Bourbon

[a fan]

Crazy Hedge Fund Legal battle with Wilderrness Trail: https://www.wdrb.com/wdrb-investigates/ ... FzGBdgwNEE

Which I could speak to this, but I know the folks involved, and that wouldn't be proper.

That said....the last few years is the first time that financial speculators have started getting involved in bourbon purchasing. This is a dangerous game, if you ask me. For everyone. This is how bubbles are formed. And there is zero guarantee that the current top end prices will hold...and if you're buying a barrel of 2yo bourbon for $2500+, you HAVE to charge a VERY high price to get to break even.

And if you're not in a big distilling house (Brown Forman etc.), good luck moving those bottles.

[youthathletics]

Crazy Hedge Fund Legal battle with Wilderrness Trail: https://www.wdrb.com/wdrb-investigates/ ... FzGBdgwNEE

Which I could speak to this, but I know the folks involved, and that wouldn't be proper.

That said....the last few years is the first time that financial speculators have started getting involved in bourbon purchasing. This is a dangerous game, if you ask me. For everyone. This is how bubbles are formed. And there is zero guarantee that the current top end prices will hold...and if you're buying a barrel of 2yo bourbon for $2500+, you HAVE to charge a VERY high price to get to break even.

And if you're not in a big distilling house (Brown Forman etc.), good luck moving those bottles.

I am curious.....on the back of a napkin something is odd to me, maybe you can help.

If a barrel yields roughly 200 bottles and the barrel sells for 2500, that's 12.50/bottle to break even...we damned well it will be at least triple that on the shelf. When I see an EC barrel pick going for roughly $70-$90 dollars that tells me that barrel sold for roughly 6k-8K and it is marked up close to double in the store. And a bunch of the bourbon FB Groups groups I subscribe with are doing barrel pics and selling a singlel bottle for ~$80, claiming very little profit to run the FB group trip to Ky....so either the FB groups are gouging people or those barrels are being sold from the distillers for $16-&18k.

[a fan]

Crazy Hedge Fund Legal battle with Wilderrness Trail: https://www.wdrb.com/wdrb-investigates/ ... FzGBdgwNEE

Which I could speak to this, but I know the folks involved, and that wouldn't be proper.

That said....the last few years is the first time that financial speculators have started getting involved in bourbon purchasing. This is a dangerous game, if you ask me. For everyone. This is how bubbles are formed. And there is zero guarantee that the current top end prices will hold...and if you're buying a barrel of 2yo bourbon for $2500+, you HAVE to charge a VERY high price to get to break even.

And if you're not in a big distilling house (Brown Forman etc.), good luck moving those bottles.

I am curious.....on the back of a napkin something is odd to me, maybe you can help.

If a barrel yields roughly 200 bottles and the barrel sells for 2500, that's 12.50/bottle to break even...we damned well it will be at least triple that on the shelf. When I see an EC barrel pick going for roughly $70-$90 dollars that tells me that barrel sold for roughly 6k-8K and it is marked up close to double in the store. And a bunch of the bourbon FB Groups groups I subscribe with are doing barrel pics and selling a singlel bottle for ~$80, claiming very little profit to run the FB group trip to Ky....so either the FB groups are gouging people or those barrels are being sold from the distillers for $16-&18k.

That's because that has a whole mess of cost left out.

That barrel is in KY. Where will it be bottled? So you have to add in shipping, and all the costs for bottling.....cork, labor, liquid losses, bottle, cases, etc.

Then you add in the fact that no one is buying that whiskey at 2yo, unless they have a bonded warehouse where they can age it longer. So that means WIlderness would be charging money to sit on that barrel for years longer. Then there's insurance.

And btw, when you buy barrels, it's "as is"? There is ZERO guarantee there is 200 bottles in it. Barrels leak. Some are totally empty, for example. You have to add that in.

The "barrel picks" that folks buy aren't anywhere close to buying the liquid and the barrel (which is what that $2500 is). They're paying for everything, including the wholesale and retail mark up after all the stuff i mentioned that gets that whiskey in a 6 pack case.

That answer it? I still left stuff out, obviously.

[youthathletics]

Crazy Hedge Fund Legal battle with Wilderrness Trail: https://www.wdrb.com/wdrb-investigates/ ... FzGBdgwNEE

Which I could speak to this, but I know the folks involved, and that wouldn't be proper.

That said....the last few years is the first time that financial speculators have started getting involved in bourbon purchasing. This is a dangerous game, if you ask me. For everyone. This is how bubbles are formed. And there is zero guarantee that the current top end prices will hold...and if you're buying a barrel of 2yo bourbon for $2500+, you HAVE to charge a VERY high price to get to break even.

And if you're not in a big distilling house (Brown Forman etc.), good luck moving those bottles.

I am curious.....on the back of a napkin something is odd to me, maybe you can help.

If a barrel yields roughly 200 bottles and the barrel sells for 2500, that's 12.50/bottle to break even...we damned well it will be at least triple that on the shelf. When I see an EC barrel pick going for roughly $70-$90 dollars that tells me that barrel sold for roughly 6k-8K and it is marked up close to double in the store. And a bunch of the bourbon FB Groups groups I subscribe with are doing barrel pics and selling a singlel bottle for ~$80, claiming very little profit to run the FB group trip to Ky....so either the FB groups are gouging people or those barrels are being sold from the distillers for $16-&18k.

That's because that has a whole mess of cost left out.

That barrel is in KY. Where will it be bottled? So you have to add in shipping, and all the costs for bottling.....cork, labor, liquid losses, bottle, cases, etc.

Then you add in the fact that no one is buying that whiskey at 2yo, unless they have a bonded warehouse where they can age it longer. So that means WIlderness would be charging money to sit on that barrel for years longer. Then there's insurance.

And btw, when you buy barrels, it's "as is"? There is ZERO guarantee there is 200 bottles in it. Barrels leak. Some are totally empty, for example. You have to add that in.

The "barrel picks" that folks buy aren't anywhere close to buying the liquid and the barrel (which is what that $2500 is). They're paying for everything, including the wholesale and retail mark up after all the stuff i mentioned that gets that whiskey in a 6 pack case.

That answer it? I still left stuff out, obviously.

I get it and thank you for the clarity, really. I just would never have thought that the $2500 barrel of 2 y/o juice goes up in price ~6 fold to be placed in ~ 200 bottles to sit on my bar counter.

I'd sit on a bucket with a hand pump and fill 200 bottles with screw caps and sell them to friends for a 6+ fold markup all day.

[HooDat]

I'd sit on a bucket with a hand pump and fill 200 bottles with screw caps and sell them to friends for a 6+ fold markup all day.

which leads to a discussion that could just as easily be on the "Regulation - Too Little or Too Much?" boards.

The distributors have managed to get all sorts of laws in place that make sure lots of palms get greased before you ever see a bottle on your store shelf - all in the name of protecting the consumer.... because otherwise everyone would be getting sold rubbing alcohol

[a fan]

I'd sit on a bucket with a hand pump and fill 200 bottles with screw caps and sell them to friends for a 6+ fold markup all day.

which leads to a discussion that could just as easily be on the "Regulation - Too Little or Too Much?" boards.

The distributors have managed to get all sorts of laws in place that make sure lots of palms get greased before you ever see a bottle on your store shelf - all in the name of protecting the consumer.... because otherwise everyone would be getting sold rubbing alcohol

Yup. Those are the hidden costs that folks new the biz are blindsided with.....and by the time they figure it out, they're in, and its too late.

You basically have to start out with millions to get in, and even then. We got lucky, and that's as simple as it gets.

Seeing Hedge Funds tilting the market for whiskey scares the heck out of me. They DEPEND on bubbles.

[youthathletics]

MGP Ups Its Game and Creates a Brand Portfolio

Posturing with other large distillers to be the Amazon of Whiskey futures?

[youthathletics]

Whiskey Fungus impacts surrounding areas of distillery: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/us/w ... 7-C4g6NMdY

[Bart]

Yup. Those are the hidden costs that folks new the biz are blindsided with.....and by the time they figure it out, they're in, and its too late.

You basically have to start out with millions to get in, and even then. We got lucky, and that's as simple as it gets.

Seeing Hedge Funds tilting the market for whiskey scares the heck out of me. They DEPEND on bubbles.

Tagged you here a Fan cause I hope you will see this and answer this silly little question.

How do you determine the amount of water in a fermentation batch? I am assuming there is a sweet spot between water, dilution of ETOH and other flavors when distillation? Is it trial and error at first and when you get a flavor profile you like you stick with it?

I am not a chemist but I would think that you could always distill down to a certain percentage of ETOH even in dilute beer but in doing so are you going to loose the other flavors?

Thanks

[a fan]

Yup. Those are the hidden costs that folks new the biz are blindsided with.....and by the time they figure it out, they're in, and its too late.

You basically have to start out with millions to get in, and even then. We got lucky, and that's as simple as it gets.

Seeing Hedge Funds tilting the market for whiskey scares the heck out of me. They DEPEND on bubbles.

Tagged you here a Fan cause I hope you will see this and answer this silly little question.

How do you determine the amount of water in a fermentation batch? I am assuming there is a sweet spot between water, dilution of ETOH and other flavors when distillation? Is it trial and error at first and when you get a flavor profile you like you stick with it?

I am not a chemist but I would think that you could always distill down to a certain percentage of ETOH even in dilute beer but in doing so are you going to loose the other flavors?

Thanks

It's a question of pounds of sugar per gallon. And in bourbon production, this means starch. Because when you mash (mix hot water with grains and malted barley), there are enzymes in malt the convert the starch into fermentable sugars.

So there's a table that tells you that I need, for example 1352 lbs of sugars (converted starch) in 1200 gallons of water to get a 13% sugar solution. The yeast will eat that 13% sugar, and make 6% alcohol by volume.

So understanding that, every distillery has different targets. Some are all about yield. So if you make a 10% abv distiller's mash instead of a 5% abv distiller's mash....you just doubled the capacity of your distillation equipment. Make sense? For some, that's important.

For others like me? I think that you get a lower quality whiskey when you do that, because you're asking your yeast to consume an awful lot of sugar in a short period of time. And when you stress yeast out, it gives off higher alcohols------alcohols that are larger than ethanol. These higher alcohols taste and smell unpleasant.

So I make a 6% abv mash, which is quite low. This creates minimal amounts of these higher alcohols, and makes a softer whiskey.

These are VERY broad strokes, and I left a ton of stuff out. But does this answer your question?

[Bart]

Yup. Those are the hidden costs that folks new the biz are blindsided with.....and by the time they figure it out, they're in, and its too late.

You basically have to start out with millions to get in, and even then. We got lucky, and that's as simple as it gets.

Seeing Hedge Funds tilting the market for whiskey scares the heck out of me. They DEPEND on bubbles.

Tagged you here a Fan cause I hope you will see this and answer this silly little question.

How do you determine the amount of water in a fermentation batch? I am assuming there is a sweet spot between water, dilution of ETOH and other flavors when distillation? Is it trial and error at first and when you get a flavor profile you like you stick with it?

I am not a chemist but I would think that you could always distill down to a certain percentage of ETOH even in dilute beer but in doing so are you going to loose the other flavors?

Thanks

It's a question of pounds of sugar per gallon. And in bourbon production, this means starch. Because when you mash (mix hot water with grains and malted barley), there are enzymes in malt the convert the starch into fermentable sugars.

So there's a table that tells you that I need, for example 1352 lbs of sugars (converted starch) in 1200 gallons of water to get a 13% sugar solution. The yeast will eat that 13% sugar, and make 6% alcohol by volume.

So understanding that, every distillery has different targets. Some are all about yield. So if you make a 10% abv distiller's mash instead of a 5% abv distiller's mash....you just doubled the capacity of your distillation equipment. Make sense? For some, that's important.

For others like me? I think that you get a lower quality whiskey when you do that, because you're asking your yeast to consume an awful lot of sugar in a short period of time. And when you stress yeast out, it gives off higher alcohols------alcohols that are larger than ethanol. These higher alcohols taste and smell unpleasant.

So I make a 6% abv mash, which is quite low. This creates minimal amounts of these higher alcohols, and makes a softer whiskey.

These are VERY broad strokes, and I left a ton of stuff out. But does this answer your question?

It certainly does. Thank you.

[youthathletics]

Made it on the high dollar list, afan: https://twitter.com/DerbyCityPhil/statu ... 76072?s=20

[youthathletics]

Sweet Mash: https://distiller.com/articles/sweet-mash-bourbon

[kramerica.inc]

Yup. Those are the hidden costs that folks new the biz are blindsided with.....and by the time they figure it out, they're in, and its too late.

You basically have to start out with millions to get in, and even then. We got lucky, and that's as simple as it gets.

Seeing Hedge Funds tilting the market for whiskey scares the heck out of me. They DEPEND on bubbles.

Tagged you here a Fan cause I hope you will see this and answer this silly little question.

How do you determine the amount of water in a fermentation batch? I am assuming there is a sweet spot between water, dilution of ETOH and other flavors when distillation? Is it trial and error at first and when you get a flavor profile you like you stick with it?

I am not a chemist but I would think that you could always distill down to a certain percentage of ETOH even in dilute beer but in doing so are you going to loose the other flavors?

Thanks

It's a question of pounds of sugar per gallon. And in bourbon production, this means starch. Because when you mash (mix hot water with grains and malted barley), there are enzymes in malt the convert the starch into fermentable sugars.

So there's a table that tells you that I need, for example 1352 lbs of sugars (converted starch) in 1200 gallons of water to get a 13% sugar solution. The yeast will eat that 13% sugar, and make 6% alcohol by volume.

So understanding that, every distillery has different targets. Some are all about yield. So if you make a 10% abv distiller's mash instead of a 5% abv distiller's mash....you just doubled the capacity of your distillation equipment. Make sense? For some, that's important.

For others like me? I think that you get a lower quality whiskey when you do that, because you're asking your yeast to consume an awful lot of sugar in a short period of time. And when you stress yeast out, it gives off higher alcohols------alcohols that are larger than ethanol. These higher alcohols taste and smell unpleasant.

So I make a 6% abv mash, which is quite low. This creates minimal amounts of these higher alcohols, and makes a softer whiskey.

These are VERY broad strokes, and I left a ton of stuff out. But does this answer your question?

Very interesting, thank you.
If you ever retire to need a side hustle, Todd, you should think about giving an online Master's class. Very cool stuff.

[youthathletics]

Master distiller John Lunn dies

https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2023 ... 264p7FrdLQ

[youthathletics]

Congrats to Leopold Brothers: Starting on page 54:

https://issuu.com/artisanspiritmag/docs ... 042_web/54

[RedFromMI]

Congrats to Leopold Brothers: Starting on page 54:

https://issuu.com/artisanspiritmag/docs ... 042_web/54

Great article!

[HooDat]

Congrats to Leopold Brothers: Starting on page 54:

https://issuu.com/artisanspiritmag/docs ... 042_web/54

Great article!

Leopold Bros. have been stepping up their marketing game recently

I have noticed a certain master distiller popping up on social media a lot recently....

[get it to x]

Finally cracked my Leopold Dickel Collab to celebrate our first grandchild. I'm not sure I want my granddaughter to be as spicy a number as the whiskey. Black pepper and baking spice to my palate. A fantastic sipper.

[a fan]

Finally cracked my Leopold Dickel Collab to celebrate our first grandchild. I'm not sure I want my granddaughter to be as spicy a number as the whiskey. Black pepper and baking spice to my palate. A fantastic sipper.

Honored to be part of your special day. Congratulations!!!

Nicole Austin from Dickel did a great job on the blend, didn't she?! Happy to hear you enjoyed it.