Ivy League

[seacoaster]

Going to be interesting to see Princeton, which chose to schedule a ranked quality opponent right out of the gate, and one coming off a tough loss to boot. I think the Hoos probably pick off the Tigers in a close one.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

...one coming off a tough loss to boot. I think the Hoos probably pick off the Tigers in a close one.

Sound logic there. Plus, they'd better take advantage of the opportunity because BC comes to town on Wednesday and the chances of beating them are highly improbable.

[Brownlax]

Every Ivy League team won their opener yesterday. Glad to see it. Granted, none of the 6 teams in action beat a ranked opponent but that's not important. The Ancient Eight are back.

Princeton beat UVA who was ranked.

[TNLAX]

Every Ivy League team won their opener yesterday. Glad to see it. Granted, none of the 6 teams in action beat a ranked opponent but that's not important. The Ancient Eight are back.

Princeton beat UVA who was ranked.

Accurate statement, but should they be ranked? (UVA)

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Every Ivy League team won their opener yesterday. Glad to see it. Granted, none of the 6 teams in action beat a ranked opponent but that's not important. The Ancient Eight are back.

Princeton beat UVA who was ranked.

I posted this after Saturday’s games. Princeton didn’t play UVA till Sunday.

[runrussellrun]

Anyone have an explanation as to why the Ivy League hasn't played for a n$aa championship, in what seems like forever ? Is Dartmouth the last to play in the F4 ?

Ivy league mens lacrosse teams fare better, in terms of playoff invites and performance. Are Ivies just window dressing "equality", but not really supporting women's programs , the same as the mens ?

[hmmm]

Anyone have an explanation as to why the Ivy League hasn't played for a n$aa championship, in what seems like forever ? Is Dartmouth the last to play in the F4 ?

Ivy league mens lacrosse teams fare better, in terms of playoff invites and performance. Are Ivies just window dressing "equality", but not really supporting women's programs , the same as the mens ?

There's much more parity in men's lacrosse in general, it's not specific to the Ivies. Since 2005 there have only been 5 different teams to win a championship in women's lacrosse. Northwestern has 7, MD has 5, UNC has 2 and JMU and BC each have 1. On the flip side, 9 different men's teams have won a championship since 2005 with UVA having the most at 4.

[Lax101]

On the women's side there are some very good players playing for Ivy teams but at the end of the day you need depth of talent to make a legit run at a title and not just a few very good players. The Ivies also do not give athletic scholarships (everything is need based) and that puts them at a major disadvantage. Many families prefer to send kids to great schools like Stanford, NW, Duke etc and get a big scholarship instead of little to nothing at a very liberal Ivy school. There are so many options for players who want a great education, strong lax and a meaningful scholarship.

[runrussellrun]

Anyone have an explanation as to why the Ivy League hasn't played for a n$aa championship, in what seems like forever ? Is Dartmouth the last to play in the F4 ?

Ivy league mens lacrosse teams fare better, in terms of playoff invites and performance. Are Ivies just window dressing "equality", but not really supporting women's programs , the same as the mens ?

There's much more parity in men's lacrosse in general, it's not specific to the Ivies. Since 2005 there have only been 5 different teams to win a championship in women's lacrosse. Northwestern has 7, MD has 5, UNC has 2 and JMU and BC each have 1. On the flip side, 9 different men's teams have won a championship since 2005 with UVA having the most at 4.

objectively dissagree with the parity opinion... plenty of great talent on the womens side...but since the soul selling "club only" feel colleges coach ooze out......you know the rest. ...certainly MORE opportunities to play Div. I women's lacrosse, 30 or so more.

I know women's lacrosse history very well, but just couldn't recall what the original ask was/is.

Going back to 2009 season, PENN was the only Ivy team to make it to F4 weekend. 5 or 6 Ivies played, in that span of 10 seasons, in the quarter finals. On the mens side, Yale alone, has more 1/4 final appearances.

hmmm, something is up. the dispartity in results can't ALL be attributed to the lack of quality female players in the talent pool. Could absolutely be the case. But, than, we would have to ask why that IS the case, in the first place. Who, exactly, i$ developing women$ lacro$$e player$ in thi$ country ?

Mean, what young child, and their parents, couldn't go upN down college rosters, specifically bios...and that part about " played for _________club team ".


a C of white......carry on

[runrussellrun]

On the women's side there are some very good players playing for Ivy teams but at the end of the day you need depth of talent to make a legit run at a title and not just a few very good players. The Ivies also do not give athletic scholarships (everything is need based) and that puts them at a major disadvantage. Many families prefer to send kids to great schools like Stanford, NW, Duke etc and get a big scholarship instead of little to nothing at a very liberal Ivy school. There are so many options for players who want a great education, strong lax and a meaningful scholarship.

e

Yale is no longer part of the Ivy league ?

Your scholarship example isn't a good one. The IVY league MEN.........follow the same rules, yes.

[LaxThoughts]

On the women's side there are some very good players playing for Ivy teams but at the end of the day you need depth of talent to make a legit run at a title and not just a few very good players. The Ivies also do not give athletic scholarships (everything is need based) and that puts them at a major disadvantage. Many families prefer to send kids to great schools like Stanford, NW, Duke etc and get a big scholarship instead of little to nothing at a very liberal Ivy school. There are so many options for players who want a great education, strong lax and a meaningful scholarship.

Ivies' future recruiting will not be helped by the almost gleeful stick they impaled into their student athletes' eyes based on Covid. Those decisions made abundantly clear that the Ivies do not value their athletes nearly to the extent that other conferences do, and some administrators are openly hostile to athletics. There always will be kids -- and more often their parents -- who chase the prestige of the diploma -- or the parent's ability to say that his kid attends an Ivy school. But I expect that as kids become increasingly savvy consumers, more and more will prioritize the most supportive environment over the name, especially when the ever-spiraling price tag is considered.

[sanelaxparent]

One thing helping Ivy League recruitment in all sports has been the 'test optional' stance of most top Universities since COVID began. The 2021s, 2022s and 2023s have been recruited under these terms. Wager to say 50% of the recruits I've watched on film have boasted a 4.0 GPA, how impressive that really is varies widely from a top prep school to a mediocre public school. Also does not take into account rigor.

Have had countless alums tell me they can't believe the athletes who are getting into and playing at their IVY alma maters, and this will continue. Academic standards are more watered down for athletes and other desired target groups than ever (see legacy donors as well). Without scores being an objective equalizer, the schools can continue to take whoever they want which is going to deepen the divide of the profiles of the typical student and the student athletes at Ivies.

[watcherinthewoods]

I had not considered the impact of test optional on ALL recruiting, but agree it will have a disproportionate impact on Ivies and other "tough admit" schools. Test optional removes a significant quantifiable measure of student qualifications ... not that these always tell the whole story. Also agree the true importance placed (or NOT placed) on athletics in the Ivies exposed by COVID will make families and players think twice about other options.

As for the quality of the Ivy men's side vs. women on the national scene ... it is fairly common knowledge that wealthy alums routinely contribute to fund tuition for men's players. Although upwards of 50% of the team budget on the women's side is funded by parents and "Friends of" groups, I have never heard of a woman player in the Ivies getting help on tuition. Not offering an opinion on these practices or situations, just stating the facts.

(It made me chuckle to see the Ivies referenced as "liberal" vs. Stanford. Have you been to Palo Alto? )

[MDlaxfan76]

I had not considered the impact of test optional on ALL recruiting, but agree it will have a disproportionate impact on Ivies and other "tough admit" schools. Test optional removes a significant quantifiable measure of student qualifications ... not that these always tell the whole story. Also agree the true importance placed (or NOT placed) on athletics in the Ivies exposed by COVID will make families and players think twice about other options.

As for the quality of the Ivy men's side vs. women on the national scene ... it is fairly common knowledge that wealthy alums routinely contribute to fund tuition for men's players. Although upwards of 50% of the team budget on the women's side is funded by parents and "Friends of" groups, I have never heard of a woman player in the Ivies getting help on tuition. Not offering an opinion on these practices or situations, just stating the facts.

(It made me chuckle to see the Ivies referenced as "liberal" vs. Stanford. Have you been to Palo Alto? )

Whoa!

No, there's NO money funded by alumni or anyone else covering ANY part of the tuition for athletes in specific at Ivies. None.

You may be confusing the monies raised supporting coaches salaries, equipment, travel, technology etc that all of the Ivy sports raise from their Friends groups. The Friends groups are combined men and women supporters of that sport in specific and the monies are distributed to each program, not by who donates, but to meet the overall needs of both programs combined. The exception is endowed coaches salaries or a need highly specific to one or the other program. For instance, the Dartmouth Women's HC position was recently endowed, the Men's is not yet, though it's imminent. The Men's program there has carried most of the funding weight over the decades (more alumni at peak earning years and retired) but the women have recently come on strong as more generations of women have built up. Same is true at most Ivies, I believe.

Back to financial aid:
Tuition support is entirely need based, with admissions entirely need blind at all the Ivies. So, an admitted athlete has the exact same opportunities as any other admitted student to receive economic aid for tuition, board, etc. And the Ivies are extremely generous, with some support even available (at most, not all Ivies) up to $200k family income and 100% free for below $75k. No ding for home value. Multiple kids factored into formula. The numbers vary slightly by school, but they're all designed to make it affordable for all families.

And I've never heard anything differentially between men's and women's percentage receiving full or partial financial aid...lots do receive aid. But not all do or apply. I can't see why it would be different by gender as that's certainly not a factor in the financial aid office.

[watcherinthewoods]

I have direct experience in the Ivies ... and having footed the bill, I am more than aware of the need-based only policy. I don't know about the specific numbers/limits, but these can vary by school. And PS no merit scholarships either, so they keep it even.

Absolutely on the level of involvement from "friends" groups, although I was a bit shocked at what is required of families outside of tuition. Maybe not required, but without these funds/support, the budgets for these programs do not balance.

On the tuition point, I know first-hand from parents that men's players get support for tuition at multiple Ivies. In fact, one parent told me ... "why would my son go to Penn State and get a 25% athletic scholarship ... we did better on money at XXXX Ivy". Dirty little Ivy secret, I guess.

And finally, I know that many schools are doing their best to make college more affordable, but at $85K/year (many schools, not just Ivies in this range) many working families don't qualify for need-based aid and simply do not make enough money for this to be an option. So, you get a lot of kids at full price and a lot of kids on a full ride ... and very few kids in the middle. I don't have an answer, but a problem nonetheless.

[MDlaxfan76]

I have direct experience in the Ivies ... and having footed the bill, I am more than aware of the need-based only policy. I don't know about the specific numbers/limits, but these can vary by school. And PS no merit scholarships either, so they keep it even.

Right, NO money outside of need based...I'm quite aware of the formulas and they are very generous, at all the Ivies, though most so at HPYD. Families with up to $200k in family income, million dollar homes, can still get some support. 100% free if family income less than $75k.

Absolutely on the level of involvement from "friends" groups, although I was a bit shocked at what is required of families outside of tuition. Maybe not required, but without these funds/support, the budgets for these programs do not balance.

No, the parents' contribution is not expected to be much if anything, the alumni carry 95+% of the load. Every once in a while there is a super wealthy parent who chips up big, but that's not expected. The parents generally raise most of their contribution by organizing and selling various team oriented apparel/swag etc.

On the tuition point, I know first-hand from parents that men's players get support for tuition at multiple Ivies. In fact, one parent told me ... "why would my son go to Penn State and get a 25% athletic scholarship ... we did better on money at XXXX Ivy". Dirty little Ivy secret, I guess.

This one is 100% wrong. You are undoubtedly hearing a parent referencing having tapped the generous need based formula, not something "secret" or special to athletes. This is a super big deal at the Ivies and would be a major scandal if found.

And finally, I know that many schools are doing their best to make college more affordable, but at $85K/year (many schools, not just Ivies in this range) many working families don't qualify for need-based aid and simply do not make enough money for this to be an option. So, you get a lot of kids at full price and a lot of kids on a full ride ... and very few kids in the middle. I don't have an answer, but a problem nonetheless.

Not sure what you mean by "working families". Do you mean families between $65k and $200k?? Or do you mean families above $200K?

I'd urge anyone in the $65-$200k family income range to investigate for themselves at the Ivies they hope to have their kid consider. They are not identical and the HPY group tend to be the first movers in expanding the amount of aid in a bit of an arms race to attract the very top desired applicants regardless of income, but all are very generous.

By example, a family at Harvard, where my son went, earning $150k is expected to pay not more than 10% of family income ($15k for the math challenged). 55% of their students receive financial aid, with 20% full ride, 35% receiving partial. This is indeed far better than a 25% ride at BigStateU. Even a couple hundred families above $200k receive some aid due to extenuating circumstances (eg multiple children, special costs) https://college.harvard.edu/guides/fina ... fact-sheet

Indeed, the average family contribution at Harvard is under $13k.

My wife's and my alma mater is close to these #'s.

BTW, don't go to the coaches to ask for their assistance in the financial aid process...the best they can and should do is give you the financial aid office telephone #, website, etc. They need to keep their hands clean of that, so don't put them in the awkward position of even talking about it. But it's really not hard to learn what you can expect...that said, the application for financial aid doesn't happen until after actual acceptance, so this does require some faith and patience, which it's understandable that not everyone has.

[Dr. Tact]

Indeed, the average family contribution at Harvard is under $13k.

My wife's and my alma mater is close to these #'s.[/b][/color]

When my D was recruited, the two Ps were going to cost us $50K a year after aid. Not $13K....

[MDlaxfan76]

Indeed, the average family contribution at Harvard is under $13k.

My wife's and my alma mater is close to these #'s.[/b][/color]

When my D was recruited, the two Ps were going to cost us $50K a year after aid. Not $13K....

I dunno your financial situation, of course, but did you actually apply for the aid, or was that what you figured out based on the formulas at the time? How long ago?

Here's Penn's current situation; generous!: https://srfs.upenn.edu/financial-aid/un ... nd-figures

Princeton is even more generous: https://admission.princeton.edu/cost-ai ... id-numbers

[Dr. Tact]

Indeed, the average family contribution at Harvard is under $13k.

My wife's and my alma mater is close to these #'s.[/b][/color]

When my D was recruited, the two Ps were going to cost us $50K a year after aid. Not $13K....

I dunno your financial situation, of course, but did you actually apply for the aid, or was that what you figured out based on the formulas at the time? How long ago?

2017/18 and it was formula based.

[MDlaxfan76]

Indeed, the average family contribution at Harvard is under $13k.

My wife's and my alma mater is close to these #'s.[/b][/color]

When my D was recruited, the two Ps were going to cost us $50K a year after aid. Not $13K....

I dunno your financial situation, of course, but did you actually apply for the aid, or was that what you figured out based on the formulas at the time? How long ago?

2017/18 and it was formula based.

I just posted the formula links above, and I don't think they've changed that much in the last 5 years, though they do keep expanding it.

You must have a nice family income situation.