The Biden - Harris Era.

[HooDat]

1) UBI - that's essentially what we have had during COVID and you see what it has done to inflation. All UBI does is make the most basic of good that much more expensive. It is another path to the rich get richer and the poor get the shaft. It will lead to more and more violence from the have nots as they search for meaning in their lives. Humans NEED to have a purpose, they need to work, they don't thrive when there is nothing to do but drugs or bad art.

Inflation this month in 2022 is 100% coming from supply chain.... and labor shortage..... problems. If it was "there's too much money printed"? We would have had massive inflation post 08 crash. QE and all the bailouts.

And again under Trump pre-Covid, when he spent a couple trillion, and cut the firetruck out of taxes for the rich.

And respectfully, UBI leading to direct price increases assumes that we buy stuff made here. We don't, by and large. But I agree that man needs a purpose. What I would counter with is: UBI tied to guaranteed community service. Want a check? Teach a kid how to read. Or read books to folks in an elderly home. Or repave roads.....pretty limitless community needs out there.



Three obvious things we could do that would affect the middle class immediately?

1. eliminate all line item tax deals for corporations at the State level.

2. charge corporations by revenue, not "profit". This is a stupid, stupid way to tax companies.....you're punishing companies good enough to make a profit, while a the same time let poorly managed companies pay nothing. It's stupid whether you are Milton Friedman or Krugman. We need to change that.

3. single payer health care. Pick a system from the EU, and tweak it. I don't care which one. What we are doing now is 100% crushing the working class, and it needs to stop immediately.

These things would greatly increase cash for services for the middle class free education/vocational training.....reduced class sizes for K-12. Increased funding for teachers. Increased availability for things like teaching welding/construction/electricians/plumbers, etc. All these things can't be "outsourced", and ridiculously...all the trades are dealing with massive labor shortages. These are all six figure jobs in most cities.

Just some thoughts....

I’m on board for these! I’d add that if you do #2, you don’t need #1.

[HooDat]

2000, I'm trying to give HooDat the benefit of the doubt that he knew full well what the Big Lie is, what I meant in context. He's a smart guy and I respect his views.

So, I didn't understand how I was to take his question. Did he mean it humorously, flippantly? If so, I'd see that as inappropriate to the seriousness of the issue. But he may have meant it entirely differently...it just wasn't obvious to me how I should take it and I didn't want to assume anything in particular. I certainly didn't want to assume that he's been under a rock and really didn't know what the big Lie was referring to.

He's free to explain what he meant.

Meanwhile, do you have something substantive to add to this discussion? (HooDat did)
Or do you just want to criticize a poster, me in this case?

I must live under a rock. I have never once heard anyone refer to the “Big Lie”. Never once heard the phrase. I can make some guesses as to what or who it is about, but that’s all they’d be.

[MDlaxfan76]

2000, I'm trying to give HooDat the benefit of the doubt that he knew full well what the Big Lie is, what I meant in context. He's a smart guy and I respect his views.

So, I didn't understand how I was to take his question. Did he mean it humorously, flippantly? If so, I'd see that as inappropriate to the seriousness of the issue. But he may have meant it entirely differently...it just wasn't obvious to me how I should take it and I didn't want to assume anything in particular. I certainly didn't want to assume that he's been under a rock and really didn't know what the big Lie was referring to.

He's free to explain what he meant.

Meanwhile, do you have something substantive to add to this discussion? (HooDat did)
Or do you just want to criticize a poster, me in this case?

I must live under a rock. I have never once heard anyone refer to the “Big Lie”. Never once heard the phrase. I can make some guesses as to what or who it is about, but that’s all they’d be.

hah!
Big rock!

Geneva's link to wikipedia "Big Lie" provides a full historical perspective as well as the contemporary specific usage. The historical perspective is why I think it's so important to prevent a repetition of that path.

I think we're probably going to make it through this challenge without much more substantial political violence, but only if people take it seriously enough to sufficiently vote out Big Lie proponents before they gain control (as I don't believe they will relinquish such peacefully, democratically). Given current SCOTUS support for gerrymandering, dark money, and "state's rights" (when useful), and the construction of the Senate advantaging a rural minority, even if large majorities vote against Big Lie proponents it is not guaranteed to be enough.

And you're right, the understandable emphasis on economic insecurities makes the electorate ripe for a populist promising 'security', especially under a banner of blaming 'the Other' whether immigrants, or a different religion, or secularists, or globalists, or...

[MDlaxfan76]

1) UBI - that's essentially what we have had during COVID and you see what it has done to inflation. All UBI does is make the most basic of good that much more expensive. It is another path to the rich get richer and the poor get the shaft. It will lead to more and more violence from the have nots as they search for meaning in their lives. Humans NEED to have a purpose, they need to work, they don't thrive when there is nothing to do but drugs or bad art.

Inflation this month in 2022 is 100% coming from supply chain.... and labor shortage..... problems. If it was "there's too much money printed"? We would have had massive inflation post 08 crash. QE and all the bailouts.

And again under Trump pre-Covid, when he spent a couple trillion, and cut the firetruck out of taxes for the rich.

And respectfully, UBI leading to direct price increases assumes that we buy stuff made here. We don't, by and large. But I agree that man needs a purpose. What I would counter with is: UBI tied to guaranteed community service. Want a check? Teach a kid how to read. Or read books to folks in an elderly home. Or repave roads.....pretty limitless community needs out there.



Three obvious things we could do that would affect the middle class immediately?

1. eliminate all line item tax deals for corporations at the State level.

2. charge corporations by revenue, not "profit". This is a stupid, stupid way to tax companies.....you're punishing companies good enough to make a profit, while a the same time let poorly managed companies pay nothing. It's stupid whether you are Milton Friedman or Krugman. We need to change that.

3. single payer health care. Pick a system from the EU, and tweak it. I don't care which one. What we are doing now is 100% crushing the working class, and it needs to stop immediately.

These things would greatly increase cash for services for the middle class free education/vocational training.....reduced class sizes for K-12. Increased funding for teachers. Increased availability for things like teaching welding/construction/electricians/plumbers, etc. All these things can't be "outsourced", and ridiculously...all the trades are dealing with massive labor shortages. These are all six figure jobs in most cities.

Just some thoughts....

I’m on board for these! I’d add that if you do #2, you don’t need #1.

Very interesting formula. I might graduate it, though. Zero tax on small revenue companies, independently owned (not subsidiaries) and then progressively more as revenue gets very large. The % needn't be large to be very effective way to raise much more $.

How does this work with international sales, foreign companies, etc?

How do you guys feel about a small % wealth tax for individuals above some very high threshold? Unworkable?

[HooDat]

I assumed it had something to do with Jan 6. There’s a lot packed into that day and the subsequent events.

I’ll start by saying it was the most serious stress test of the greatest aspect of our Constitutional Republic - the peaceful transfer of power. At least since FDR flaunted tradition and continues to run and get elected due to the power of his office. But the good news is we passed the test! Score one for the good guys.

Second - I’m not sure how “big” the lie really is. Yes, Trump pushed things too far, and it sounds like he wanted to take it waaay too far. But, I don’t think there is a significant percentage of even populist republicans that believe the election results should be overturned. I do think there is a very large % of the GOP that is offended by voting irregularities that we have lived with forever. When pressed, I think the majority believe they aren’t meaningful, but they don’t understand the resistance to cleaned up voting rolls and identification standards that are widely accepted in other contexts. Anyway, I don’t believe that the bison hat wearing stars&bars waving loons are anywhere near the majority of even the MAGA crowd.

From my perspective, I wish Trump would go crawl into a golf bunker and stay there. But he is a distraction and no where near the risk to our democracy as thinks like family dynasties in politics, global and corporate interests manipulating our government, abuse of power by unaccountable bureaucracies. To paraphrase Malcolm X - the evil you know is there is easy to protect yourself from. You know you can’t trust Trump. Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, pick any Bush you want - they want power but pretend to represent the high road. They don’t. Most of us know deep down that they don’t. Most of us wouldn’t want to spent 15 minutes in their company, but we don’t have to worry about that because they’d never deign to spend that much time with us unless we had a checkbook in our hands….

[HooDat]

How does this work with international sales, foreign companies, etc?

How do you guys feel about a small % wealth tax for individuals above some very high threshold? Unworkable?

In my conceptualization, it is domestic sales. We lose tax on US companies selling abroad, but tax foreign companies selling in the US.

I’m not a fan of a wealth tax - don’t like punishing success, but I’d tax the heck out of inheritance. I’ve come full circle on that point. Use your wealth tj set junior up, anything over $1 million tax at like 75%. The current limit is like $11 million tax free - per inheritor.

[HooDat]

You want proof of how completely corrupt (and evil) our leaders are?

Ghislane Maxwell has testified, been sentenced and is serving time. She HAD to have named names.

How in God’s Earth isn’t every politician on the planet demanding to hear those names? How!?! There are countless wealthy powerful people who raped and abused children for their jollies, and we’re just going to let that slide?

If you are ok with the fact that Congress will run Kabuki theater for every BS reason in the planet but we get crickets in this, you either aren’t willing to think about it, or you are paying no attention. Pay attention!

These are bad people. They don’t even care that you know it anymore.

The silence on Pedo Island and the Lolita Express is deafening.

[Farfromgeneva]

1) UBI - that's essentially what we have had during COVID and you see what it has done to inflation. All UBI does is make the most basic of good that much more expensive. It is another path to the rich get richer and the poor get the shaft. It will lead to more and more violence from the have nots as they search for meaning in their lives. Humans NEED to have a purpose, they need to work, they don't thrive when there is nothing to do but drugs or bad art.

Inflation this month in 2022 is 100% coming from supply chain.... and labor shortage..... problems. If it was "there's too much money printed"? We would have had massive inflation post 08 crash. QE and all the bailouts.

And again under Trump pre-Covid, when he spent a couple trillion, and cut the firetruck out of taxes for the rich.

And respectfully, UBI leading to direct price increases assumes that we buy stuff made here. We don't, by and large. But I agree that man needs a purpose. What I would counter with is: UBI tied to guaranteed community service. Want a check? Teach a kid how to read. Or read books to folks in an elderly home. Or repave roads.....pretty limitless community needs out there.



Three obvious things we could do that would affect the middle class immediately?

1. eliminate all line item tax deals for corporations at the State level.

2. charge corporations by revenue, not "profit". This is a stupid, stupid way to tax companies.....you're punishing companies good enough to make a profit, while a the same time let poorly managed companies pay nothing. It's stupid whether you are Milton Friedman or Krugman. We need to change that.

3. single payer health care. Pick a system from the EU, and tweak it. I don't care which one. What we are doing now is 100% crushing the working class, and it needs to stop immediately.

These things would greatly increase cash for services for the middle class free education/vocational training.....reduced class sizes for K-12. Increased funding for teachers. Increased availability for things like teaching welding/construction/electricians/plumbers, etc. All these things can't be "outsourced", and ridiculously...all the trades are dealing with massive labor shortages. These are all six figure jobs in most cities.

Just some thoughts....

I’m on board for these! I’d add that if you do #2, you don’t need #1.

I used to be a VaT guy, it’s like religion in Europe so see why Afan who spent a bit of time over the loves it given it’s a monolithic concept overseas. But…over time I’ve seen that there’s as many or more flaws in it as there are in income taxation. More in many ways.

Same way I used to be heavy into parliamentary Vs our representative system but realized that was flawed too. Simple solutions are never simple is the point and there’s always going to be free riders abs arbitrage opportunities. No system should be implemented without gaming it out and folks having truly considered second order events and tail risk potential.

[a fan]

You know you can’t trust Trump. Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, pick any Bush you want - they want power but pretend to represent the high road.

+100. Hillary believes she's on the level. You can tell when you hear her speak. Bill was under no such pretensions...you could tell when you'd hear him speak. He's Han Solo....he knows he's a scoundrel.

[Farfromgeneva]

How does this work with international sales, foreign companies, etc?

How do you guys feel about a small % wealth tax for individuals above some very high threshold? Unworkable?

In my conceptualization, it is domestic sales. We lose tax on US companies selling abroad, but tax foreign companies selling in the US.

I’m not a fan of a wealth tax - don’t like punishing success, but I’d tax the heck out of inheritance. I’ve come full circle on that point. Use your wealth tj set junior up, anything over $1 million tax at like 75%. The current limit is like $11 million tax free - per inheritor.

Why not split the baby? $1mm feels low from a incentive to build wealth to secure the next generation in current cost of living. I don’t mind it being below $11mm/per but why not put it in the $3-6mm territory? I like $5 and linked to gdp/CPI if give the scale to choose from. Inherit $5mm and it guarantees security for your kid. I am worth far less but if I died today my kids (wife really) would inherit over $1mm. I don’t work for myself I work to provide for them. Otherwise I wouldn’t work 65-90 hour weeks regularly to this day and many over 100 previously. My hope is I can leave them w $2-$5mm to split and have it be relatively Louis (and big component of my wealth today is in my home which I never thought I’d get to but it just grew faster than income and other savings last few years especially given it’s levered). But I don’t live in the most expensive hood in Atlanta, maybe too 5 neighborhoods, and yet I have a seven figure 2,400sq ft home (that lives like a 2,000sw ft home based on crazy dormers and ceiling lines on upper floor making it harder to separate a lot of the space).

[MDlaxfan76]

How does this work with international sales, foreign companies, etc?

How do you guys feel about a small % wealth tax for individuals above some very high threshold? Unworkable?

In my conceptualization, it is domestic sales. We lose tax on US companies selling abroad, but tax foreign companies selling in the US.

I’m not a fan of a wealth tax - don’t like punishing success, but I’d tax the heck out of inheritance. I’ve come full circle on that point. Use your wealth tj set junior up, anything over $1 million tax at like 75%. The current limit is like $11 million tax free - per inheritor.

as someone likely to benefit from the higher threshold, but not testing its height, I don't like the $1mm...
Nor do I like not being able to leave the bulk of my own "success" to my family...btw, it's not per inheritor, it's per estate...now $12.06mm (was $11.7mm last year). Can have one inheritor or ten..or whatever. We don't have an "inheritance tax" in the US, it's an "estate tax". Above the $12.06mm, the federal gov't takes a piece, progressively higher % as the amount of the difference grows, with a 40% rate for amounts of $1mm or more.

So, selfishly, I like a higher threshold that means that the vast majority of family businesses, family farms, can be passed on without requiring sale etc. A lot of our "success" in America is driven by the success of these size businesses and people.

I'm more in the $50MM+ territory of taxing....there's an extreme amount of wealth held by very, very few people in that realm. Incredible wealth concentration. I think that's where the emphasis should be...I don't think 1-2% of wealth above that amount per year would make a dent on anyone's actual lifestyle, nor their philanthropic efforts if so disposed.

[MDlaxfan76]

You want proof of how completely corrupt (and evil) our leaders are?

Ghislane Maxwell has testified, been sentenced and is serving time. She HAD to have named names.

How in God’s Earth isn’t every politician on the planet demanding to hear those names? How!?! There are countless wealthy powerful people who raped and abused children for their jollies, and we’re just going to let that slide?

If you are ok with the fact that Congress will run Kabuki theater for every BS reason in the planet but we get crickets in this, you either aren’t willing to think about it, or you are paying no attention. Pay attention!

These are bad people. They don’t even care that you know it anymore.

The silence on Pedo Island and the Lolita Express is deafening.

But did she name names?

Prince Andrew certainly hasn't been unscathed...but unless the DOJ actually has the goods on someone, what are you expecting?

A Congressional hearing?

You're not a Q guy, are you?

[youthathletics]

Did you really ask him if he was a Q guy.....Good grief.

[MDlaxfan76]

Did you really ask him if he was a Q guy.....Good grief.

hey, he went way deep down that rabbit hole of accusations there, so not such a crazy question...whole lot of people think Q is onto something...pedophiles control the world stuff. Normal folks two years ago...and then went off the deep end...

But I should have used a wink emoji...it was more a 'negative reverse' than actually thinking he's into Q.

My question about congressional hearing was more serious, and even more so questioning the assumption that she named names.

I think the DOJ moves if they had the goods on someone...or a local US or district attorney does...but then again, who woulda thunk that the Secret Service would do a cover-up of Jan 6 ??? Just inept? or...

[MDlaxfan76]

I assumed it had something to do with Jan 6. There’s a lot packed into that day and the subsequent events.

I’ll start by saying it was the most serious stress test of the greatest aspect of our Constitutional Republic - the peaceful transfer of power. At least since FDR flaunted tradition and continues to run and get elected due to the power of his office. But the good news is we passed the test! Score one for the good guys.

Second - I’m not sure how “big” the lie really is. Yes, Trump pushed things too far, and it sounds like he wanted to take it waaay too far. But, I don’t think there is a significant percentage of even populist republicans that believe the election results should be overturned. I do think there is a very large % of the GOP that is offended by voting irregularities that we have lived with forever. When pressed, I think the majority believe they aren’t meaningful, but they don’t understand the resistance to cleaned up voting rolls and identification standards that are widely accepted in other contexts. Anyway, I don’t believe that the bison hat wearing stars&bars waving loons are anywhere near the majority of even the MAGA crowd.

From my perspective, I wish Trump would go crawl into a golf bunker and stay there. But he is a distraction and no where near the risk to our democracy as thinks like family dynasties in politics, global and corporate interests manipulating our government, abuse of power by unaccountable bureaucracies. To paraphrase Malcolm X - the evil you know is there is easy to protect yourself from. You know you can’t trust Trump. Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, pick any Bush you want - they want power but pretend to represent the high road. They don’t. Most of us know deep down that they don’t. Most of us wouldn’t want to spent 15 minutes in their company, but we don’t have to worry about that because they’d never deign to spend that much time with us unless we had a checkbook in our hands….

I wish you were right about the % of Republicans, much less MAGA Republicans, who still believe the Big Lie...but:
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2 ... ion-trump/

Some 60-70% of Republicans, depending on the poll, still believe that Biden was illegitimately elected, that Trump actually won if the valid votes were counted properly...that % is certainly higher than that for MAGA Republicans, because guys like me are in the 30-40% who think that's complete hogwash.

Trump knew better, but the strategy, prior to the election, even articulated publicly by Bannon, was to claim fraud if Trump lost...Trump for months had primed that pump. His campaign staff warned him that their numbers showed him losing, and as the results rolled him, they told him to expect the loss despite the early count lead. Then they told him he'd lost. Then Barr and others had their folks investigate all the spurious claims, and came back and told them they had no merit. 60 judges, including those put there by Trump himself, rejected the claims as meritless. He knew he'd lost and so did everyone around him, even the nutso crowd of Guilian et al...and they admitted, in legal filings, that they knew that their claims were meritless.

Pushed too far???

We can go on...but yeah, the Big Lie was the reason why people were outraged enough to become violent, still outraged even now...though the hearings are slowly whittling away on the edges.

But you're right, thanks to a handful of brave Republicans who rejected the Big Lie, the system held...barely...and only for now...

[HooDat]

I’ve got faith in our Constitution, working on having the same faith in those sworn to defend it! But it held!

[HooDat]

If I told you I was Q wouldn’t I have to kill your or something?

[cradleandshoot]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

It should be very interesting to see what comes from an open campaign, assuming Biden steps aside...heard a podcast from some ex Obama guys talking about how competitive campaigns are necessary to test the candidates, their abilities to attract and motivate good organizations, their ability to connect to voters...and yup, to raise dollars...without the campaign with Hillary, Obama would not have emerged as battle tested.

Had this same conversation with a long time Dem, in and out of government, retiring...really, really smart gal, engineer, very astute, very straight shooter, midwestern background...she was very strongly saying the older generation, basically boomers and older, need to step aside...from last campaign she likes in this order Klobuchar(but does she have the charisma), likes Buttigieg (but maybe still too soon), likes Booker a lot...we talked about Gavin Newsom a bit.

Newsom appears to be purposely picking the fight with DeSantis to create that contrast early on, making clear how he'd stack up against him...that'd be a credible contest...very likely to be able to marshall a national campaign organization.

Quite agree re AOC; give her two or three more major cycles, maybe a Senate seat...then maybe credible...

I hope you are not suggesting Gavin Newsom is a viable candidate for presidency. His own state brought a recall against him. He's quite possible one of the worst governors in the USA. You cannot be serious with that take. Just can't be. If you are, you are very clearly out of touch with reality.

I dunno, he won that recall vote 62% to 38%. Kinda overwhelming when it came down to it. So, that's the "reality".
He won the direct election in 2018 by the same margin.
I expect he'll do so again this fall.

If I had to choose between him and DeSantis or Trump, Newsom would be an easy choice.
Hogan another matter, but the MAGA types are all toast for me.

I was with a group in Baltimore County, 4 couples, last night, much of the spectrum of fairly moderate folks, left and right, registered Dems and registered R's, one I, none were negative about Hogan, whether they'd voted for him or not (most had)...each of the three R's at the table said that anyone who didn't take a strong position against the Big Lie, MAGA, etc were never going to get their votes...one put it, "January 6 was the end for me...before Jan 6 I could at least see supporting Trump, after January 6 if you didn't come out and stay strong against it, you're done..."

Do you and your friends represent middle American mainstream thinking? I'm not judging but I will take a wild guess and say you and your dinner friends are fairly affluent.
Mainstream middle Americans don't have the luxury of having the same philosophical debates you and your friends enjoy. They are up to their eyeballs in debt, can't afford to fill their gas tank, gas and electric bills are through the roof. Those are just for starters. IMO hard pressed and beaten down middle Americans are sick and tired of the R vs D debate. They very likely MD can't afford dinner in a nice restaurant with their friends. They very likely can't afford a Big Mac meal for their families at Mickey D's. If you think either party gives a chit about them explain to me where I am wrong. The only thing either party is concerned about is doing what they have to do to get re-elected. My wife and I are so damn lucky. We planned and saved for years to achieve what Bob Brinker refers to as the land of critical mass. I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

I quite agree with most of this, cradle.
Both parties have failed many of the "middle" (and the poor for that matter).

I'm not sure what that has to do with the rejection of Trump/MAGA and the Big Lie by the R's among this group at dinner. Surely you aren't saying that their relative affluence (yes, these could all be fairly described as at least top 10% in earners, some perhaps 1%...we were at one family's home) biases them to reject the Big Lie more than someone who earns less, but if so why would that be? From an economic position, these families all have done very well under both parties over these past several decades; not exactly upset with the Trump/GOP tax cuts, at least for their own pockets...all educated at pretty prestigious universities, multiple with various graduate degrees from such, all of the kids going to such...

Are you saying that MAGA/Big Lie supporters among the "middle" just don't have time, energy, attention to have learned enough to have an opinion? Too busy with other matters? (probably some truth to that).

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments? Polling would suggest that's true, though obviously educational attainment is not as strong an indicator as when overlapped with race, and even more so if also evangelical; each of those factors adds to the predictive strength.

My point wasn't so much that 'everyone' is rejecting the MAGA/Big Lie, just that there's a growing rejection of such from those who had previously voted GOP, some for Trump in 2016...that may well be mostly in the more highly educated, more affluent sector of the GOP...pretty big % of the GOP actually thinks Trump should be criminally charged...that's likely mostly that group.

IMO trump belongs in jail. The problem for prosecutors is how to go about building and prosecuting their case. Then they would have to keep 12 jurors focused on the case and the charges that will quickly resemble the OJ Simpson trial. The big lie is blended in with a sea of obfuscation and contradictions. I understand the fascination trump supporters have with him. I'm surprised that for many of them they are still under his spell. The dumpster proved he was and still is a train wreck waiting for a place to happen. IMO middle class America has enough problems to deal with to be concerned about trump. The COVID pandemic changed the perspective of the average citizen with what the government can do for them. That perspective is now concern about what the government will do to them. If you live in a reality where you can't pay your mortgage , your car payment, your grocery bill, your utility bill, your taxes and don't forget what it costs to see your doctor being concerned about anything trump is insignificant in your world. Your trying to convince Americans of the misdeeds of a former president that are irrelevant to the difficulties they face every day. Trying to convince them otherwise is going to be an uphill battle.

Fair, and thanks for the explanation.

It's indeed an uphill battle.

Not sure what you meant by what I bolded in red, but the rest made lots of sense to me.

What you bolded in read is very simple to define. The ever increasing amount of Americans, led by those of us in the working middle class are suffering from COVID fatigue. There is not a day that goes by anymore where the rules about COVID are not changed, tweaked, modified, re-evalulated then changed again, remodified, tweaked some more and so on and so on and so on. What my statement says simply is this... more and more people agreed with the measures federal, state and local governments first took. Today, more and more Americans don't trust the response from government. That is the genesis of my comment about more American people being concerned about what the government will do TO THEM. There was a report on our local news this morning predicting a reinstitution of mask mandates again in the fall. Right on cue, everybody is ready to swing back into panic mode. My wife and I have done everything by the book. We are both double vaccinated and double boostered. We both got COVID a week after booster #2. It was nothing more than a mild case of the flu for us. I'm sick of tired after each new report of yet a new and potentially more dangerous COVID variant... time to shut it all down again. There is such a thing as an abundance of caution that is morphing into paranoia with each new variant.

[kramerica.inc]

And lets also be honest that the power hungry, career, and pro gov't politicians enjoy the ability to use covid to really set their personal agendas.

[a fan]

What you bolded in read is very simple to define. The ever increasing amount of Americans, led by those of us in the working middle class are suffering from COVID fatigue. There is not a day that goes by anymore where the rules about COVID are not changed, tweaked, modified, re-evalulated then changed again, remodified, tweaked some more and so on and so on and so on. What my statement says simply is this... more and more people agreed with the measures federal, state and local governments first took. Today, more and more Americans don't trust the response from government. That is the genesis of my comment about more American people being concerned about what the government will do TO THEM. There was a report on our local news this morning predicting a reinstitution of mask mandates again in the fall. Right on cue, everybody is ready to swing back into panic mode. My wife and I have done everything by the book. We are both double vaccinated and double boostered. We both got COVID a week after booster #2. It was nothing more than a mild case of the flu for us. I'm sick of tired after each new report of yet a new and potentially more dangerous COVID variant... time to shut it all down again. There is such a thing as an abundance of caution that is morphing into paranoia with each new variant.

They're unwilling to accept that tens of millions are simply going to never get the vaccine, and want to protect those that are unvaccinated.

This is new territory for health officials.....asking them to care for those who are vaccinated, and ignore those who aren't. If they did that? Masks and distancing would be long, long gone.

It's the right move politically, and practically. But with over 1,000,000 dead Americans and counting, it's hard for health officials to just let it go.