2021 Tournament

[Nigel]

5. Watch Salisbury trying to run out the clock, 4 RIT players are chasing, then realize they need to split up to find other players. One long-stick ran about 80 yards without stopping. Chasing the player with the ball from the lower left side all the way around the goal and then following the pass. When the pass was made up to the midfield he could have stopped. He didn’t and that caused the double team which pushed the Salisbury player to midfield for the call.

Ballsy play would've been for Sal player with the ball (in O zone, right in front of his bench, and unable to find an open teammate) to throw the ball all the way back to his uncovered GK, as RIT had their three attackman all on the midfield line. Make pass at 22 sec mark. Eliminates the chance for a Sal long pole infraction. GK receives at 20 sec mark and runs behind the cage, tick, tick,tick. RIT attackmen run after him and GK then launches the ball (probably 15 sec mark or less) full field, but keeps it in the field of play. Ball comes down deep in RIT def zone with 12 seconds left, or less, and who knows what happens next. Most likely the ball is on the ground and a battle royale is on. Tick, tick, tick. Somebody gets possession with 6-8 seconds left. If Sal gets the ball, game over. If RIT gets the ball, they have to go near the full field. Maybe they call a TO, maybe they just wing it back toward the Sal net. Regardless, if I'm Sal, I like my chances. Of course, the Sal coach could've called a TO at the 22 sec mark and done the same thing 1-2 seconds after the restart (avoiding the double team).

8. And an amazing play on the game winner. Salisbury D is not goal side. The cutter was in front of the net when the pass was made to the open side. Frozen rope. Great timing, great pass, great catch and shot.

While the Sal Dman did fall asleep in coverage and wound up NOT on goal side coverage, I can't believe the Sal GK stayed within the goal frame and allowed a pass from behind to essentially be caught right under his nose. It looked like the pass came thru the goal circle and could've been intercepted by a more aggressive GK. Now I'm not a lax GK, I never was a lax GK, (and I didn't stay at a Hilday Inn) but doesn't this seem obvious that the GK should've made himself 'bigger'? If the pass goes over the top to a middie, I think the GK has time to adjust if it's caught. Same thing if the ball goes to the far side of his cage or if the restarting attackman drives with the ball. I can't understand why he stayed 'small', covering only the net area, not anticipating the pass exactly as it happened.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but the slimmest of margins had one team making plays and one team not.


Replay available:
https://www.ncaa.com/video/lacrosse-men ... ull-replay

[Dr. Pretorious]

I felt that the Gulls played a lot of hero ball. I'm so used to seeing that big little game on the wing. I feel like they weren't moving off ball much.

No doubt.
Moroney was on fire - 5 for 6 shooting on the day - the Gulls’ best player that day - and he never touched the ball in either OT period ... instead, a couple guys too infatuated with their press clippings chose to take low percentage shots from 20-30 yards out, resulting in changes of possession each time.
RIT (through Moroney) had proven to be susceptible to the pass inside - Gulls never even attempted to get him the ball once in OT.
Maybe not as critical as Salisbury not calling a time out, but a close second ...

[islander]

5. Watch Salisbury trying to run out the clock, 4 RIT players are chasing, then realize they need to split up to find other players. One long-stick ran about 80 yards without stopping. Chasing the player with the ball from the lower left side all the way around the goal and then following the pass. When the pass was made up to the midfield he could have stopped. He didn’t and that caused the double team which pushed the Salisbury player to midfield for the call.

Ballsy play would've been for Sal player with the ball (in O zone, right in front of his bench, and unable to find an open teammate) to throw the ball all the way back to his uncovered GK, as RIT had their three attackman all on the midfield line. Make pass at 22 sec mark. Eliminates the chance for a Sal long pole infraction. GK receives at 20 sec mark and runs behind the cage, tick, tick,tick. RIT attackmen run after him and GK then launches the ball (probably 15 sec mark or less) full field, but keeps it in the field of play. Ball comes down deep in RIT def zone with 12 seconds left, or less, and who knows what happens next. Most likely the ball is on the ground and a battle royale is on. Tick, tick, tick. Somebody gets possession with 6-8 seconds left. If Sal gets the ball, game over. If RIT gets the ball, they have to go near the full field. Maybe they call a TO, maybe they just wing it back toward the Sal net. Regardless, if I'm Sal, I like my chances. Of course, the Sal coach could've called a TO at the 22 sec mark and done the same thing 1-2 seconds after the restart (avoiding the double team).

8. And an amazing play on the game winner. Salisbury D is not goal side. The cutter was in front of the net when the pass was made to the open side. Frozen rope. Great timing, great pass, great catch and shot.

While the Sal Dman did fall asleep in coverage and wound up NOT on goal side coverage, I can't believe the Sal GK stayed within the goal frame and allowed a pass from behind to essentially be caught right under his nose. It looked like the pass came thru the goal circle and could've been intercepted by a more aggressive GK. Now I'm not a lax GK, I never was a lax GK, (and I didn't stay at a Hilday Inn) but doesn't this seem obvious that the GK should've made himself 'bigger'? If the pass goes over the top to a middie, I think the GK has time to adjust if it's caught. Same thing if the ball goes to the far side of his cage or if the restarting attackman drives with the ball. I can't understand why he stayed 'small', covering only the net area, not anticipating the pass exactly as it happened.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but the slimmest of margins had one team making plays and one team not.


Replay available:
https://www.ncaa.com/video/lacrosse-men ... ull-replay

Yes, that would have been a very ballsy play, because it would have automatically given RIT the ball back... Can't go back over the midline once crossed in the clear with under 60 seconds left in the shot clock. Ref blows whistle for an "over and back" call (basketball backcourt rule). RIT ball. Throwing it back to the goalie would have eliminated the fast restart though haha!

[islander]

My favorite thing in this whole thread is Salisbury fans thinking the end of regulation was a "bad call" and the "wrong call" and the RIT fans, and literally everyone else in the world, knowing that it was absolutely the right call.

[Nigel]

5. Watch Salisbury trying to run out the clock, 4 RIT players are chasing, then realize they need to split up to find other players. One long-stick ran about 80 yards without stopping. Chasing the player with the ball from the lower left side all the way around the goal and then following the pass. When the pass was made up to the midfield he could have stopped. He didn’t and that caused the double team which pushed the Salisbury player to midfield for the call.

Ballsy play would've been for Sal player with the ball (in O zone, right in front of his bench, and unable to find an open teammate) to throw the ball all the way back to his uncovered GK, as RIT had their three attackman all on the midfield line. Make pass at 22 sec mark. Eliminates the chance for a Sal long pole infraction. GK receives at 20 sec mark and runs behind the cage, tick, tick,tick. RIT attackmen run after him and GK then launches the ball (probably 15 sec mark or less) full field, but keeps it in the field of play. Ball comes down deep in RIT def zone with 12 seconds left, or less, and who knows what happens next. Most likely the ball is on the ground and a battle royale is on. Tick, tick, tick. Somebody gets possession with 6-8 seconds left. If Sal gets the ball, game over. If RIT gets the ball, they have to go near the full field. Maybe they call a TO, maybe they just wing it back toward the Sal net. Regardless, if I'm Sal, I like my chances. Of course, the Sal coach could've called a TO at the 22 sec mark and done the same thing 1-2 seconds after the restart (avoiding the double team).

8. And an amazing play on the game winner. Salisbury D is not goal side. The cutter was in front of the net when the pass was made to the open side. Frozen rope. Great timing, great pass, great catch and shot.

While the Sal Dman did fall asleep in coverage and wound up NOT on goal side coverage, I can't believe the Sal GK stayed within the goal frame and allowed a pass from behind to essentially be caught right under his nose. It looked like the pass came thru the goal circle and could've been intercepted by a more aggressive GK. Now I'm not a lax GK, I never was a lax GK, (and I didn't stay at a Hilday Inn) but doesn't this seem obvious that the GK should've made himself 'bigger'? If the pass goes over the top to a middie, I think the GK has time to adjust if it's caught. Same thing if the ball goes to the far side of his cage or if the restarting attackman drives with the ball. I can't understand why he stayed 'small', covering only the net area, not anticipating the pass exactly as it happened.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but the slimmest of margins had one team making plays and one team not.


Replay available:
https://www.ncaa.com/video/lacrosse-men ... ull-replay

Yes, that would have been a very ballsy play, because it would have automatically given RIT the ball back... Can't go back over the midline once crossed in the clear with under 60 seconds left in the shot clock. Ref blows whistle for an "over and back" call (basketball backcourt rule). RIT ball. Throwing it back to the goalie would have eliminated the fast restart though haha!

Yeah, what a dummy I am. I completely forgot about the 'over and back' rule. Remembered it this am before I got your post. I grew up in the 'back in the day' 4 corners era. Thx.

[ah23]

The timeout should have been used 5-10 seconds before the play got to midfield. That it even got that far says to me that Berkman forgot about it. No other explanation for letting a d-mid run in circles all the way back up to midfield while being doubled. I think this is just one of those rare moments where a legendary coach had a brain fart. Even the great ones mess up.

Obviously RIT still had to go and win the game. Berkman forgetting he had a timeout didn't put the ball in the back of the net. But the timeout no-call is the single biggest reason that game didn't end in regulation. RIT maximizing every opportunity they had was second.

[ah23]

Also: I am not a Salisbury expert, but I remember scrolling through the Salisbury forum a few times this year and seeing "they play 1v1 lacrosse and don't move the ball" mentioned more than once during the regular season. It feels weird to make that claim about such a team that should in theory have all the talent and coaching in the world, but honestly it seemed to play out that way during the natty. A lot of 1v1 dodging for Salisbury, a lot of opportunistic/well-timed off ball cuts for RIT. Quinn Commandant can't dodge at all, but who cares? He had five goals - all assisted - because he abused Salisbury off the ball and his teammates had their heads up. More than one way to score.

[richard]

I’ve watched Salisbury for years. Berkman with the lead and time winding down has always played not to lose. He knew he had the time out and didn’t anticipate a problem on the defensive side. His d-man blew it up for him.

[Gullible]

Also: I am not a Salisbury expert, but I remember scrolling through the Salisbury forum a few times this year and seeing "they play 1v1 lacrosse and don't move the ball" mentioned more than once during the regular season. It feels weird to make that claim about such a team that should in theory have all the talent and coaching in the world, but honestly it seemed to play out that way during the natty. A lot of 1v1 dodging for Salisbury, a lot of opportunistic/well-timed off ball cuts for RIT. Quinn Commandant can't dodge at all, but who cares? He had five goals - all assisted - because he abused Salisbury off the ball and his teammates had their heads up. More than one

And w/ all that rhetoric you're spewing. Salisbury "still" should have won it- Hats off to RIT - Best two teams battled it out.

[Gullible]

My favorite thing in this whole thread is Salisbury fans thinking the end of regulation was a "bad call" and the "wrong call" and the RIT fans, and literally everyone else in the world, knowing that it was absolutely the right call.

You know what my favorite part of this thread is?? It's reading the giddiness you clowns get when the Gulls fail to win a championship... And then realizing the Gulls will be right back in the thick of it again.

[Dr. Pretorious]

No other explanation for letting a d-mid run in circles all the way back up to midfield while being doubled.

Pierre Armstrong isn’t/ never has been a D-middie at any time during his 5 years at Salisbury.

[MVPiccoli]

[/quote]

You know what my favorite part of this thread is?? It's reading the giddiness you clowns get when the Gulls fail to win a championship... And then realizing the Gulls will be right back in the thick of it again.
[/quote]

I wouldn't call it giddiness, I think it's just nice to see some variety. It's fun to watch other programs find their way. At least for me. I even found myself kind of rooting for the Gulls before halftime and during the 4th quarter. I have retained hatred for WAC and OWU, but Salisbury is just a program to admire. I always thought it was amazing that they would develop guys for two, sometimes three years, and they'd break out as AAs as juniors and seniors. That doesn't happen at most programs and speaks to the depth and staff.

At the Linc in 2019 all the Amherst fans (who were amazing BTW) would chat it up with us in the beer lines and what not...basically just so thankful to see anyone but Salisbury on the other side...obviously, we felt the same way, but no one is under any illusions that the Gulls are going anywhere while Coach Berkman leads the program and likely beyond.

[ah23]

Pierre Armstrong isn’t/ never has been a D-middie at any time during his 5 years at Salisbury.

Yeah I totally forgot that Greik passed to Armstrong right at the end of the play, good call. I was referring to Greik (definitely a d-mid) running around in circles with a double/triple/quadruple team from one side of the field to another from ~0:44 until ~0:24. My point would still be that the timeout should have been called by about 0:20, once the ball was being run into a dangerous part of the field. Any time before that would also have been useful of course!

And w/ all that rhetoric you're spewing. Salisbury "still" should have won it- Hats off to RIT - Best two teams battled it out.

Not sure what rhetoric you think I'm spewing...I'm repeating what I thought seemed like informative posts I saw in the Salisbury 2021 thread earlier this season. I agree that Salisbury should have won it (I think I've said or at least implied as much); Murphy's takeaway check on Barnable (~0:51) should have sealed the game. But they made multiple critical mistakes over the next thirty seconds (not calling timeout, blatant interference) that gave RIT a chance. The Tigers did what great teams do: they punished mistakes and earned it.

[Gullible]

[/quote]
Not sure what rhetoric you think I'm spewing...I'm repeating what I thought seemed like informative posts I saw in the Salisbury 2021 thread earlier this season. I agree that Salisbury should have won it (I think I've said or at least implied as much); Murphy's takeaway check on Barnable (~0:51) should have sealed the game. But they made multiple critical mistakes over the next thirty seconds (not calling timeout, blatant interference) that gave RIT a chance. The Tigers did what great teams do: they punished mistakes and earned it.
[/quote]

Yep, the best two teams in the nation battled it out. But considering how they called the rest of game, I believe they should have kept the flag in their pocket. The ref had to call it because the RIT player was offsides when he fell. This implies that the SU hit him. The Gulls player had every bit as much right to occupy that space as RIT did This doesn't even broach the notion that the RIT player instigated the contact and ran into the D-man. This leaves us with the D-man lifting the stick and when you take into consideration what they let go throughout the game along with the fact there were only seconds left in the game, I don't believe the ref should have thrown the flag. Or at the very least, he should have corrected that quick start gaff they committed. Like it or not, the ref played too big of a role at the end of that game-

[KingPrat]

Yep, the best two teams in the nation battled it out. But considering how they called the rest of game, I believe they should have kept the flag in their pocket. The ref had to call it because the RIT player was offsides when he fell. This implies that the SU hit him. The Gulls player had every bit as much right to occupy that space as RIT did This doesn't even broach the notion that the RIT player instigated the contact and ran into the D-man. This leaves us with the D-man lifting the stick and when you take into consideration what they let go throughout the game along with the fact there were only seconds left in the game, I don't believe the ref should have thrown the flag. Or at the very least, he should have corrected that quick start gaff they committed. Like it or not, the ref played too big of a role at the end of that game-

I'm a college coach, and was watching this live. Remember saying immediately that it was interference. I read your description here and I had to go back and rewatch it, thinking that somehow I missed a LOT when I was watching it a couple weeks ago.

Can't tell specifically where RIT attackman was offside when he fell. If he was, maybe his hand? Inconsequential. Doubt there would have been a flag had the defenseman set a good pick, but maybe.

On the interference - The Salisbury D wasn't "occupying the space." He took a two step shuffle into the attackman's path and hip checked him. RIT did NOT initiate that contact. I have no idea what video you're watching. He very obviously moved into the attackman's path and made contact while moving.

It was SO obvious, especially with the trail official standing right there. It was 100% the correct call and there is no situation where you can swallow your whistle there, regardless of what happened previously. Especially with the ball within a reasonable distance to midline that the attackman could have made a play on the ball.

The restart wasn't THAT bad, I'm not sure I would have made a stink about it live. The whistle blew when the RIT mid was about 5 yards past midfield. There has always been discussion since the quick restart rules were modified a few years ago - focus for officials is to not worry too much about placement of the restart as long as it's a reasonable distance from where it's supposed to be. The official had already started sprinting ahead of the ball by the time RIT picked the ball up.

Also, to those talking about Berkman not taking a timeout - once the ball goes above the restraining line he can't. Watching the play again, the middie carrying the ball behind to X had beaten the defenders - not sure I would have called one there either.

Could he have on the dead ball? No. That was a modification a couple years ago. They're not entitled to the ball.

My best guess is that he trusted his midfielders to make the play (he had two very good ones with the ball), and wasn't expecting a bonehead decision from a defenseman behind the ball.

[Dlaxva5]

One thing to note as I rewatched the interference play. The RIT player was an LSM, meaning 6 foot pole to check the Salisbury player running along midfield. I stand by my comment from the other day.

Please don’t take away from both teams and all the phenomenal plays and players by claiming that one call was the difference. It was not.

[richard]

Yep, the best two teams in the nation battled it out. But considering how they called the rest of game, I believe they should have kept the flag in their pocket. The ref had to call it because the RIT player was offsides when he fell. This implies that the SU hit him. The Gulls player had every bit as much right to occupy that space as RIT did This doesn't even broach the notion that the RIT player instigated the contact and ran into the D-man. This leaves us with the D-man lifting the stick and when you take into consideration what they let go throughout the game along with the fact there were only seconds left in the game, I don't believe the ref should have thrown the flag. Or at the very least, he should have corrected that quick start gaff they committed. Like it or not, the ref played too big of a role at the end of that game-

I'm a college coach, and was watching this live. Remember saying immediately that it was interference. I read your description here and I had to go back and rewatch it, thinking that somehow I missed a LOT when I was watching it a couple weeks ago.

Can't tell specifically where RIT attackman was offside when he fell. If he was, maybe his hand? Inconsequential. Doubt there would have been a flag had the defenseman set a good pick, but maybe.

On the interference - The Salisbury D wasn't "occupying the space." He took a two step shuffle into the attackman's path and hip checked him. RIT did NOT initiate that contact. I have no idea what video you're watching. He very obviously moved into the attackman's path and made contact while moving.

It was SO obvious, especially with the trail official standing right there. It was 100% the correct call and there is no situation where you can swallow your whistle there, regardless of what happened previously. Especially with the ball within a reasonable distance to midline that the attackman could have made a play on the ball.

The restart wasn't THAT bad, I'm not sure I would have made a stink about it live. The whistle blew when the RIT mid was about 5 yards past midfield. There has always been discussion since the quick restart rules were modified a few years ago - focus for officials is to not worry too much about placement of the restart as long as it's a reasonable distance from where it's supposed to be. The official had already started sprinting ahead of the ball by the time RIT picked the ball up.

Also, to those talking about Berkman not taking a timeout - once the ball goes above the restraining line he can't. Watching the play again, the middie carrying the ball behind to X had beaten the defenders - not sure I would have called one there either.

Could he have on the dead ball? No. That was a modification a couple years ago. They're not entitled to the ball.

My best guess is that he trusted his midfielders to make the play (he had two very good ones with the ball), and wasn't expecting a bonehead decision from a defenseman behind the ball.

The restart was fine. As you said the ref was on the move. The RIT player hesitated slightly and looked over at the ref and saw him already in a sprint downfield and took off as he should. This is not like the ladies game where a player can commit a foul for their own teams gain. There was an obvious foul and Salisbury was penalized for it.

[wgdsr]

the interference call is more blatant every time is see it. in no world is that not called where the official is right there and in sight line. plus he had a pole to play the ball, and he landed over the line. which doesn't even matter given the infraction. but it does as there's no judgment involved if someone is "offsides". 90-95% of calls are judgment calls. offsides and how he got there is not. something had to be called and it had to be interference in this case.

but the restart whistle was literally 13-14 yards from where the infraction happened, a yard or 2 over the line. it was egregious. the ref running has nothing to do with anything. you can't expect salisbury to be able to play the ball when the guy is at a full sprint 13-14 yards downfield before a whistle blows.

[KingPrat]

but the restart whistle was literally 13-14 yards from where the infraction happened, a yard or 2 over the line. it was egregious. the ref running has nothing to do with anything. you can't expect salisbury to be able to play the ball when the guy is at a full sprint 13-14 yards downfield before a whistle blows.

The wing line on each side is 10 yards, and the whistle is blown with the RIT player still within the wing line. Salisbury player dropped the ball about 10 yards past where the interference happened, and that's where the restart should and did occur.

The rule reads that restart should happen " in the same relative position where the ball was when play was stopped." Has nothing to do with where the actual foul happened.

[SouthernLaxGenius]

Refs interpretation/how it's applied vs what the rule specifically states/is written.

We see it week in and week out.


https://laxallstars.com/2021-dii-diii-m ... in-review/