All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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youthathletics wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:30 pm
a fan wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:14 pm
youthathletics wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:55 pm
jhu72 wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 7:21 pm ... word is US Intel picked this up days ago and warned the Russians. By this I mean a terrorist attack was in the works and it would be a soft target like a concert, gathering of average joes. Was not specific as to date, time and place.
….do you now believe in the Deep State? How’d they already now, unless they were in on it? 🤓
okay...now that gave me a chuckle.

Have nice weekend!
Department of the ‘Deep’ State spokesman lays it out there a couple weeks ago.

https://x.com/chuckcallesto/status/1771 ... a82I2GssRg
Meh. Bad communications to the White House spokesman. It happens.

I'm REALLY proud that our Deep State put in a call to Moscow to tell them this was coming. In the end, NO ONE wants this sh(t happening to civilians.
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Kismet
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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This should be interesting - Vlad says he has four perps in custody. Throws shade on US intelligence report and claims Ukraine is behind the attack.

In the meantime, ISIS-K taking credit posting videos online to allegedly prove it.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Dan Coats in today's NYTimes:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/11/opin ... a-aid.html

"Since Russia’s first invasion of Ukraine in 2014, a rare consensus has formed in Washington around this conviction: America must provide military support to Ukraine’s resistance. Three administrations and large majorities of both parties in Congress have consistently held that President Vladimir Putin’s aggression cannot be tolerated. When has such deep solidarity last occurred on any difficult subject?

Now members of Congress are arguing that we must turn away from spending more money to help Ukraine, choosing instead to focus on our own needs, pursuing our own interests. This is a false choice.

The choices facing America are always based on the same foundation: what best serves our nation. The choice is not America first or something else first. America is always first. The real question, in this complicated and uncertain world, is what course of action will most likely serve our core national interests — security and economic prosperity.

Those interests are inextricably linked to the strength of our global alliances and the international system of law and cooperation in which American democracy survives and prospers. And the strength of those networks, in turn, depends on our role as a trusted ally and friend, on our credibility and — frankly — on our virtue.

In the 80 years that the Soviet Union and then Russia has been our strategic competitor, the United States has spent an incalculable amount to defend ourselves. We have spent trillions of dollars on America’s nuclear defense alone, with primarily one other nuclear-armed state in mind.

Ukraine’s effort to defend itself against Mr. Putin’s advance has degraded Russia’s military more than anyone thought possible when the full invasion of Ukraine began just over two years ago. In blunt dollar terms, helping Ukraine in that defense is by far the least expensive way to weaken Russia’s military and discourage Russian aggression, thereby protecting ourselves and our allies.

The opposite is also true. If Mr. Putin succeeds, the high anxiety in Europe over his next steps will justifiably continue to grow — and expensive imperatives will follow. Anticipating the next possible phase of Mr. Putin’s campaign to reimpose the Russian hegemony of the Cold War era will force NATO to greatly increase its defense budget, plunging the world into an arms race like those leading up to the world wars. Those who do not see the link between European security and our own are not living in the real world.

This is a moment that is heavy with potential consequences for America’s role in the world, for our power to shape future events and for our ability to live securely within our own borders. It is by no means certain that the pending aid package for Ukraine passed by the Senate will even come to a vote in the House and if it does, what its prospects will be. What happens next will determine whether our potential adversaries will be encouraged in their aggressive designs or intimidated by our collective resolve to resist them. It will determine whether our friends and allies will be strengthened by our determination or frightened by the collapse of American will.

The potential consequences of failing to help Ukraine resist Russia’s raw territorial aggression are not limited to Europe. China is watching closely to see how firmly America supports, or not, its friends these days. Our allies are watching too, including Taiwan, Japan and South Korea. All three are nervous about China’s regional ambitions — and dependent on America as a security partner.

This is the context in which the Ukraine aid package that is now before the House must be assessed. This isn’t about the money. It is about American steadfastness, something that is now in question because of another partisan contest. Ukraine and the tens of millions of people living there have become pawns for political maneuvering in Washington.

And while these maneuvers are not new to me or to the American public these days, usually the stakes are not so high. Our failure to help Ukraine resist; our complicity in allowing naked territorial aggression succeed; our undermining of NATO security; our tacit encouragement for China to potentially follow Russia’s lead; and most of all, our abandonment of people of courage and hope, and who love America, would together be a colossal strategic blunder.

This is not the time for political games. It is time for America to do what we all know is right."
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Excellent article, well worth the read for our "AmericaFirst" contingent on FL.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Ukraine is saying it could be endgame if the US or NATO don't give them more Patriot Missile Batteries (not just reloads of interceptor missiles). They want 26 more missile batteries. No nation has spare batteries. Any provided would come from existing front line units with no replacements in the pipeline. This has nothing to do with the spending bill now in Congress. NATO is not prepared for an air war in Europe vs Russia.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/u ... ower-grid/

Raytheon saw the demand coming & began increasing production of interceptors to the max, on their own.

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2024/0 ... 0Laliberty.

This is a critical shortfall for NATO in Europe & US w/allies in West Pac.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2024 ... ys/394358/
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cradleandshoot
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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So the solution to the war in Ukraine is the USA being a never ending source of ordnance for the Ukrainian military. Got it, Democrats hate Putin and can't remember where the queen of evil hid the reset button.
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NattyBohChamps04
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:17 am So the solution to the war in Ukraine is the USA being a never ending source of ordnance for the Ukrainian military. Got it, Democrats hate Putin and can't remember where the queen of evil hid the reset button.
Is it the solution? Who knows.

Are we getting the best bang for our buck in the past 60 years vs. Russia/USSR by sending military aid to Ukraine? While stimulating our economy? While losing no American military lives? While defending a democracy? You bet your a$$. By a thousand country miles.

Not sure when half the country got so cowardly against one of our major adversaries. Who invaded a sovereign country. A country that wants to defend itself. It's kind of insane we're at this point with you Republicans.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:34 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:17 am So the solution to the war in Ukraine is the USA being a never ending source of ordnance for the Ukrainian military. Got it, Democrats hate Putin and can't remember where the queen of evil hid the reset button.
Is it the solution? Who knows.

Are we getting the best bang for our buck in the past 60 years vs. Russia/USSR by sending military aid to Ukraine? While stimulating our economy? While losing no American military lives? While defending a democracy? You bet your a$$. By a thousand country miles.

Not sure when half the country got so cowardly against one of our major adversaries. Who invaded a sovereign country. A country that wants to defend itself. It's kind of insane we're at this point with you Republicans.
Exactly right, on all points.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:34 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:17 am So the solution to the war in Ukraine is the USA being a never ending source of ordnance for the Ukrainian military. Got it, Democrats hate Putin and can't remember where the queen of evil hid the reset button.
Is it the solution? Who knows.

Are we getting the best bang for our buck in the past 60 years vs. Russia/USSR by sending military aid to Ukraine? While stimulating our economy? While losing no American military lives? While defending a democracy? You bet your a$$. By a thousand country miles.

Not sure when half the country got so cowardly against one of our major adversaries. Who invaded a sovereign country. A country that wants to defend itself. It's kind of insane we're at this point with you Republicans.
I'm not a Republican and I resent the insinuation. If I understand the conundrum correctly the Ukrainian army is burning through ordnance at an alarming rate. I get that they are at an extreme disadvantage matching Putin bullet for bullet and bomb for bomb. I don't think it is a good idea to burn through our ordnance inventory to supply Ukraine. This is the golden opportunity for all NATO members to chip in. The USA can't even build ships anymore without falling years behind delivery. I don't know if the USA has taken any measures to increase ordnance out put to match the needs of Israel, Ukraine and our own military. That might explain why our defense budget is 800 billion and climbing.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:50 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:34 am Is it the solution? Who knows.

Are we getting the best bang for our buck in the past 60 years vs. Russia/USSR by sending military aid to Ukraine? While stimulating our economy? While losing no American military lives? While defending a democracy? You bet your a$$. By a thousand country miles.

Not sure when half the country got so cowardly against one of our major adversaries. Who invaded a sovereign country. A country that wants to defend itself. It's kind of insane we're at this point with you Republicans.
I'm not a Republican and I resent the insinuation. If I understand the conundrum correctly the Ukrainian army is burning through ordnance at an alarming rate. I get that they are at an extreme disadvantage matching Putin bullet for bullet and bomb for bomb. I don't think it is a good idea to burn through our ordnance inventory to supply Ukraine. This is the golden opportunity for all NATO members to chip in. The USA can't even build ships anymore without falling years behind delivery. I don't know if the USA has taken any measures to increase ordnance out put to match the needs of Israel, Ukraine and our own military. That might explain why our defense budget is 800 billion and climbing.
For someone who likes to label people willy-nilly... you sure are quick to complain when it happens to you. I just call 'em like I see 'em, just like you. :lol:

NATO has been pitching in, and we've got the manufacturing potential to supply them and us and other allies if we wanted to.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Other NATO nations have greatly increased production capacity as have we.

Yes, we are hugely more capable than is Russia if we decide to prioritize.

Interestingly, we are learning that some of our more sophisticated weaponry is also more vulnerable to jamming and other countermeasures than less sophisticated. We are learning quite a lot as well as massively degrading Russia.

That said if Putin’s will is stronger than ours, it could be a catastrophic defeat for the West.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 2:46 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:50 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:34 am Is it the solution? Who knows.

Are we getting the best bang for our buck in the past 60 years vs. Russia/USSR by sending military aid to Ukraine? While stimulating our economy? While losing no American military lives? While defending a democracy? You bet your a$$. By a thousand country miles.

Not sure when half the country got so cowardly against one of our major adversaries. Who invaded a sovereign country. A country that wants to defend itself. It's kind of insane we're at this point with you Republicans.
I'm not a Republican and I resent the insinuation. If I understand the conundrum correctly the Ukrainian army is burning through ordnance at an alarming rate. I get that they are at an extreme disadvantage matching Putin bullet for bullet and bomb for bomb. I don't think it is a good idea to burn through our ordnance inventory to supply Ukraine. This is the golden opportunity for all NATO members to chip in. The USA can't even build ships anymore without falling years behind delivery. I don't know if the USA has taken any measures to increase ordnance out put to match the needs of Israel, Ukraine and our own military. That might explain why our defense budget is 800 billion and climbing.
For someone who likes to label people willy-nilly... you sure are quick to complain when it happens to you. I just call 'em like I see 'em, just like you. :lol:

NATO has been pitching in, and we've got the manufacturing potential to supply them and us and other allies if we wanted to.
You can throw any insult my way no problem with that by me. When you call me a Republican you have crossed any and all bounds of decency. I don't want to be associated with any Republican that might resemble MD lax in any way, 🤮
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:44 pm Other NATO nations have greatly increased production capacity as have we.

Yes, we are hugely more capable than is Russia if we decide to prioritize.

Interestingly, we are learning that some of our more sophisticated weaponry is also more vulnerable to jamming and other countermeasures than less sophisticated. We are learning quite a lot as well as massively degrading Russia.

That said if Putin’s will is stronger than ours, it could be a catastrophic defeat for the West.
Good thing you can't jam a 155 round. They are a true fire and forget weapon. I don't know if our military is using copperhead munitions anymore. I'm sure the Ukrainian military could put them to good use. All you need is a FO team and a laser designator.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:49 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:34 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:17 am So the solution to the war in Ukraine is the USA being a never ending source of ordnance for the Ukrainian military. Got it, Democrats hate Putin and can't remember where the queen of evil hid the reset button.
Is it the solution? Who knows.

Are we getting the best bang for our buck in the past 60 years vs. Russia/USSR by sending military aid to Ukraine? While stimulating our economy? While losing no American military lives? While defending a democracy? You bet your a$$. By a thousand country miles.

Not sure when half the country got so cowardly against one of our major adversaries. Who invaded a sovereign country. A country that wants to defend itself. It's kind of insane we're at this point with you Republicans.
Exactly right, on all points.
It should be obvious by now that the strategy of Russia in Ukraine & Iran in the ME is to force the US & allies to expend our inventory of expensive SAMs to shoot down their less expensive drones, cruise missiles & tactical ballistic missiles. We don't have the production capacity to keep up with them. We're ramping up production of interceptor missiles but not the launchers, radars & command units necessary to form additional Patriot batteries. The same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. We're also ramping up production there, but no guarantee it will happen fast enough to save Ukraine. Our pledge of open ended support for Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out, ...at least by the politicians who made that promise.

Ukraine is also running out of military age men. They were behind in that area before the war even started.
There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

old salt wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:47 pmIt should be obvious by now that the strategy of Russia in Ukraine & Iran in the ME is to force the US & allies to expend our inventory of expensive SAMs to shoot down their less expensive drones, cruise missiles & tactical ballistic missiles. We don't have the production capacity to keep up with them. We're ramping up production of interceptor missiles but not the launchers, radars & command units necessary to form additional Patriot batteries. The same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. We're also ramping up production there, but no guarantee it will happen fast enough to save Ukraine. Our pledge of open ended support for Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out, ...at least by the politicians who made that promise.

Ukraine is also running out of military age men. They were behind in that area before the war even started.
There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.
> There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.

Agreed. That way is to help Ukraine kill many more Russian invaders than Russia can kill Ukranian defenders.

Funny thing about SAMs... Russia is using them to shoot down (and also miss) the super inexpensive Ukrainian drones. And Ukraine is manufacturing and getting tons more drones. Russia doesn't have the SAM production capacity to keep up. Same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. Russia is having lots of duds and issues from foreign made shells too.

Russia's pledge of open ended support of invading Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out by Putin. Three days has turned into a slog. They had not planned on 2+ years. They're improvising on a day to day basis.

We have an amazing opportunity to help Ukraine. WITHOUT any US military personnell fighting against Russia.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:52 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:47 pmIt should be obvious by now that the strategy of Russia in Ukraine & Iran in the ME is to force the US & allies to expend our inventory of expensive SAMs to shoot down their less expensive drones, cruise missiles & tactical ballistic missiles. We don't have the production capacity to keep up with them. We're ramping up production of interceptor missiles but not the launchers, radars & command units necessary to form additional Patriot batteries. The same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. We're also ramping up production there, but no guarantee it will happen fast enough to save Ukraine. Our pledge of open ended support for Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out, ...at least by the politicians who made that promise.

Ukraine is also running out of military age men. They were behind in that area before the war even started.
There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.
> There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.

Agreed. That way is to help Ukraine kill many more Russian invaders than Russia can kill Ukranian defenders.

Funny thing about SAMs... Russia is using them to shoot down (and also miss) the super inexpensive Ukrainian drones. And Ukraine is manufacturing and getting tons more drones. Russia doesn't have the SAM production capacity to keep up. Same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. Russia is having lots of duds and issues from foreign made shells too.

Russia's pledge of open ended support of invading Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out by Putin. Three days has turned into a slog. They had not planned on 2+ years. They're improvising on a day to day basis.

We have an amazing opportunity to help Ukraine. WITHOUT any US military personnell fighting against Russia.
Amazing opportunity indeed. It's a great deal for the US. We'll fight a proxy war against Russia until the last Ukrainian soldier is dead. Then the Ukrainians will blame us for not giving them everything they asked for to prevent a Russian victory.

Then we'll realize we don't have enough SAM's left for Israel & Taiwan to defend themselves & the Houthi's will have shut down Suez & the Red Sea.

https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives ... zation.php

Ukraine’s Manpower Shortage

When Russia invaded in February 2022, the Ukrainian military received more volunteers than it could handle. But as the conflict dragged on, Kyiv largely exhausted its pool of volunteers. Ukraine is now struggling to mobilize enough troops. Recruitment officers have resorted to issuing summonses on the street and chasing down draft dodgers.

Many Ukrainian units are severely understrength. This is particularly true for infantry units, forcing Ukraine to reassign personnel from other specialties. The manpower shortfall means that while soldiers may receive brief vacations, Kyiv cannot conduct long-term force rotation or demobilization. Many troops have been fighting for over two years, resulting in exhaustion and sinking morale. Some soldiers report having to man frontline positions for over a week at a time with no break. “No matter how much help we get, how many weapons we have — we lack people,” Ukraine’s Ground Forces commander said on Monday.

The Russian military also experienced a serious manpower shortage during the war’s first year. But Russia is now in a more comfortable position, thanks in part to its larger population. After Ukrainian forces tore through sparsely manned Russian lines in Kharkiv Oblast in September 2022, Moscow began mobilizing later that month. This belated decision allowed Russia to stabilize its lines. While the Kremlin has since refrained from further forced mobilization, Moscow has proven surprisingly successful in recruiting volunteers. This has enabled Russia to replace losses, generate some additional combat power, and expend an enormous number of soldiers in “meat” assaults. Like Ukraine, however, Russia currently lacks enough troops to rotate forces.

Last December, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the Ukrainian military had proposed mobilizing 450,000 to 500,000 more men. This request reportedly was an issue of contention between Zelenskyy and his top general, Valerii Zaluzhnyi, prior to the latter’s ouster in February. In late March, Zaluzhnyi’s successor, Colonel-General Oleksandr Syrskyi, claimed the mobilization quota “was significantly reduced” thanks to an audit that had resulted in “thousands” of non-combat personnel being transferred to combat roles. Still, there is no escaping the fact that Ukraine needs to mobilize many thousands of additional troops.

In addition to the number of soldiers, an important issue is age. Ukraine has relied largely on older men to replenish its ranks. The average age of Ukrainian troops at the front is over 40 years old. (Russian volunteer and mobilized troops are often on the older side, too.) Kyiv has been reluctant to mobilize young men because the country already has relatively few of them. Losing more could jeopardize its economy and future. But older soldiers tend to be less physically suited to the rigors of battle. This is especially problematic for offensive operations, in which dismounted infantry often must travel multiple kilometers on foot.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:04 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:52 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:47 pmIt should be obvious by now that the strategy of Russia in Ukraine & Iran in the ME is to force the US & allies to expend our inventory of expensive SAMs to shoot down their less expensive drones, cruise missiles & tactical ballistic missiles. We don't have the production capacity to keep up with them. We're ramping up production of interceptor missiles but not the launchers, radars & command units necessary to form additional Patriot batteries. The same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. We're also ramping up production there, but no guarantee it will happen fast enough to save Ukraine. Our pledge of open ended support for Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out, ...at least by the politicians who made that promise.

Ukraine is also running out of military age men. They were behind in that area before the war even started.
There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.
> There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.

Agreed. That way is to help Ukraine kill many more Russian invaders than Russia can kill Ukranian defenders.

Funny thing about SAMs... Russia is using them to shoot down (and also miss) the super inexpensive Ukrainian drones. And Ukraine is manufacturing and getting tons more drones. Russia doesn't have the SAM production capacity to keep up. Same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. Russia is having lots of duds and issues from foreign made shells too.

Russia's pledge of open ended support of invading Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out by Putin. Three days has turned into a slog. They had not planned on 2+ years. They're improvising on a day to day basis.

We have an amazing opportunity to help Ukraine. WITHOUT any US military personnell fighting against Russia.
Amazing opportunity indeed. It's a great deal for the US. We'll fight a proxy war against Russia until the last Ukrainian soldier is dead. Then the Ukrainians will blame us for not giving them everything they asked for to prevent a Russian victory.

Then we'll realize we don't have enough SAM's left for Israel & Taiwan to defend themselves & the Houthi's will have shut down Suez & the Red Sea.
LOL

If the last Ukrainian soldier is dead. Like, all 2M+ of them. With the full support of the US and NATO? With 10M+ Russians dead. After like 5-10 years of fighting?

Are they honestly gonna blame us at that point? Is the country gonna be around to blame us at that point?

You're not really thinking about this whole thing in a logical manner regarding our economy and love of our military industrial complex.

If we went that far, Israel and Taiwan would be armed to the teeth without us lifting a pinky. Israel has already swatted dozens of its neighbors in multiple wars with a fraction of our current military support.

You're past your prime. It's ok though, you fought against Russia when it mattered. You can take this shift off.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:47 am
old salt wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:04 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 10:52 pm
old salt wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:47 pmIt should be obvious by now that the strategy of Russia in Ukraine & Iran in the ME is to force the US & allies to expend our inventory of expensive SAMs to shoot down their less expensive drones, cruise missiles & tactical ballistic missiles. We don't have the production capacity to keep up with them. We're ramping up production of interceptor missiles but not the launchers, radars & command units necessary to form additional Patriot batteries. The same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. We're also ramping up production there, but no guarantee it will happen fast enough to save Ukraine. Our pledge of open ended support for Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out, ...at least by the politicians who made that promise.

Ukraine is also running out of military age men. They were behind in that area before the war even started.
There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.
> There's only one way the US can fix that shortfall.

Agreed. That way is to help Ukraine kill many more Russian invaders than Russia can kill Ukranian defenders.

Funny thing about SAMs... Russia is using them to shoot down (and also miss) the super inexpensive Ukrainian drones. And Ukraine is manufacturing and getting tons more drones. Russia doesn't have the SAM production capacity to keep up. Same thing is happening with the supply of artillery shells. Russia is having lots of duds and issues from foreign made shells too.

Russia's pledge of open ended support of invading Ukraine, for as long as it takes, was not well thought out by Putin. Three days has turned into a slog. They had not planned on 2+ years. They're improvising on a day to day basis.

We have an amazing opportunity to help Ukraine. WITHOUT any US military personnell fighting against Russia.
Amazing opportunity indeed. It's a great deal for the US. We'll fight a proxy war against Russia until the last Ukrainian soldier is dead. Then the Ukrainians will blame us for not giving them everything they asked for to prevent a Russian victory.

Then we'll realize we don't have enough SAM's left for Israel & Taiwan to defend themselves & the Houthi's will have shut down Suez & the Red Sea.
LOL

If the last Ukrainian soldier is dead. Like, all 2M+ of them. With the full support of the US and NATO? With 10M+ Russians dead. After like 5-10 years of fighting?

Are they honestly gonna blame us at that point? Is the country gonna be around to blame us at that point?

You're not really thinking about this whole thing in a logical manner regarding our economy and love of our military industrial complex.

If we went that far, Israel and Taiwan would be armed to the teeth without us lifting a pinky. Israel has already swatted dozens of its neighbors in multiple wars with a fraction of our current military support.

You're past your prime. It's ok though, you fought against Russia when it mattered. You can take this shift off.
The Ukrainians are already blaming us. Do you really think this is the "full support" of the US & NATO ? Moral support -- maybe.

Where are Israel & Taiwan going to get what they need to be "armed to the teeth" if not from the US ?

Taiwan has already paid for critical weapons systems that are well behind the originally contracted delivery date.
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... ttlenecks/
They especially need the Patriots & other air defense munitions that are being expended in Ukraine & the ME

We've had to come to Israel's aid, providing weapons, in every major war they've waged.

You live in a fantasy world of happy talk, spin & propaganda, ...which has grown remarkably quiet of late.

No worries. Biden's behind Ukraine, ...whatever it takes.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/b ... term=first

Biden Turns on Ukraine, Too

by NOAH ROTHMAN, April 10, 2024

This week, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin all but confirmed a blockbuster report in the Financial Times from late March indicating that the Biden administration was prepared to sacrifice Ukraine’s battlefield objectives if they imperiled his own reelection prospects.

In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, Austin scolded Ukraine for executing long-range attacks on Russian oil refineries. “Ukraine is better served in going after tactical and operational targets that can directly influence the current fight,” the Pentagon chief said. But Austin gave away the game when he fretted that Ukrainian drone attacks on Russian infrastructure “could have a knock-on effect in terms of the global energy situation.”

Austin refers to the global price of oil and gasoline, which have experienced upward pressure in recent weeks owing, in small part, to a decline in Russia’s seaborne crude-oil exports. His remarks dovetail with the FT’s allegation that the Biden White House fears Ukraine’s attacks on Russian energy could boost the price of energy to unacceptable levels or even tempt Russia to “retaliate by lashing out at energy infrastructure relied on by the West.”

Biden’s turn against his partners in Ukraine, much like his (predictable) pivot against Israel, is a stab in the back. Ukraine’s effort to wage asymmetric warfare against a better-armed, well-funded adversary is a tactical shift necessitated by relatively stagnant battlefield conditions. Insofar as those attacks have the capacity to limit Russia’s capacity to fund and equip its armed forces inside Ukraine and destabilize Russian society, Kyiv’s tactics are perfectly legitimate. Moreover, the Russian assets Biden apparently seeks to protect are assets his administration has sanctioned, and the pain at the pump Biden hopes to avert is pain he implored Americans to expect and endure.

“I will not pretend this will be painless,” Biden confessed on the eve of Russia’s second invasion of Ukraine. “There could be impact on our energy prices, so we are taking active steps to alleviate the pressure on our own energy markets and offset rising prices.” Nevertheless, even as Russia’s surprise attack rattled global financial markets and sent commodity prices spiking, Biden urged Americans to bear the burden. “Defending freedom will have costs for us as well, here at home,” the president admitted. “We need to be honest about that.”

Well, you may be stoically shouldering that responsibility, but Biden is tapping out. When his own reelection prospects were in the balance, all that happy talk about defending freedom and democracy from land-hungry tyrants was exposed as hollow. And yet, Biden’s understanding of the politics of Ukraine’s war is remarkably shallow. Is the president’s political position threatened more by a modest increase in the price of energy or by the abandonment of a cause to which he pledged vast sums of taxpayer capital and an irreplaceable commitment of American national prestige? What would improve his chances at reelection more? A two-cents-per-gallon decrease in the price of gasoline or a revanchist Russia reeling amid the judicious application of American might in defense of its principles?

Joe Biden sold Americans on a noble cause. He implored them to support Ukraine’s war of defense against Russia’s war of conquest and subjugation, and they eagerly obliged. Now, in shackling Ukraine to tactics that foreclose on battlefield outcomes America supposedly wants, Biden risks abandoning the American people at the rally point to which he summoned them. Ukrainians surely resent Biden’s pivot, but they can’t be alone.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

I agree with the facts & the math, but not necessarily with brokering for peace, ...yet.

I do agree with adopting a defensive strategy, pushing for a cease fire & opening peace talks, without preconditions.

IMO -- we should continue defensive military aid to Ukraine, limited to US made matl, drawn from our own inventory, then backfilled, in the form of a long term Lend-Lease loan.

FTR -- I've been saying this since long before J.D. Vance published this :
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/opin ... raine.html

OPINION GUEST ESSAY

The Math on Ukraine Doesn’t Add Up

by J.D. Vance, April 12, 2024

Mr. Vance, a Republican, is the junior senator from Ohio.

President Biden wants the world to believe that the biggest obstacle facing Ukraine is Republicans and our lack of commitment to the global community. This is wrong.

Ukraine’s challenge is not the G.O.P.; it’s math. Ukraine needs more soldiers than it can field, even with draconian conscription policies. And it needs more matériel than the United States can provide. This reality must inform any future Ukraine policy, from further congressional aid to the diplomatic course set by the president.

The Biden administration has applied increasing pressure on Republicans to pass a supplemental aid package of more than $60 billion to Ukraine. I voted against this package in the Senate and remain opposed to virtually any proposal for the United States to continue funding this war. Mr. Biden has failed to articulate even basic facts about what Ukraine needs and how this aid will change the reality on the ground.

The most fundamental question: How much does Ukraine need and how much can we actually provide? Mr. Biden suggests that a $60 billion supplemental means the difference between victory and defeat in a major war between Russia and Ukraine. That is also wrong. This $60 billion is a fraction of what it would take to turn the tide in Ukraine’s favor. But this is not just a matter of dollars. Fundamentally, we lack the capacity to manufacture the amount of weapons Ukraine needs us to supply to win the war.

Consider our ability to produce 155-millimeter artillery shells. Last year, Ukraine’s defense minister estimated that the country’s base-line requirement for these shells was over four million per year but that it could fire up to seven million if that many were available. Since the start of the conflict, the United States has gone to great lengths to ramp up production of 155-millimeter shells. We’ve roughly doubled our capacity and can now produce 360,000 per year — less than a tenth of what Ukraine says it needs. The administration’s goal is to get this to 1.2 million — 30 percent of what’s needed — by the end of 2025. This would cost the American taxpayers dearly while yielding an unpleasantly familiar result: failure abroad.

Just this week, the top American military commander in Europe argued that absent further security assistance, Russia could soon have a 10-to-1 artillery advantage over Ukraine. What didn’t gather as many headlines is that Russia’s current advantage is at least 5 to 1, even after all the money we have poured into the conflict. Neither of these ratios plausibly leads to Ukrainian victory.

Proponents of American aid to Ukraine have argued that our approach has been a boon to our own economy, creating jobs here in the factories that manufacture weapons. But our national security interests can be — and often are — separate from our economic interests. The notion that we should prolong a bloody and gruesome war because it’s been good for American business is grotesque. We can and should rebuild our industrial base without shipping its products to a foreign conflict.

The story is the same when we look at other munitions. Take the Patriot missile system — our premier air defense weapon. It’s of such importance in this war that Ukraine’s foreign minister has specifically demanded them. That’s because in March alone, Russia reportedly launched over 3,000 guided aerial bombs, 600 drones and 400 missiles at Ukraine. To fend off these attacks, the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and others have indicated they need thousands of Patriot interceptors per year. The problem is this: The United States only manufactures 550 per year. If we pass the supplemental aid package currently being considered in Congress, we could potentially increase annual production to 650, but that’s still less than a third of what Ukraine requires.

These weapons are not only needed by Ukraine. If China were to set its sights on Taiwan, the Patriot missile system would be critical to its defense. In fact, the United States has promised to send Taiwan nearly $900 million worth of Patriot missiles, but delivery of those weapons and other essential resources has been severely delayed, partly because of shortages caused by the war in Ukraine.

If that sounds bad, Ukraine’s manpower situation is even worse. Here are the basics: Russia has nearly four times the population of Ukraine. Ukraine needs upward of half a million new recruits, but hundreds of thousands of fighting-age men have already fled the country. The average Ukrainian soldier is roughly 43 years old, and many soldiers have already served two years at the front with few, if any, opportunities to stop fighting. After two years of conflict, there are some villages with almost no men left. The Ukrainian military has resorted to coercing men into service, and women have staged protests to demand the return of their husbands and fathers after long years of service at the front. This newspaper reported one instance in which the Ukrainian military attempted to conscript a man with a diagnosed mental disability.

Many in Washington seem to think that hundreds of thousands of young Ukrainians have gone to war with a song in their heart and are happy to label any thought to the contrary Russian propaganda. But major newspapers on both sides of the Atlantic are reporting that the situation on the ground in Ukraine is grim.

These basic mathematical realities were true, but contestable, at the outset of the war. They were obvious and incontestable a year ago, when American leadership worked closely with Mr. Zelensky to undertake a disastrous counteroffensive. The bad news is that accepting brute reality would have been most useful last spring, before the Ukrainians launched that extremely costly and unsuccessful military campaign. The good news is that even now, a defensive strategy can work. Digging in with old-fashioned ditches, cement and land mines are what enabled Russia to weather Ukraine’s 2023 counteroffensive. Our allies in Europe could better support such a strategy, as well. While some European countries have provided considerable resources, the burden of military support has thus far fallen heaviest on the United States.

By committing to a defensive strategy, Ukraine can preserve its precious military manpower, stop the bleeding and provide time for negotiations to commence. But this would require both the American and Ukrainian leadership to accept that Mr. Zelensky’s stated goal for the war — a return to 1991 boundaries — is fantastical.

The White House has said time and again that it can’t negotiate with President Vladimir Putin of Russia. This is absurd. The Biden administration has no viable plan for the Ukrainians to win this war. The sooner Americans confront this truth, the sooner we can fix this mess and broker for peace.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

You cannot "broker for peace" from a position of absolute weakness, where your biggest ally publicly withdraws support and one of its major political parties caves to the invaders. Vance is advocating that Ukraine cede massive territory and agree to an existence as a defenestrated vassal. Just stupid.
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