pull your head out & get a grip.
Look where your 2+ years of happy talk & name calling have brought us.
You can't be defeated if you're not in the game....yet.
A stupid war. We led the Ukrainians to the slaughter.

Yes, defeatism has been consistently strong. On numerous topics.

With regard to Ukraine specifically, very defeatist, always the negative never the positive. Always woe is me, Ukraine with the aid of the West can’t possibly withstand and pushback Russia (and why would we even want to stop Russian expansion?). We need to spend massive amounts of money on our military of course, but why would we care about a white Christian authoritarian kleptocracy expanding toward our treaty allies? Those Euroburghers are a bunch of socialists not really our allies.

And those Ukrainians are really a bunch of corrupt Nazis secretly allied with Democrats against our Leader.

So, let’s go back on our promises to support Ukraine’s defense of its sovereignty and early stage democracy against a murderous much larger and heavily armed neighbor.

MAGA

Blah. Blah Blah. NeoCon Ideological claptrap. Look at the results on the ground. Realism is not defeatism.

We don't have the capacity to give Ukraine what they need. We haven't from the start.
The costly, ill conceived, Hail Mary counteroffensive failed.
You can't make a speech, dump billions of $$$ on it & then expect immediate results.
Magical thinking.You believed our propaganda.

Look at the air defense munitions expended in defending Israel for just one night.
We've given Ukraine just 1 US Patriot battery. Their F-16 pilots are still in AZ learning how to fly & fight their new (used) jets.

What's Biden's plan ? He's not telling us. You just spout political talking points with no basis in reality.

and you've been spouting isolationist defeatism and appeasement for years.
Reagan would be embarrassed by this MAGA woe is me BS.

I was quite realistic.
Surprised by the Ukrainian resilience and the initial Russian ineptitude, horrified by the Russian genocidal tactics, I agreed with supporting Ukraine in their fight, incrementally as they could absorb and train on unfamiliar weaponry. I thought it would take much longer to actually pushback Russia all the way, much as Biden and the Pentagon repeatedly warned, though there was a chance that the Russian forces might fold at some point, collapsing back. But don't count on it. But turns out killing any retreating soldiers was enough to keep them in their trenches while they prepared for the next wave and built tactical resilience themselves. Without air cover, Ukraine couldn't make progress. I was in favor of more air cover, more capabilities sooner, but recognized that it's more complicated if we weren't going to do it directly.

It's going to take longer.
But Russia must not prevail, their aggression must not succeed.

And on an American cash and blood basis, this effort is ridiculously cheap relative to strategic value. It's unfortunate that we live in a world of authoritarian ambitions, but that's the real reality.

But we get it, you and your MAGA ilk want to mirror their nationalist authoritarianism, especially that white christian form Putin espouses.

You offer nothing but condescending snark & non-specific political bromides.
Reagan was too smart to get us involved in a mess like this.

How long do you expect it to take & what's your plan to enable Ukraine to survive that long.
Like Biden, you offer no specifics, no coherent strategy. Just beg for more cubic $$$ & impugn the patriotism of anyone who questions the wisdom of the current non-strategy.

As J.D. Vance wrote, trying to justify extending this slaughter on an American cash & blood basis is not only grotesque, it's depleting our stock of weapons & munitions faster than we can replenish what's being expended in Ukriaine (not to mention Israel & the ME).It's year #3 of this war & our defense industrial base is still not fully mobilized & is falling further behind. Biden is trying to finance this war on a piecemeal basis without leveling with the public on the full long term cost & the impact on our own readiness.

I’ll respond to that bs with a request for clarification.

I recall you multiple times saying that you supported defensive weaponry for Ukraine such that they did not need to live in fear of ongoing death from the sky. Is that accurate or is that coupled only with capitulation to Russia?

Ceasefire agreement before any defensive weapons?

Is your “strategy” to starve Ukraine of weapons until they surrender?

I am fully comfortable with discussion of what Biden should do differently to more effectively support Ukraine and achieve a stronger global strategic position, but defeatism and alignment with Putin are off the table. Yes, Reagan would be appalled at you guys calling yourselves Republicans.

[PizzaSnake]

Agreed, and then further fuss about the military complex, SA's, defense spending, making govt bigger, deficit spending, and anything that is NOT aligned w/their pov.

Hmm. Sounds like just about everyone in the world.

[MDlaxfan76]

Agreed, and then further fuss about the military complex, SA's, defense spending, making govt bigger, deficit spending, and anything that is NOT aligned w/their pov.

There’s a wide range of views on here on multiple issues, not sure you and cradle are differentiating fairly “their POV”.

Only a few can claim full coherence, and frankly while I admire coherence and consistency, I think it can easily devolve to simplistic naïveté rather than recognizing complexities and interdependencies between various choices.

Likewise the counter responses can be too simplistic.

For instance, I see the Ukraine situation as first and foremost a moral question. Do we stand against brutal aggression violating all international law by an authoritarian kleptocracy seeking to subjugate and subsume a nascent democracy? If so, at what level of “cost”? If not, at what level of cost? And I also see it in the context of other authoritarian potential aggression against democracies and what that might mean to our currently strong position in the world, economically and otherwise.

Israel likewise is first and foremost a moral question of whether the people of Israel must live with brutal terrorism perpetually. And how best to reduce or eliminate that current awful reality. However, there is a complicating moral question as to what kind of reality must Gazans and Palestinians face due to the dominance and outright aggression of Israel under current leadership. And the complications of ME dynamics.

These are not equivalent questions, they are complicated.