Tweak the College Rules

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jersey shore lax
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by jersey shore lax »

My one change to make the game a little better and to reward the riding team would be to only allow a single possession by the goalie in the crease per clear. I hate seeing a goalie pass out of the crease to a teammate, and then a D gets in trouble and he sends it back in the crease to the goalie who now has 4 seconds untouched to find another open teammate. reward the ride.

notentitled
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by notentitled »

No 3 strike rule, immediate penalty- sort of like you are disqualified for a false start in Track. Why give them strikes? Or be even harsher, make the FOGO sticks some uniform model for all.

Cheeseandcrackers
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by Cheeseandcrackers »

I agree rule changes restricting subbing of FOGO is not going to achieve the objective of forcing FOGOs to be more "complete" players. I do think some minor tweaks on the rules surrounding the FO - no passing the ball back to G/D in your own restraining box for example - would create more of a 3v3 between the RLs during which subbing one's FOGO would increase the risk of a turnover.

smoova
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by smoova »

Cheeseandcrackers wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:59 am
I agree rule changes restricting subbing of FOGO is not going to achieve the objective of forcing FOGOs to be more "complete" players.
I'm curious as to why you think this.

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HooDat
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HooDat »

I know its summer, and this stuff is fun to talk about, but the reality is, I wish we would stop tinkering with our sport.

The FOGO thing usually solves itself, every once in a while we get a dominant one. They don't always win NC's.

Wouldn't mind seeing moto grip go away, but that's because I would like the grip to reflect how the player would play the ball.

I haven't looked it up, but is there an exception from withholding for face-offs? Because if not, there is withholding on almost every face off. Call that, and everyone's "issues" go away.
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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DMac
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by DMac »

Yup.
A violation will be called if a player picks up and carries the ball on the back of his stick. It is still legal to clamp the ball with the back of the stick, but it must be moved, raked or directed immediately. Immediately is defined as within one step.
https://thefaceoffacademy.com/faceoff-rulebook/
You just need to follow the rules and the crab dance goes away. When the rule changes went down, I remember "clamp and rake" was the term of the day. We get the clamp but we don't get the rake.

wgdsr
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by wgdsr »

DMac wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:01 pm
Yup.
A violation will be called if a player picks up and carries the ball on the back of his stick. It is still legal to clamp the ball with the back of the stick, but it must be moved, raked or directed immediately. Immediately is defined as within one step.
https://thefaceoffacademy.com/faceoff-rulebook/
You just need to follow the rules and the crab dance goes away. When the rule changes went down, I remember "clamp and rake" was the term of the day. We get the clamp but we don't get the rake.
and if you combine that with the next point, the ball needs to come out in a continuous motion once clamped. and a clamp starts the one step clock. even if it's still on the ground. really, especially because it's still being withheld, or clamped.
however, i can tell you that the vast majority of referees i've run into do not interpret it this way. even though it's written in black and white. they have "interpreted" their own meaning. and they only call the one step when ball is off the ground. entirely against the premise of the rules for withholding the ball.
try convincing them otherwise.

DMac
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by DMac »

I watched lacrosse for several decades before I ever saw my first raised glutes cirlcle dance. The girl's game stays true to the way the ball is to be put in play, the battle begins when the ball is out and into play, and the person who can put it into play in a direction to their advantage has the best shot at coming up with the ball. The ball never stays at the X for 5,6,7,8,9,10 seconds in a skirts circle dance. Not a chance in he!! that should ever happen in lacrosse. The men have phuched it up completely (sticks).

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Dip&Dunk
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by Dip&Dunk »

smoova wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:01 pm
Cheeseandcrackers wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:59 am
I agree rule changes restricting subbing of FOGO is not going to achieve the objective of forcing FOGOs to be more "complete" players.
I'm curious as to why you think this.
I would guess possession of the ball is more important than the marginal (in most cases) ability difference between a FOGO and a regular middie. That being said, I think the sub/no-sub of the FOGO is a non-issue with the shot clock. You are no longer slowing down the overall game by subbing the FOGO like it used to be with no shot clock.

Break break

Lots of people here seem to have access to lots of lax stats. Anyone know if scoring is up since the shot clock was put in place? If so, by how much?

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HowieT3
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HowieT3 »

jersey shore lax wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:11 pm
My one change to make the game a little better and to reward the riding team would be to only allow a single possession by the goalie in the crease per clear. I hate seeing a goalie pass out of the crease to a teammate, and then a D gets in trouble and he sends it back in the crease to the goalie who now has 4 seconds untouched to find another open teammate. reward the ride.
And if he stays in the crease that long, that's 4 less seconds they have to use against the 20-second clearing clock, which is still running.
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HowieT3
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HowieT3 »

notentitled wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:20 pm
No 3 strike rule, immediate penalty- sort of like you are disqualified for a false start in Track. Why give them strikes? Or be even harsher, make the FOGO sticks some uniform model for all.
They're not immediately disqualified for a false start in track. They have a "2-strike rule" that you're DQ'ed after the 2nd false start that's on you.
52 70 72 99 03 06 11 19
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HooDat
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HooDat »

DMac wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:13 pm
raised glutes cirlcle dance
DMac wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:13 pm
a skirts circle dance
hmmmm..... maybe the women's game needs to adopt the men's face-off rules..... :lol: :shock: 8-)
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HooDat
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by HooDat »

HowieT3 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:34 am
jersey shore lax wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:11 pm
My one change to make the game a little better and to reward the riding team would be to only allow a single possession by the goalie in the crease per clear. I hate seeing a goalie pass out of the crease to a teammate, and then a D gets in trouble and he sends it back in the crease to the goalie who now has 4 seconds untouched to find another open teammate. reward the ride.
And if he stays in the crease that long, that's 4 less seconds they have to use against the 20-second clearing clock, which is still running.
exactly
+1
STILL somewhere back in the day....

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smoova
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by smoova »

Dip&Dunk wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:18 am
smoova wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:01 pm
Cheeseandcrackers wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:59 am
I agree rule changes restricting subbing of FOGO is not going to achieve the objective of forcing FOGOs to be more "complete" players.
I'm curious as to why you think this.
I would guess possession of the ball is more important than the marginal (in most cases) ability difference between a FOGO and a regular middie.
I disagree with your estimate of the skill difference between the vast majority of FOGOs and regular middies, but I appreciate you pointing out that coaches likely value possession enough to tolerate the quasi-5v5 situation created by burying both FOGOs on the crease for the first possession after the FO. Something I hadn't considered.

ABV 8.3%
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by ABV 8.3% »

Dip&Dunk wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:18 am
smoova wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:01 pm
Cheeseandcrackers wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:59 am
I agree rule changes restricting subbing of FOGO is not going to achieve the objective of forcing FOGOs to be more "complete" players.
I'm curious as to why you think this.
I would guess possession of the ball is more important than the marginal (in most cases) ability difference between a FOGO and a regular middie. That being said, I think the sub/no-sub of the FOGO is a non-issue with the shot clock. You are no longer slowing down the overall game by subbing the FOGO like it used to be with no shot clock.

Break break

Lots of people here seem to have access to lots of lax stats. Anyone know if scoring is up since the shot clock was put in place? If so, by how much?
The eye test, from the 1/4 finals on, kind of show that the shot clock added to all being great games. Wasn't the main thrust of adding a shot clock to take the game out of the Refs hands? To be consistent ?

Monmouth lost a good FOGO, could THAT be why the team scoring hovered just under 7 goals per game? Lots of factors go into scoring. Starting with coaches philosophy. Like coach with a big lead just content to roll the ball into the corner instead of actually taking a shot.

This isn't a tournament where repeat 8th graders, AA players to boot, are REALLY playing a bunch of 6th graders 2025's and the score is 14 to nothing at the end of the first half and the "paycheck" players get a lil more run. It works out, because 1/2 of the repeat 8th graders REAL team is the 2024 B team and they have a game in a half an hour.
oligarchy thanks you......same as it evah was

DMac
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by DMac »

Dip&Dunk wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:18 am

Lots of people here seem to have access to lots of lax stats. Anyone know if scoring is up since the shot clock was put in place? If so, by how much?
https://lacrossereference.com/2019/05/2 ... hot-clock/

notentitled
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by notentitled »

HowieT3 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:37 am
notentitled wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:20 pm
No 3 strike rule, immediate penalty- sort of like you are disqualified for a false start in Track. Why give them strikes? Or be even harsher, make the FOGO sticks some uniform model for all.
They're not immediately disqualified for a false start in track. They have a "2-strike rule" that you're DQ'ed after the 2nd false start that's on you.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ear ... a97c51ff30 I guess its one.

notentitled
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by notentitled »

The contention is simple. Like a two-shot foul in B-ball, but make the violation significant. Coaches are not going to tolerate going man-down. Oh well, the guys with good people at the face off X will be mad.

Can Opener
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by Can Opener »

A recurring theme to the “Never FOGOers” seems to be that even the dominant faceoff specialists are second tier athletes and/or lacrosse players. I will buy a cold beer for anyone who reads this article and concludes that Trevor Baptiste is not a real lacrosse player. https://theshadowleague.com/trevor-bapt ... se-legend/
Bill Tierney calls him one of the two best lacrosse players he’s ever coached. I also hadn’t realized that Baptiste was a national caliber swimmer in his youth. As many people know, Irelan was #3 in NY his senior year as a 160 pound wrestler, going 46-2 that year and serving as team captain. Like Baptiste, his work ethic is legendary. I think these are the two guys who the Never FOGOers want to rein in. Any coach in America from youth to PLL would love to have athletes and character guys of this quality. Let’s celebrate them, not punish them for achieving excellence.

As for the other recent trope here about stopping the withholding dance at X, the rules are for the most part being enforced there. In those rotating battles, neither player has the clamp yet. That’s why they are still scrapping and corkscrewing for leverage. 99% of the time a ref will call a player for clamping and holding the ball or for placing your head over the head of the guy who’s already won the clamp.

DMac
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Re: Tweak the College Rules

Post by DMac »

Can Opener wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:43 am
A recurring theme to the “Never FOGOers” seems to be that even the dominant faceoff specialists are second tier athletes and/or lacrosse players. I will buy a cold beer for anyone who reads this article and concludes that Trevor Baptiste is not a real lacrosse player. https://theshadowleague.com/trevor-bapt ... se-legend/
Bill Tierney calls him one of the two best lacrosse players he’s ever coached. I also hadn’t realized that Baptiste was a national caliber swimmer in his youth. As many people know, Irelan was #3 in NY his senior year as a 160 pound wrestler, going 46-2 that year and serving as team captain. Like Baptiste, his work ethic is legendary. I think these are the two guys who the Never FOGOers want to rein in. Any coach in America from youth to PLL would love to have athletes and character guys of this quality. Let’s celebrate them, not punish them for achieving excellence.
I'm not so sure anyone has called them second tier athletes, FOGOs (for the most part) are specialists who do pretty much one thing (again, for the most part) and that's what some people seem to have a problem with (I'm not one of them). I doubt there's anyone out there who wouldn't want a Baptise or TD on their team, but for every one of those superior type FOGOs, how many do you have who almost become a liability when they have the ball in their stick and you're holding your breath until they pass it off to someone you have more confidence in to handle the ball? I think most people respect FOGOs for what they do and how much work goes into becoming good at it.
As for the other recent trope here about stopping the withholding dance at X, the rules are for the most part being enforced there. "for the most part" is what the "problem" is. Clamp and rake (direct the ball), that's what's not happening. If it were (enforce the rules) you wouldn't have the dance (no way you should see that on a lacrosse field). In those rotating battles, neither player has the clamp yet. That’s why they are still scrapping and corkscrewing for leverage. If you didn't have sticks that you can bend, twist, and manipulate into an instrument that will pick the ball up like a pair of tongs (never, ever, should happen) that wouldn't be happening. The ball should be out and in play in a fraction of a second after the whistle blows to start action. Look at the girl's game, the whistle blows and the ball is out, look at the highlights of the 76 NC game on the Cornell thread. On the face off the whistle blows and the ball is immidately no longer between the face off guy's (weren't FOGOs) sticks and is in play. The face off isn't the "problem" it's how the sticks can be manipulated (never, ever, should happen) that is the "problem." 99% of the time a ref will call a player for clamping and holding the ball or for placing your head over the head of the guy who’s already won the clamp.
JFTR once again, I don't have a problem with the face off or FOGOs. To say I don't have a problem with the sticks...well, that wouldn't be being truthful. As I've suggested before, stand the two guys up, put the ball between the sticks like the girls do but go to the ground with the ball rather than in the air. That way you can't do with a stick what you shouldn't be able to do, and the ball is immediately in play....no dance, as there shouldn't be.

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