LaxPower Back-Up Stick

Nearly half way through the regular season and it seems like the majority of the discourse online (instagram, twitter, etc) seems to be on the increasing physicality of the game. Starting with the unfortunate injury to the Yale player (good to see that she is out of the hospital) and following with multiple posts/tweets about fouls from this past weekend, it seems like the game is a crossroads. I would be interested in hearing what others think about where the game is going and how to improve the product on the field?

PhanLax99 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:30 am Nearly half way through the regular season and it seems like the majority of the discourse online (instagram, twitter, etc) seems to be on the increasing physicality of the game. Starting with the unfortunate injury to the Yale player (good to see that she is out of the hospital) and following with multiple posts/tweets about fouls from this past weekend, it seems like the game is a crossroads. I would be interested in hearing what others think about where the game is going and how to improve the product on the field?

Others will do a better job responding to this than I will. But punishing the horizontal stick/crosscheck would help "the product on the field." I think after three yellow cards, you play with 10 field players, and short-handed inside the restraining line, whether you playing O or D. There have to be consequences that matter.

I am pessimistic.

It’s a three headed problem: players, coaches, and officials. In some situations, one is more to blame than the other two; in others, the mix is different.

Look no further than the summer AU league. Look at their safety rules. What, you say, they have no safety rules? Bingo. That league is run by the players. They make the rules. They want, or at least are willing to tolerate, a physical game.

I fear the AU game is the way things are headed. Indeed, each year we see some number of games suggesting we may already be there.

The horizontal stick check foul is one of the easiest calls in this otherwise very difficult to officiate game. So call it.

Card every stick check to the back of a ball carrier. Every one. It’s always dangerous.

There should be more extreme penalties for multiple yellow cards. I’ve suggested using the high school rule. Try it. See if it works. If it doesn’t, make a different change. Certainly not fully analogous, but they did something similar with three seconds over the past several years.

Others have suggested other rule changes with more teeth to address the problem of multiple yellow cards. But something needs to be done. It’s a problem. Fix it.

Good topic—fertile ground here.

As one who likes a physical game, I think we should be careful not to conflate physical with dirty. Excessive stick work is the latter and should be called consistently.

I believe diving should be a cardable offense. If a player can put someone in jeopardy of being ejected by diving, she should be subject to the same risk.

Another dangerous play I have seen a few times this year is undercutting a jumping player on the draw. Not sure if this is addressed in the rules, but any type of low hip check that threatens players knees or could result in an awkward fall should be called strictly.

Is it just me or do the rules seem to change near the sidelines? I would love it if we stopped bailing out players who run out of bounds—it’s a turnover.

Finally (for now)... As the game and athletes get faster, I’m curious if there been any consideration for adding a fourth field official? While it just crossed my mind, I’m surely late to the party. Generally, I don’t think we need more whistles but I could see benefit of getting more calls right. Extra eyes and legs in transition, improved lines of sight for shooting space, shot back-up and goal circle violations.

Disclaimer—the women’s game is better than ever and the refs do a great job! They have adapted well to a rapidly accelerating game. When I do have the benefit of replay, it proves them right more often than wrong.

GratefulRed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:48 am
Is it just me or do the rules seem to change near the sidelines? I would love it if we stopped bailing out players who run out of bounds—it’s a turnover.

However, I do get frustrated when the ball carrier is clearly pushed out of bounds (often by a horizontal stick) and the ball is awarded to the offending team.

There's a lot going on here and IMO it will all come back to the sticks. Am not disregarding fields, cleats, bigger, stronger, faster athletes, but ultimately it will come down to the sticks (both m & w laxers). In the days before electricity, running water, and when to and from school was uphill both ways and walked, women's sticks were not all that much different than tennis rackets (yes, I have picked them up, however briefly, and tossed the ball around a bit). Playing defense against a person using that kind of stick is a whole different thing than playing against a person using a stick that has evolved into today's wlax sticks (mlaxers too). Stick technology (gone too far IMO) has created an imbalance on the field, the O has been given a big advantage, hence the D has had to adjust. Have said many times I believe today's wlaxer's sticks are the equivalent of the 80s mlaxer sticks (never should have been allowed to make them any "better" beyond that point IMO). In the days of yore you didn't have to play D the way you do today, position alone was enough to stop/slow your opponent down. Cross checking was strictly verboten in the mlax game, if you led with a horizontal stick you were going to the penalty box, period. Didn't watch enough wlax back then to know how things were called but I'd bet there was no D played leading with a horizontal stick and shoving the O player. Unintended consequences, or careful what you wish for, from the "new" sticks. What to do now with the advantage they've given the O ????
I'm in agreement with GratefulRed, I have very much liked the play I've seen in every one of the pro wlax leagues and I like the more physical game I see from the collegiates too. This is not to say I don't see the problem, I do. Am in agreement with GR in that I think this is the way the girls want to play too. I believe this style of wlax is attracting more and more girls to the game, girls who would not have played the very restricted game of the past (perfectly understandable to me) too.
What to do, what to do?

Geez, this argument again? What's next, helmets, full pads? It is still one of, if not the safest game played. The officials er on the side of caution and safety and for the most part, they do a good job. It is a fast, physical sport. Don't do what football did and water down the physicality of the game. It's like two hand touch anymore.
Bringing pads and helmets into the game will only make the sport more physical. Issuing yellows more means the officials will have more say in the final outcome and we don't need that. The game is beautiful just as it is.

Pretty sure I clearly stated that I very much like the way the game is played today.
What argument? Just stating the facts, there is an imbalance on the field and you
can attribute that to the sticks for the most part but not restricted to. Name me a
rule change that has benefitted the D more than O. Stick in the halo no longer stops
a fast break...advantage O. Play on, no stopping and repositioning....advantage O.
3v3 on the draw...advantage O (more green and fewer people to get by when you
come up with the ball). These are just the facts and part of the reason you're seeing
a rougher game....D's gotta do something.

GratefulRed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:48 am Good topic—fertile ground here.

As one who likes a physical game, I think we should be careful not to conflate physical with dirty. Excessive stick work is the latter and should be called consistently.

I believe diving should be a cardable offense. If a player can put someone in jeopardy of being ejected by diving, she should be subject to the same risk.

Another dangerous play I have seen a few times this year is undercutting a jumping player on the draw. Not sure if this is addressed in the rules, but any type of low hip check that threatens players knees or could result in an awkward fall should be called strictly.

Is it just me or do the rules seem to change near the sidelines? I would love it if we stopped bailing out players who run out of bounds—it’s a turnover.

Finally (for now)... As the game and athletes get faster, I’m curious if there been any consideration for adding a fourth field official? While it just crossed my mind, I’m surely late to the party. Generally, I don’t think we need more whistles but I could see benefit of getting more calls right. Extra eyes and legs in transition, improved lines of sight for shooting space, shot back-up and goal circle violations.

Disclaimer—the women’s game is better than ever and the refs do a great job! They have adapted well to a rapidly accelerating game. When I do have the benefit of replay, it proves them right more often than wrong.

I appreciate the disclaimer at the close of this post, GR. Agreed; the game is really better than ever, and the speed, power and elegance of the women's game -- forgive me here -- absolutely wallops the slowed-down, overcoached, hyper-specialized men's game. I still love men's lacrosse, but the women's game is simply a better entertainment product right now. And compared to softball....

On the issue of an additional official, I will risk offending some folks by noting this: the officials are getting older. Not enough women are leaving college and getting into officiating (we know, at least in part, why), and the officiating crews are increasingly unable to literally keep up with the game. We have officials making a stick or body-related call...from 30 meters away. We could help them with an additional official.

DMac wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:09 pm Name me a
rule change that has benefitted the D more than O.

Defenders being able to run through the goal circle.

Good one, thanks. Wouldn't have thought of that one, should've always been able to anyway.

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:21 pm

GratefulRed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:48 am Good topic—fertile ground here.

As one who likes a physical game, I think we should be careful not to conflate physical with dirty. Excessive stick work is the latter and should be called consistently.

I believe diving should be a cardable offense. If a player can put someone in jeopardy of being ejected by diving, she should be subject to the same risk.

Another dangerous play I have seen a few times this year is undercutting a jumping player on the draw. Not sure if this is addressed in the rules, but any type of low hip check that threatens players knees or could result in an awkward fall should be called strictly.

Is it just me or do the rules seem to change near the sidelines? I would love it if we stopped bailing out players who run out of bounds—it’s a turnover.

Finally (for now)... As the game and athletes get faster, I’m curious if there been any consideration for adding a fourth field official? While it just crossed my mind, I’m surely late to the party. Generally, I don’t think we need more whistles but I could see benefit of getting more calls right. Extra eyes and legs in transition, improved lines of sight for shooting space, shot back-up and goal circle violations.

Disclaimer—the women’s game is better than ever and the refs do a great job! They have adapted well to a rapidly accelerating game. When I do have the benefit of replay, it proves them right more often than wrong.

I appreciate the disclaimer at the close of this post, GR. Agreed; the game is really better than ever, and the speed, power and elegance of the women's game -- forgive me here -- absolutely wallops the slowed-down, overcoached, hyper-specialized men's game. I still love men's lacrosse, but the women's game is simply a better entertainment product right now. And compared to softball....

On the issue of an additional official, I will risk offending some folks by noting this: the officials are getting older. Not enough women are leaving college and getting into officiating (we know, at least in part, why), and the officiating crews are increasingly unable to literally keep up with the game. We have officials making a stick or body-related call...from 30 meters away. We could help them with an additional official.

Seacoaster—i couldn’t agree more on what you’ve said, particularly about the appeal of the women’s game versus the men’s game. Like you, i also think we need younger and better officials, not more of them…
Having been to 80 plus womens d1 games over the past 5 years, the cultivating new officials should be a big focus for the NCAA.
My pet peeve from a rules perspective is the leeway granted to non-mandatory card fouls in the middle of the field. Typically officials will give a card only after three consecutive minor fouls by the same player in the same sequence. I think that should be reduced to two. Teams rountinelu take advantage of there being no real penalty for committing multiple fouls in the middle of the field simply to slow down the game. Notre dame is a master of this. Fewer fast breaks is a less exciting game. Reduce the number of “free fouls” to two and game gets better.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... les-injury


WOW! Seems like the IWLCA and the reffing organization saw this coming too!

PhanLax99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:33 pm https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... les-injury


WOW! Seems like the IWLCA and the reffing organization saw this coming too!

Assuming Mom is definitely spearheading attention on this issue.

madlaxer59 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:09 pm

PhanLax99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:33 pm https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... les-injury


WOW! Seems like the IWLCA and the reffing organization saw this coming too!

Assuming Mom is definitely spearheading attention on this issue.

She has been both on Twitter and Instagram. Mom was also the former president of Instacart & currently sits on the board of directors at Disney, Villanova University, and Coca-Cola just to name a few.

madlaxer59 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:09 pm

PhanLax99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:33 pm https://www.espn.com/college-sports/sto ... les-injury


WOW! Seems like the IWLCA and the reffing organization saw this coming too!

Assuming Mom is definitely spearheading attention on this issue.

And the game should be better for it. The injury was a rare one, but the cause certainly is not. If the sport ignores the cause, similar injuries can be expected to recur. Until refs start issuing red cards for flagrant fouls, the overboard checking will not stop. I am not necessarily suggesting that the particular check in the Yale player merited a red card. My point is a more general one -- I have not seen a red card in the countless games I have attended and watched in the last several years, but I certainly saw many fouls meriting ejection. Until the punishment for overly aggressive contact is something other than a two-minute yellow card, that type of contact will continue.

PhanLax99 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:30 am Nearly half way through the regular season and it seems like the majority of the discourse online (instagram, twitter, etc) seems to be on the increasing physicality of the game. Starting with the unfortunate injury to the Yale player (good to see that she is out of the hospital) and following with multiple posts/tweets about fouls from this past weekend, it seems like the game is a crossroads. I would be interested in hearing what others think about where the game is going and how to improve the product on the field?

A few thoughts on how to make it better, a little safer, but probably not with the thinking of the majority but some things to ponder:

This awesome game could be improved by:

- flopping and faking a stick to the head ..start carding those types of things ..it’s subjective just the same as when they card the defense

-defensive players, running the length of the field with their cross 3 inches in front of their face. Start carding, illegal, cradles, or at the very least calling it more. It makes for a dangerous game when defenders are allowed to do that as they are literally un-checkable legally

-offensive players cradling illegally on 8 m shots

-more dangerous propels and follow through sneed to be called

-card more repetitive fouling…or better yet…

-keep track of personal fouls just as in basketball in a certain amount disqualifies a player for the rest of that game. I’m thinking 4. Stops the player who continually fouls

Old Bay addict wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:27 pm

PhanLax99 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:30 am Nearly half way through the regular season and it seems like the majority of the discourse online (instagram, twitter, etc) seems to be on the increasing physicality of the game. Starting with the unfortunate injury to the Yale player (good to see that she is out of the hospital) and following with multiple posts/tweets about fouls from this past weekend, it seems like the game is a crossroads. I would be interested in hearing what others think about where the game is going and how to improve the product on the field?

A few thoughts on how to make it better, a little safer, but probably not with the thinking of the majority but some things to ponder:

This awesome game could be improved by:

- flopping and faking a stick to the head ..start carding those types of things ..it’s subjective just the same as when they card the defense

-defensive players, running the length of the field with their cross 3 inches in front of their face. Start carding, illegal, cradles, or at the very least calling it more. It makes for a dangerous game when defenders are allowed to do that as they are literally un-checkable legally

-offensive players cradling illegally on 8 m shots

-more dangerous propels and follow through sneed to be called

-card more repetitive fouling…or better yet…

-keep track of personal fouls just as in basketball in a certain amount disqualifies a player for the rest of that game. I’m thinking 4. Stops the player who continually fouls

I agree

This ultimately falls on coaches who teach and encourage a certain level and style of play, basically all of them. I also agree with Dmac that stick technology has forced more physicality.
Automatic yellow for contact with horizontal stick or a swinging check, whether it makes contact or not, yellow after 2 minor fouls in a sequence, yellow for the shots that are taken with zero consideration for who is between the player and goal. Teams play down after 4 cards.
It will be ugly at first with stoppages and arguing but if the power is put back in the Officials hands and coaches have to just deal with it, it will stop.

Old Bay addict wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:27 pm

PhanLax99 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:30 am Nearly half way through the regular season and it seems like the majority of the discourse online (instagram, twitter, etc) seems to be on the increasing physicality of the game. Starting with the unfortunate injury to the Yale player (good to see that she is out of the hospital) and following with multiple posts/tweets about fouls from this past weekend, it seems like the game is a crossroads. I would be interested in hearing what others think about where the game is going and how to improve the product on the field?

A few thoughts on how to make it better, a little safer, but probably not with the thinking of the majority but some things to ponder:

This awesome game could be improved by:

- flopping and faking a stick to the head ..start carding those types of things ..it’s subjective just the same as when they card the defense

-defensive players, running the length of the field with their cross 3 inches in front of their face. Start carding, illegal, cradles, or at the very least calling it more. It makes for a dangerous game when defenders are allowed to do that as they are literally un-checkable legally

-offensive players cradling illegally on 8 m shots

-more dangerous propels and follow through sneed to be called

-card more repetitive fouling…or better yet…

-keep track of personal fouls just as in basketball in a certain amount disqualifies a player for the rest of that game. I’m thinking 4. Stops the player who continually fouls

I like a lot of what you said. Keeping track of personal fouls in bball and men's lacrosse is so much easier because they have to come to the table and tell scorekeeper who did what The "play on" in women's would lead to a lot of mis assigned fouls.