The Biden - Harris Era.

[LaxFan2000]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

It should be very interesting to see what comes from an open campaign, assuming Biden steps aside...heard a podcast from some ex Obama guys talking about how competitive campaigns are necessary to test the candidates, their abilities to attract and motivate good organizations, their ability to connect to voters...and yup, to raise dollars...without the campaign with Hillary, Obama would not have emerged as battle tested.

Had this same conversation with a long time Dem, in and out of government, retiring...really, really smart gal, engineer, very astute, very straight shooter, midwestern background...she was very strongly saying the older generation, basically boomers and older, need to step aside...from last campaign she likes in this order Klobuchar(but does she have the charisma), likes Buttigieg (but maybe still too soon), likes Booker a lot...we talked about Gavin Newsom a bit.

Newsom appears to be purposely picking the fight with DeSantis to create that contrast early on, making clear how he'd stack up against him...that'd be a credible contest...very likely to be able to marshall a national campaign organization.

Quite agree re AOC; give her two or three more major cycles, maybe a Senate seat...then maybe credible...

I hope you are not suggesting Gavin Newsom is a viable candidate for presidency. His own state brought a recall against him. He's quite possible one of the worst governors in the USA. You cannot be serious with that take. Just can't be. If you are, you are very clearly out of touch with reality.

[MDlaxfan76]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

It should be very interesting to see what comes from an open campaign, assuming Biden steps aside...heard a podcast from some ex Obama guys talking about how competitive campaigns are necessary to test the candidates, their abilities to attract and motivate good organizations, their ability to connect to voters...and yup, to raise dollars...without the campaign with Hillary, Obama would not have emerged as battle tested.

Had this same conversation with a long time Dem, in and out of government, retiring...really, really smart gal, engineer, very astute, very straight shooter, midwestern background...she was very strongly saying the older generation, basically boomers and older, need to step aside...from last campaign she likes in this order Klobuchar(but does she have the charisma), likes Buttigieg (but maybe still too soon), likes Booker a lot...we talked about Gavin Newsom a bit.

Newsom appears to be purposely picking the fight with DeSantis to create that contrast early on, making clear how he'd stack up against him...that'd be a credible contest...very likely to be able to marshall a national campaign organization.

Quite agree re AOC; give her two or three more major cycles, maybe a Senate seat...then maybe credible...

I hope you are not suggesting Gavin Newsom is a viable candidate for presidency. His own state brought a recall against him. He's quite possible one of the worst governors in the USA. You cannot be serious with that take. Just can't be. If you are, you are very clearly out of touch with reality.

I dunno, he won that recall vote 62% to 38%. Kinda overwhelming when it came down to it. So, that's the "reality".
He won the direct election in 2018 by the same margin.
I expect he'll do so again this fall.

If I had to choose between him and DeSantis or Trump, Newsom would be an easy choice.
Hogan another matter, but the MAGA types are all toast for me.

I was with a group in Baltimore County, 4 couples, last night, much of the spectrum of fairly moderate folks, left and right, registered Dems and registered R's, one I, none were negative about Hogan, whether they'd voted for him or not (most had)...each of the three R's at the table said that anyone who didn't take a strong position against the Big Lie, MAGA, etc were never going to get their votes...one put it, "January 6 was the end for me...before Jan 6 I could at least see supporting Trump, after January 6 if you didn't come out and stay strong against it, you're done..."

[cradleandshoot]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

It should be very interesting to see what comes from an open campaign, assuming Biden steps aside...heard a podcast from some ex Obama guys talking about how competitive campaigns are necessary to test the candidates, their abilities to attract and motivate good organizations, their ability to connect to voters...and yup, to raise dollars...without the campaign with Hillary, Obama would not have emerged as battle tested.

Had this same conversation with a long time Dem, in and out of government, retiring...really, really smart gal, engineer, very astute, very straight shooter, midwestern background...she was very strongly saying the older generation, basically boomers and older, need to step aside...from last campaign she likes in this order Klobuchar(but does she have the charisma), likes Buttigieg (but maybe still too soon), likes Booker a lot...we talked about Gavin Newsom a bit.

Newsom appears to be purposely picking the fight with DeSantis to create that contrast early on, making clear how he'd stack up against him...that'd be a credible contest...very likely to be able to marshall a national campaign organization.

Quite agree re AOC; give her two or three more major cycles, maybe a Senate seat...then maybe credible...

I hope you are not suggesting Gavin Newsom is a viable candidate for presidency. His own state brought a recall against him. He's quite possible one of the worst governors in the USA. You cannot be serious with that take. Just can't be. If you are, you are very clearly out of touch with reality.

I dunno, he won that recall vote 62% to 38%. Kinda overwhelming when it came down to it. So, that's the "reality".
He won the direct election in 2018 by the same margin.
I expect he'll do so again this fall.

If I had to choose between him and DeSantis or Trump, Newsom would be an easy choice.
Hogan another matter, but the MAGA types are all toast for me.

I was with a group in Baltimore County, 4 couples, last night, much of the spectrum of fairly moderate folks, left and right, registered Dems and registered R's, one I, none were negative about Hogan, whether they'd voted for him or not (most had)...each of the three R's at the table said that anyone who didn't take a strong position against the Big Lie, MAGA, etc were never going to get their votes...one put it, "January 6 was the end for me...before Jan 6 I could at least see supporting Trump, after January 6 if you didn't come out and stay strong against it, you're done..."

Do you and your friends represent middle American mainstream thinking? I'm not judging but I will take a wild guess and say you and your dinner friends are fairly affluent.
Mainstream middle Americans don't have the luxury of having the same philosophical debates you and your friends enjoy. They are up to their eyeballs in debt, can't afford to fill their gas tank, gas and electric bills are through the roof. Those are just for starters. IMO hard pressed and beaten down middle Americans are sick and tired of the R vs D debate. They very likely MD can't afford dinner in a nice restaurant with their friends. They very likely can't afford a Big Mac meal for their families at Mickey D's. If you think either party gives a chit about them explain to me where I am wrong. The only thing either party is concerned about is doing what they have to do to get re-elected. My wife and I are so damn lucky. We planned and saved for years to achieve what Bob Brinker refers to as the land of critical mass. I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

[Farfromgeneva]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

Transport Mayor Pete!

[MDlaxfan76]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

It should be very interesting to see what comes from an open campaign, assuming Biden steps aside...heard a podcast from some ex Obama guys talking about how competitive campaigns are necessary to test the candidates, their abilities to attract and motivate good organizations, their ability to connect to voters...and yup, to raise dollars...without the campaign with Hillary, Obama would not have emerged as battle tested.

Had this same conversation with a long time Dem, in and out of government, retiring...really, really smart gal, engineer, very astute, very straight shooter, midwestern background...she was very strongly saying the older generation, basically boomers and older, need to step aside...from last campaign she likes in this order Klobuchar(but does she have the charisma), likes Buttigieg (but maybe still too soon), likes Booker a lot...we talked about Gavin Newsom a bit.

Newsom appears to be purposely picking the fight with DeSantis to create that contrast early on, making clear how he'd stack up against him...that'd be a credible contest...very likely to be able to marshall a national campaign organization.

Quite agree re AOC; give her two or three more major cycles, maybe a Senate seat...then maybe credible...

I hope you are not suggesting Gavin Newsom is a viable candidate for presidency. His own state brought a recall against him. He's quite possible one of the worst governors in the USA. You cannot be serious with that take. Just can't be. If you are, you are very clearly out of touch with reality.

I dunno, he won that recall vote 62% to 38%. Kinda overwhelming when it came down to it. So, that's the "reality".
He won the direct election in 2018 by the same margin.
I expect he'll do so again this fall.

If I had to choose between him and DeSantis or Trump, Newsom would be an easy choice.
Hogan another matter, but the MAGA types are all toast for me.

I was with a group in Baltimore County, 4 couples, last night, much of the spectrum of fairly moderate folks, left and right, registered Dems and registered R's, one I, none were negative about Hogan, whether they'd voted for him or not (most had)...each of the three R's at the table said that anyone who didn't take a strong position against the Big Lie, MAGA, etc were never going to get their votes...one put it, "January 6 was the end for me...before Jan 6 I could at least see supporting Trump, after January 6 if you didn't come out and stay strong against it, you're done..."

Do you and your friends represent middle American mainstream thinking? I'm not judging but I will take a wild guess and say you and your dinner friends are fairly affluent.
Mainstream middle Americans don't have the luxury of having the same philosophical debates you and your friends enjoy. They are up to their eyeballs in debt, can't afford to fill their gas tank, gas and electric bills are through the roof. Those are just for starters. IMO hard pressed and beaten down middle Americans are sick and tired of the R vs D debate. They very likely MD can't afford dinner in a nice restaurant with their friends. They very likely can't afford a Big Mac meal for their families at Mickey D's. If you think either party gives a chit about them explain to me where I am wrong. The only thing either party is concerned about is doing what they have to do to get re-elected. My wife and I are so damn lucky. We planned and saved for years to achieve what Bob Brinker refers to as the land of critical mass. I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

I quite agree with most of this, cradle.
Both parties have failed many of the "middle" (and the poor for that matter).

I'm not sure what that has to do with the rejection of Trump/MAGA and the Big Lie by the R's among this group at dinner. Surely you aren't saying that their relative affluence (yes, these could all be fairly described as at least top 10% in earners, some perhaps 1%...we were at one family's home) biases them to reject the Big Lie more than someone who earns less, but if so why would that be? From an economic position, these families all have done very well under both parties over these past several decades; not exactly upset with the Trump/GOP tax cuts, at least for their own pockets...all educated at pretty prestigious universities, multiple with various graduate degrees from such, all of the kids going to such...

Are you saying that MAGA/Big Lie supporters among the "middle" just don't have time, energy, attention to have learned enough to have an opinion? Too busy with other matters? (probably some truth to that).

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments? Polling would suggest that's true, though obviously educational attainment is not as strong an indicator as when overlapped with race, and even more so if also evangelical; each of those factors adds to the predictive strength.

My point wasn't so much that 'everyone' is rejecting the MAGA/Big Lie, just that there's a growing rejection of such from those who had previously voted GOP, some for Trump in 2016...that may well be mostly in the more highly educated, more affluent sector of the GOP...pretty big % of the GOP actually thinks Trump should be criminally charged...that's likely mostly that group.

[a fan]

I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

+100

[HooDat]

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments?

OK, I'll bite - what is the "BIG LIE"?

I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

+100

This is the ONLY issue. It is 1st, 2nd, all the way down to the 2,157th. If there is a 2,158th - it is that one too.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments?

OK, I'll bite - what is the "BIG LIE"?

It's a term for Trump's lie about winning the 2020 election.

[a fan]

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments?

OK, I'll bite - what is the "BIG LIE"?

I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

+100

This is the ONLY issue. It is 1st, 2nd, all the way down to the 2,157th. If there is a 2,158th - it is that one too.

I agree with this 100%. This is all that matters. I have yet to hear anything but platitudes from both parties as to how we help these Americans live in a 21st century economy. We're out of time on this.

How do we educate, train, house, and provide health care for the bottom 75% earners....in the global economy? We're failing them miserably.

[Farfromgeneva]

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments?

OK, I'll bite - what is the "BIG LIE"?

I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

+100

This is the ONLY issue. It is 1st, 2nd, all the way down to the 2,157th. If there is a 2,158th - it is that one too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

[MDlaxfan76]

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments?

OK, I'll bite - what is the "BIG LIE"?

I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

+100

This is the ONLY issue. It is 1st, 2nd, all the way down to the 2,157th. If there is a 2,158th - it is that one too.

First, should I assume you were simply being facetious re Big Lie?.
Others have answered, so I won't repeat.

Second, yes, "survival of the financial challenges ahead of them" is incredibly important and motivating. Always has been. Certainly people are worried right now, albeit their personal balance sheets are in a pretty darn good place to withstand some storms. Doesn't mean you're not gonna be very worried about that tornado being predicted...

But that's the fascist devil's playground, the fear and trepidation about an unknown future, of economic boogeymen and of course The Other...

We've done remarkably well in our country over many generations now, at least in part because of a fundamental confidence that our democratic system, with checks and balances, and the rule of law rather than men, would be resilient and by and large be fair, delivering equitable opportunities to advance one's family's standard of living...and that system, and the confidence in it, has done tremendously well...with rare exceptions, power has shifted peacefully, back and forth, with most citizens confident that we could expect such in the future. Yes, the reality has not always been equitable, some pretty darn big exceptions to such, but that arc of justice has at least been moving forward.

But the Big Lie threatens that confidence and trust in the democratic system at its core...so does the packing of SCOTUS that has been done by a minority...undermining trust in the "rule of law".

Traumas, creating public health and yo-yo economics have shaken our confidence in our economic futures...again, fertile ground for the fascist, especially when our institutional trust has been so degraded...

Obviously, it's even more complicated than all that, but yeah, the Big Lie is/should be super important to whether we have the resilience to withstand more shocks.

Frankly, I don't see one party more than another as most likely to successfully address the issue of "survival of the financial challenges ahead of them" better than the other, at least on a sustained basis.

I'm quite concerned, however, about those who think that if one party had absolute control they'd reliably deliver that "survival"...left, right, Dem, GOP...no absolutists please.

[HooDat]

How do we educate, train, house, and provide health care for the bottom 75% earners....in the global economy? We're failing them miserably.

This, plus the question "how do we enable them to be productive?", may be the critical conceptual issue of our time. Technology and cheap energy are making labor obsolete.

There are a lot of people with a lot of ideas about how we deal with this. Some are tinfoil hat and some are hair-brained "big ideas". have yet to hear anyone offer a real solution, but here are a few I know of that really think they can address the issue.

1) UBI - that's essentially what we have had during COVID and you see what it has done to inflation. All UBI does is make the most basic of good that much more expensive. It is another path to the rich get richer and the poor get the shaft. It will lead to more and more violence from the have nots as they search for meaning in their lives. Humans NEED to have a purpose, they need to work, they don't thrive when there is nothing to do but drugs or bad art.

2) Kill off 80% - 90% of the population. We don't need them. They eat too much, they are polluting the planet for "us". You better worry about whether you are a part of "us" at that point is all I am going to say.... Lots of tinfoil getting consumed as people think about this one. But you hear the implications in lot of people's voices when they say humanity is a virus and killing the planet, and that we shouldn't have children...

3) Go back. If you unwind some of the advances that have reduced global poverty to its lowest level in human history, you can make labor important again. Everyone's quality of life will go down as we undo some of the efficiency in the system. But perhaps we need to redefine efficiency - to include redundancy? This manifests itself with all the people who went "greenacres" over the past two years and are living the regenerative farming trad-wife lifestyle in Instagram.... Here is the problem with this one - even if we decide that the simple life is great, the uber-elite are NOT going to let you reduce their quality of life one bit (see option 2).

4) We gotta get to mars and fast. Elon's favorite Sci-Fi LARPing adventure. Not sure this is going to happen in time to help....

[HooDat]

their personal balance sheets are in a pretty darn good place

very worried about that tornado being predicted

that's the fascist devil's playground

fundamental confidence that our democratic system, with checks and balances, and the rule of law

packing of SCOTUS

no absolutists please

MD, I know you mean well, but if you can't see past your own cognitive dissonance I can't even....

[a fan]

1) UBI - that's essentially what we have had during COVID and you see what it has done to inflation. All UBI does is make the most basic of good that much more expensive. It is another path to the rich get richer and the poor get the shaft. It will lead to more and more violence from the have nots as they search for meaning in their lives. Humans NEED to have a purpose, they need to work, they don't thrive when there is nothing to do but drugs or bad art.

Inflation this month in 2022 is 100% coming from supply chain.... and labor shortage..... problems. If it was "there's too much money printed"? We would have had massive inflation post 08 crash. QE and all the bailouts.

And again under Trump pre-Covid, when he spent a couple trillion, and cut the firetruck out of taxes for the rich.

And respectfully, UBI leading to direct price increases assumes that we buy stuff made here. We don't, by and large. But I agree that man needs a purpose. What I would counter with is: UBI tied to guaranteed community service. Want a check? Teach a kid how to read. Or read books to folks in an elderly home. Or repave roads.....pretty limitless community needs out there.



Three obvious things we could do that would affect the middle class immediately?

1. eliminate all line item tax deals for corporations at the State level.

2. charge corporations by revenue, not "profit". This is a stupid, stupid way to tax companies.....you're punishing companies good enough to make a profit, while a the same time let poorly managed companies pay nothing. It's stupid whether you are Milton Friedman or Krugman. We need to change that.

3. single payer health care. Pick a system from the EU, and tweak it. I don't care which one. What we are doing now is 100% crushing the working class, and it needs to stop immediately.

These things would greatly increase cash for services for the middle class free education/vocational training.....reduced class sizes for K-12. Increased funding for teachers. Increased availability for things like teaching welding/construction/electricians/plumbers, etc. All these things can't be "outsourced", and ridiculously...all the trades are dealing with massive labor shortages. These are all six figure jobs in most cities.

Just some thoughts....

[MDlaxfan76]

their personal balance sheets are in a pretty darn good place

very worried about that tornado being predicted

that's the fascist devil's playground

fundamental confidence that our democratic system, with checks and balances, and the rule of law

packing of SCOTUS

no absolutists please

MD, I know you mean well, but if you can't see past your own cognitive dissonance I can't even....

well, when you cut out all the context surrounding each phrase, sure...but how about just telling us/me what you meant?

For instance, were you being facetious or not?

I'm assuming the positive.

[LaxFan2000]

their personal balance sheets are in a pretty darn good place

very worried about that tornado being predicted

that's the fascist devil's playground

fundamental confidence that our democratic system, with checks and balances, and the rule of law

packing of SCOTUS

no absolutists please

MD, I know you mean well, but if you can't see past your own cognitive dissonance I can't even....

well, when you cut out all the context surrounding each phrase, sure...but how about just telling us/me what you meant?

For instance, were you being facetious or not?

I'm assuming the positive.

Doesn't seem to be a hint of facetiousness in that post. You really think there is? That's odd.

[cradleandshoot]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

It should be very interesting to see what comes from an open campaign, assuming Biden steps aside...heard a podcast from some ex Obama guys talking about how competitive campaigns are necessary to test the candidates, their abilities to attract and motivate good organizations, their ability to connect to voters...and yup, to raise dollars...without the campaign with Hillary, Obama would not have emerged as battle tested.

Had this same conversation with a long time Dem, in and out of government, retiring...really, really smart gal, engineer, very astute, very straight shooter, midwestern background...she was very strongly saying the older generation, basically boomers and older, need to step aside...from last campaign she likes in this order Klobuchar(but does she have the charisma), likes Buttigieg (but maybe still too soon), likes Booker a lot...we talked about Gavin Newsom a bit.

Newsom appears to be purposely picking the fight with DeSantis to create that contrast early on, making clear how he'd stack up against him...that'd be a credible contest...very likely to be able to marshall a national campaign organization.

Quite agree re AOC; give her two or three more major cycles, maybe a Senate seat...then maybe credible...

I hope you are not suggesting Gavin Newsom is a viable candidate for presidency. His own state brought a recall against him. He's quite possible one of the worst governors in the USA. You cannot be serious with that take. Just can't be. If you are, you are very clearly out of touch with reality.

I dunno, he won that recall vote 62% to 38%. Kinda overwhelming when it came down to it. So, that's the "reality".
He won the direct election in 2018 by the same margin.
I expect he'll do so again this fall.

If I had to choose between him and DeSantis or Trump, Newsom would be an easy choice.
Hogan another matter, but the MAGA types are all toast for me.

I was with a group in Baltimore County, 4 couples, last night, much of the spectrum of fairly moderate folks, left and right, registered Dems and registered R's, one I, none were negative about Hogan, whether they'd voted for him or not (most had)...each of the three R's at the table said that anyone who didn't take a strong position against the Big Lie, MAGA, etc were never going to get their votes...one put it, "January 6 was the end for me...before Jan 6 I could at least see supporting Trump, after January 6 if you didn't come out and stay strong against it, you're done..."

Do you and your friends represent middle American mainstream thinking? I'm not judging but I will take a wild guess and say you and your dinner friends are fairly affluent.
Mainstream middle Americans don't have the luxury of having the same philosophical debates you and your friends enjoy. They are up to their eyeballs in debt, can't afford to fill their gas tank, gas and electric bills are through the roof. Those are just for starters. IMO hard pressed and beaten down middle Americans are sick and tired of the R vs D debate. They very likely MD can't afford dinner in a nice restaurant with their friends. They very likely can't afford a Big Mac meal for their families at Mickey D's. If you think either party gives a chit about them explain to me where I am wrong. The only thing either party is concerned about is doing what they have to do to get re-elected. My wife and I are so damn lucky. We planned and saved for years to achieve what Bob Brinker refers to as the land of critical mass. I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

I quite agree with most of this, cradle.
Both parties have failed many of the "middle" (and the poor for that matter).

I'm not sure what that has to do with the rejection of Trump/MAGA and the Big Lie by the R's among this group at dinner. Surely you aren't saying that their relative affluence (yes, these could all be fairly described as at least top 10% in earners, some perhaps 1%...we were at one family's home) biases them to reject the Big Lie more than someone who earns less, but if so why would that be? From an economic position, these families all have done very well under both parties over these past several decades; not exactly upset with the Trump/GOP tax cuts, at least for their own pockets...all educated at pretty prestigious universities, multiple with various graduate degrees from such, all of the kids going to such...

Are you saying that MAGA/Big Lie supporters among the "middle" just don't have time, energy, attention to have learned enough to have an opinion? Too busy with other matters? (probably some truth to that).

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments? Polling would suggest that's true, though obviously educational attainment is not as strong an indicator as when overlapped with race, and even more so if also evangelical; each of those factors adds to the predictive strength.

My point wasn't so much that 'everyone' is rejecting the MAGA/Big Lie, just that there's a growing rejection of such from those who had previously voted GOP, some for Trump in 2016...that may well be mostly in the more highly educated, more affluent sector of the GOP...pretty big % of the GOP actually thinks Trump should be criminally charged...that's likely mostly that group.

IMO trump belongs in jail. The problem for prosecutors is how to go about building and prosecuting their case. Then they would have to keep 12 jurors focused on the case and the charges that will quickly resemble the OJ Simpson trial. The big lie is blended in with a sea of obfuscation and contradictions. I understand the fascination trump supporters have with him. I'm surprised that for many of them they are still under his spell. The dumpster proved he was and still is a train wreck waiting for a place to happen. IMO middle class America has enough problems to deal with to be concerned about trump. The COVID pandemic changed the perspective of the average citizen with what the government can do for them. That perspective is now concern about what the government will do to them. If you live in a reality where you can't pay your mortgage , your car payment, your grocery bill, your utility bill, your taxes and don't forget what it costs to see your doctor being concerned about anything trump is insignificant in your world. Your trying to convince Americans of the misdeeds of a former president that are irrelevant to the difficulties they face every day. Trying to convince them otherwise is going to be an uphill battle.

[MDlaxfan76]

their personal balance sheets are in a pretty darn good place

very worried about that tornado being predicted

that's the fascist devil's playground

fundamental confidence that our democratic system, with checks and balances, and the rule of law

packing of SCOTUS

no absolutists please

MD, I know you mean well, but if you can't see past your own cognitive dissonance I can't even....

well, when you cut out all the context surrounding each phrase, sure...but how about just telling us/me what you meant?

For instance, were you being facetious or not?

I'm assuming the positive.

Doesn't seem to be a hint of facetiousness in that post. You really think there is? That's odd.

2000, I'm trying to give HooDat the benefit of the doubt that he knew full well what the Big Lie is, what I meant in context. He's a smart guy and I respect his views.

So, I didn't understand how I was to take his question. Did he mean it humorously, flippantly? If so, I'd see that as inappropriate to the seriousness of the issue. But he may have meant it entirely differently...it just wasn't obvious to me how I should take it and I didn't want to assume anything in particular. I certainly didn't want to assume that he's been under a rock and really didn't know what the big Lie was referring to.

He's free to explain what he meant.

Meanwhile, do you have something substantive to add to this discussion? (HooDat did)
Or do you just want to criticize a poster, me in this case?

[MDlaxfan76]

Biden's a goner, and for good reason. Only question is: who's going to run as a Republican?

I have no clue who runs for the red team, certainly hope its no trump, feel like it will be Ron, but I truly have no idea. Who do you think runs in place of Biden?

I can't even come up with a name, YA. I have no idea.

New faces, new ideas......badly, badly needed in the Dem party leadership.

As much as I like what AOC did to shut down special tax breaks to Amazon et. al, that are killing our middle class.....IMHO, no WAY is she ready for POTUS. And I can't think of anyone else who hasn't been in the stupid party for 20+ years.

Biden has ZERO leadership skills, if you ask me. And I have no clue who does have them in the Dem party.

It should be very interesting to see what comes from an open campaign, assuming Biden steps aside...heard a podcast from some ex Obama guys talking about how competitive campaigns are necessary to test the candidates, their abilities to attract and motivate good organizations, their ability to connect to voters...and yup, to raise dollars...without the campaign with Hillary, Obama would not have emerged as battle tested.

Had this same conversation with a long time Dem, in and out of government, retiring...really, really smart gal, engineer, very astute, very straight shooter, midwestern background...she was very strongly saying the older generation, basically boomers and older, need to step aside...from last campaign she likes in this order Klobuchar(but does she have the charisma), likes Buttigieg (but maybe still too soon), likes Booker a lot...we talked about Gavin Newsom a bit.

Newsom appears to be purposely picking the fight with DeSantis to create that contrast early on, making clear how he'd stack up against him...that'd be a credible contest...very likely to be able to marshall a national campaign organization.

Quite agree re AOC; give her two or three more major cycles, maybe a Senate seat...then maybe credible...

I hope you are not suggesting Gavin Newsom is a viable candidate for presidency. His own state brought a recall against him. He's quite possible one of the worst governors in the USA. You cannot be serious with that take. Just can't be. If you are, you are very clearly out of touch with reality.

I dunno, he won that recall vote 62% to 38%. Kinda overwhelming when it came down to it. So, that's the "reality".
He won the direct election in 2018 by the same margin.
I expect he'll do so again this fall.

If I had to choose between him and DeSantis or Trump, Newsom would be an easy choice.
Hogan another matter, but the MAGA types are all toast for me.

I was with a group in Baltimore County, 4 couples, last night, much of the spectrum of fairly moderate folks, left and right, registered Dems and registered R's, one I, none were negative about Hogan, whether they'd voted for him or not (most had)...each of the three R's at the table said that anyone who didn't take a strong position against the Big Lie, MAGA, etc were never going to get their votes...one put it, "January 6 was the end for me...before Jan 6 I could at least see supporting Trump, after January 6 if you didn't come out and stay strong against it, you're done..."

Do you and your friends represent middle American mainstream thinking? I'm not judging but I will take a wild guess and say you and your dinner friends are fairly affluent.
Mainstream middle Americans don't have the luxury of having the same philosophical debates you and your friends enjoy. They are up to their eyeballs in debt, can't afford to fill their gas tank, gas and electric bills are through the roof. Those are just for starters. IMO hard pressed and beaten down middle Americans are sick and tired of the R vs D debate. They very likely MD can't afford dinner in a nice restaurant with their friends. They very likely can't afford a Big Mac meal for their families at Mickey D's. If you think either party gives a chit about them explain to me where I am wrong. The only thing either party is concerned about is doing what they have to do to get re-elected. My wife and I are so damn lucky. We planned and saved for years to achieve what Bob Brinker refers to as the land of critical mass. I don't know how the average middle class working family is going to survive the financial challenges ahead of them. I do know for certain if they expect politicians of either party to lead them out of the abyss they will be waiting for a very long time.

I quite agree with most of this, cradle.
Both parties have failed many of the "middle" (and the poor for that matter).

I'm not sure what that has to do with the rejection of Trump/MAGA and the Big Lie by the R's among this group at dinner. Surely you aren't saying that their relative affluence (yes, these could all be fairly described as at least top 10% in earners, some perhaps 1%...we were at one family's home) biases them to reject the Big Lie more than someone who earns less, but if so why would that be? From an economic position, these families all have done very well under both parties over these past several decades; not exactly upset with the Trump/GOP tax cuts, at least for their own pockets...all educated at pretty prestigious universities, multiple with various graduate degrees from such, all of the kids going to such...

Are you saying that MAGA/Big Lie supporters among the "middle" just don't have time, energy, attention to have learned enough to have an opinion? Too busy with other matters? (probably some truth to that).

Or are you saying that the Big Lie is more appealing to those with less of those sorts of educational advantages/attainments? Polling would suggest that's true, though obviously educational attainment is not as strong an indicator as when overlapped with race, and even more so if also evangelical; each of those factors adds to the predictive strength.

My point wasn't so much that 'everyone' is rejecting the MAGA/Big Lie, just that there's a growing rejection of such from those who had previously voted GOP, some for Trump in 2016...that may well be mostly in the more highly educated, more affluent sector of the GOP...pretty big % of the GOP actually thinks Trump should be criminally charged...that's likely mostly that group.

IMO trump belongs in jail. The problem for prosecutors is how to go about building and prosecuting their case. Then they would have to keep 12 jurors focused on the case and the charges that will quickly resemble the OJ Simpson trial. The big lie is blended in with a sea of obfuscation and contradictions. I understand the fascination trump supporters have with him. I'm surprised that for many of them they are still under his spell. The dumpster proved he was and still is a train wreck waiting for a place to happen. IMO middle class America has enough problems to deal with to be concerned about trump. The COVID pandemic changed the perspective of the average citizen with what the government can do for them. That perspective is now concern about what the government will do to them. If you live in a reality where you can't pay your mortgage , your car payment, your grocery bill, your utility bill, your taxes and don't forget what it costs to see your doctor being concerned about anything trump is insignificant in your world. Your trying to convince Americans of the misdeeds of a former president that are irrelevant to the difficulties they face every day. Trying to convince them otherwise is going to be an uphill battle.

Fair, and thanks for the explanation.

It's indeed an uphill battle.

Not sure what you meant by what I bolded in red, but the rest made lots of sense to me.

[Farfromgeneva]

their personal balance sheets are in a pretty darn good place

very worried about that tornado being predicted

that's the fascist devil's playground

fundamental confidence that our democratic system, with checks and balances, and the rule of law

packing of SCOTUS

no absolutists please

MD, I know you mean well, but if you can't see past your own cognitive dissonance I can't even....

well, when you cut out all the context surrounding each phrase, sure...but how about just telling us/me what you meant?

For instance, were you being facetious or not?

I'm assuming the positive.

Doesn't seem to be a hint of facetiousness in that post. You really think there is? That's odd.

2000, I'm trying to give HooDat the benefit of the doubt that he knew full well what the Big Lie is, what I meant in context. He's a smart guy and I respect his views.

So, I didn't understand how I was to take his question. Did he mean it humorously, flippantly? If so, I'd see that as inappropriate to the seriousness of the issue. But he may have meant it entirely differently...it just wasn't obvious to me how I should take it and I didn't want to assume anything in particular. I certainly didn't want to assume that he's been under a rock and really didn't know what the big Lie was referring to.

He's free to explain what he meant.

Meanwhile, do you have something substantive to add to this discussion? (HooDat did)
Or do you just want to criticize a poster, me in this case?

Expect more of the same. Pattern has been set.