LaxPower Back-Up Stick

xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:39 amI can tell you about a kid who just ended his senior year with a broken collar bone diving into a goalie.

CU77 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:07 pm

xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:39 amI can tell you about a kid who just ended his senior year with a broken collar bone diving into a goalie.

Please do share details (that do not violate anyone's privacy). In particular, is there a video clip of this incident?

While I share all of your concerns, player safety is the most important. Getting word out to the general lax community about injuries that resulted from the new dive rule will be key to any possible change of it.

1.Early recruiting, completely driven by coaches, some more than others, finally resolved by the NCAA.
2. Early Scheduling, Coaches don't like playing mid week games so the games have been scheduled earlier and earlier. Lacrosse has become a winter sport, and it hurts everyone, players, fans, etc.
3. Excessive Rule Changes, The Rules are looked at every two years, by guess who? the Coaches, who then often make changes that will help them achieve their goals. 3 (a)Prime example is Tierny pushing the dive rule out of no where because he felt it cost him a game last year. Reviews on it are mixed, it has made some cool highlight clips on twitter, but I can tell you about a kid who just ended his senior year with a broken collar bone diving into a goalie. I will give them credit on the shot clock, I think it has made the game better.
4. Game time scheduling, why are 90% of all games played at the same time on Saturdays, how about Friday nights, Sundays?
5.The lax bro culture has been an issue for a long time but I can't blame the negative aspects of it on the coaches, but they must be considered a factor.

xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:28 pm

CU77 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:07 pm

xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:39 amI can tell you about a kid who just ended his senior year with a broken collar bone diving into a goalie.

Please do share details (that do not violate anyone's privacy). In particular, is there a video clip of this incident?

While I share all of your concerns, player safety is the most important. Getting word out to the general lax community about injuries that resulted from the new dive rule will be key to any possible change of it.

I really don't want to name the player or the program for several reasons, but he won't be the last one. It was in D3 and wasn't the goalie but rather the attacking player making the dive. Without this rule the kid would still be playing, and we can clearly put these injuries on the rules.

sguy9 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:35 pm

1.Early recruiting, completely driven by coaches, some more than others, finally resolved by the NCAA.
2. Early Scheduling, Coaches don't like playing mid week games so the games have been scheduled earlier and earlier. Lacrosse has become a winter sport, and it hurts everyone, players, fans, etc.
3. Excessive Rule Changes, The Rules are looked at every two years, by guess who? the Coaches, who then often make changes that will help them achieve their goals. 3 (a)Prime example is Tierny pushing the dive rule out of no where because he felt it cost him a game last year. Reviews on it are mixed, it has made some cool highlight clips on twitter, but I can tell you about a kid who just ended his senior year with a broken collar bone diving into a goalie. I will give them credit on the shot clock, I think it has made the game better.
4. Game time scheduling, why are 90% of all games played at the same time on Saturdays, how about Friday nights, Sundays?
5.The lax bro culture has been an issue for a long time but I can't blame the negative aspects of it on the coaches, but they must be considered a factor.

I'll address each of your points because I do not think you are very well informed on how some decisions are made. But I do appreciate that you clearly care about the game, so don't take this as an attack.

I don't see it as an attack and appreciate the feedback, I just like discussion, I'll reply below, thanks

1. Early recruiting - yes was done by Coaches to get he best players. BUT it was driven by families and Club coaches pushing kids to look at schools and commit to coaches earlier. Think back to the early 2000's, if you are a coach that likes a kid and he commits early are you going to tell him "no wait." This started the same time Club programs started kicking in.
Totally disagree, this was 100% driven by the coaches, and some chose not to engage.
2. Early Schedules - Coaches, players, admins, faculty, families, do not want midweek games. Coaches like to practice between games to develop. Players, admins and faculty don't want kids missing classes. Families want to see Jimmy play, much easier on the weekend to get to a game. I guess they could play less games, but does anyone really want that?
Good points here, I guess we will have to live with it. interesting that Philly teams are playing each other this weekend in a round robin format with games on Friday and Sunday, I guess some coaches are willing to play with little practice in between. We will see how this goes.
3. Rule changes - the NCAA requires the committee to look at the rules of every sport every 2 years. The committee is made up of coaches and admins, they seek input from all coaches to guide the conversation of changes/adjustments.
Fair enough
3 a. Tierney pushed this because he lost so the committee changed the rule? Come on man. The topic of the dive has been discussed every year since it was removed. The last few years there has been more of a push for it because some feel it is an exciting part of the game. I am not sure where I stand on this, but don't blame Coach Tierney. And yes, shot clock is a very good step in the right direction.
Shot clock is great, I was not at the meetings but have heard Tierney was the main driver behind the dive, I have been wrong before. The dive is a problem, and the refs have no idea how to call it. A D1 ref told me last week they had an hour long conf call about it and said he is more confused now than he was before the call. I don't see it being around for long.
4. Game times - Warmer in the day time. Sometimes dictated by TV, sometimes by Women's schedule, sometimes a school decides based on when they can get game workers. I agree, non-traditional times would be good, opportunity to get better officials, maybe be a prime time game, etc...
Would selfishly like to see games at other time like you.
5. How are coaches a factor in the "laxbro" culture? These "bros" went that route long before they got to college. I think most if the issue is that people keep saying it is an issue. If you don't perpetuate the issue will it be an issue?

xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:54 pm

sguy9 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:35 pm

1.Early recruiting, completely driven by coaches, some more than others, finally resolved by the NCAA.
2. Early Scheduling, Coaches don't like playing mid week games so the games have been scheduled earlier and earlier. Lacrosse has become a winter sport, and it hurts everyone, players, fans, etc.
3. Excessive Rule Changes, The Rules are looked at every two years, by guess who? the Coaches, who then often make changes that will help them achieve their goals. 3 (a)Prime example is Tierny pushing the dive rule out of no where because he felt it cost him a game last year. Reviews on it are mixed, it has made some cool highlight clips on twitter, but I can tell you about a kid who just ended his senior year with a broken collar bone diving into a goalie. I will give them credit on the shot clock, I think it has made the game better.
4. Game time scheduling, why are 90% of all games played at the same time on Saturdays, how about Friday nights, Sundays?
5.The lax bro culture has been an issue for a long time but I can't blame the negative aspects of it on the coaches, but they must be considered a factor.

I'll address each of your points because I do not think you are very well informed on how some decisions are made. But I do appreciate that you clearly care about the game, so don't take this as an attack.

I don't see it as an attack and appreciate the feedback, I just like discussion, I'll reply below, thanks

1. Early recruiting - yes was done by Coaches to get he best players. BUT it was driven by families and Club coaches pushing kids to look at schools and commit to coaches earlier. Think back to the early 2000's, if you are a coach that likes a kid and he commits early are you going to tell him "no wait." This started the same time Club programs started kicking in.
Totally disagree, this was 100% driven by the coaches, and some chose not to engage.
i'm with xxxx here. the coaches are the customer and put this on themselves. who cares what parents or club coaches have to say? and if the whole setup had blue chip teams taking their entire class freshman year, that was more eventually good players for me to scap up if i'm not a blue chip school, or enable me to poach with better judgment if i am.
2. Early Schedules - Coaches, players, admins, faculty, families, do not want midweek games. Coaches like to practice between games to develop. Players, admins and faculty don't want kids missing classes. Families want to see Jimmy play, much easier on the weekend to get to a game. I guess they could play less games, but does anyone really want that?
Good points here, I guess we will have to live with it. interesting that Philly teams are playing each other this weekend in a round robin format with games on Friday and Sunday, I guess some coaches are willing to play with little practice in between. We will see how this goes.
don't agree at all, sguy. baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, badminton, tennis, softball... everybody's playing mid-week games. ad nauseum. what makes lacrosse so special that playing in sub-freezing temperatures or on non-regulation indoor facilities is trumped? the attendance gate on weekends? you got it right with the first explanation -- coaches like to gameplan. gotta have a gameplan.
3. Rule changes - the NCAA requires the committee to look at the rules of every sport every 2 years. The committee is made up of coaches and admins, they seek input from all coaches to guide the conversation of changes/adjustments.
Fair enough
i follow a lot of sports, and i don't know of any that over the decades have tinkered and gone under so many changes, every 2 years, as lacrosse. it's like they felt like they always had to do something or they would be failures. that is, until the last 3, 4, 5 years. now football and basketball are in on the act. so it's over. just have to get used to new rules every 2 years until the end of time.
3 a. Tierney pushed this because he lost so the committee changed the rule? Come on man. The topic of the dive has been discussed every year since it was removed. The last few years there has been more of a push for it because some feel it is an exciting part of the game. I am not sure where I stand on this, but don't blame Coach Tierney. And yes, shot clock is a very good step in the right direction.
Shot clock is great, I was not at the meetings but have heard Tierney was the main driver behind the dive, I have been wrong before. The dive is a problem, and the refs have no idea how to call it. A D1 ref told me last week they had an hour long conf call about it and said he is more confused now than he was before the call. I don't see it being around for long.
from what i understand, if tierney wasn't pushing this, it would've gathered no more momentum than it had in the past. that doesn't mean everyone else didn't sign off on it, because of course they did.
4. Game times - Warmer in the day time. Sometimes dictated by TV, sometimes by Women's schedule, sometimes a school decides based on when they can get game workers. I agree, non-traditional times would be good, opportunity to get better officials, maybe be a prime time game, etc...
Would selfishly like to see games at other time like you.
i believe this has a great deal more to do with coaches wanting their full work weeks every week than anything else (very few games are actually on broadcast networks, even in relation to the small universe of lacrosse)... but, you can usually nowadays get to a quickly archived version of the game if there's another you wanted to watch first at the same time. they should play several more on sundays, imo, but that's just me being selfish.
5. How are coaches a factor in the "laxbro" culture? These "bros" went that route long before they got to college. I think most if the issue is that people keep saying it is an issue. If you don't perpetuate the issue will it be an issue?
Coaches are 100% responsible for the culture of a program and I think there are many who are doing a great job in this regard, and this is the least of my worries. Thanks
nm

wgdsr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:12 pm

xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:54 pm

sguy9 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:35 pm

1.Early recruiting, completely driven by coaches, some more than others, finally resolved by the NCAA.
2. Early Scheduling, Coaches don't like playing mid week games so the games have been scheduled earlier and earlier. Lacrosse has become a winter sport, and it hurts everyone, players, fans, etc.
3. Excessive Rule Changes, The Rules are looked at every two years, by guess who? the Coaches, who then often make changes that will help them achieve their goals. 3 (a)Prime example is Tierny pushing the dive rule out of no where because he felt it cost him a game last year. Reviews on it are mixed, it has made some cool highlight clips on twitter, but I can tell you about a kid who just ended his senior year with a broken collar bone diving into a goalie. I will give them credit on the shot clock, I think it has made the game better.
4. Game time scheduling, why are 90% of all games played at the same time on Saturdays, how about Friday nights, Sundays?
5.The lax bro culture has been an issue for a long time but I can't blame the negative aspects of it on the coaches, but they must be considered a factor.

I'll address each of your points because I do not think you are very well informed on how some decisions are made. But I do appreciate that you clearly care about the game, so don't take this as an attack.

I don't see it as an attack and appreciate the feedback, I just like discussion, I'll reply below, thanks

1. Early recruiting - yes was done by Coaches to get he best players. BUT it was driven by families and Club coaches pushing kids to look at schools and commit to coaches earlier. Think back to the early 2000's, if you are a coach that likes a kid and he commits early are you going to tell him "no wait." This started the same time Club programs started kicking in.
Totally disagree, this was 100% driven by the coaches, and some chose not to engage.
i'm with xxxx here. the coaches are the customer and put this on themselves. who cares what parents or club coaches have to say? and if the whole setup had blue chip teams taking their entire class freshman year, that was more eventually good players for me to scap up if i'm not a blue chip school, or enable me to poach with better judgment if i am.

Obviously there was a mutuality of interests that drove ER, basically an unregulated market, a 'tragedy of the commons' with no regard for externalities. But yeah, the coaches had the power to institute rules to prevent ER and the leading luminaries of the sport did not step up; instead they typically looked at ER as advantageous to their specific program. This is where the problem of the coaches' influence on setting the rules comes into play. The externalities, the cost to the sport overall, were in conflict with their personal self interest, at least as they understood it at the time. The thing that ticked me of was the mealy-mouthed decrying of Er by some of these guys at the same time they were doubling down for their program, going ever earlier.

Credit to the women's coaches who stepped up for the good of the sport overall.

2. Early Schedules - Coaches, players, admins, faculty, families, do not want midweek games. Coaches like to practice between games to develop. Players, admins and faculty don't want kids missing classes. Families want to see Jimmy play, much easier on the weekend to get to a game. I guess they could play less games, but does anyone really want that?

Yes, I'd much prefer fewer games than games in January and February. It's ridiculous.
Want more games? Schedule teams close to home mid-week. Only travel for weekends and spring break.
Families don't like mid-week games? I sure bet they prefer those than freezing their butts of in February games. With all the increased injury risk.
Coaches like to practice? Get over it, guys. Or play fewer games.

Good points here, I guess we will have to live with it. interesting that Philly teams are playing each other this weekend in a round robin format with games on Friday and Sunday, I guess some coaches are willing to play with little practice in between. We will see how this goes.
don't agree at all, sguy. baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, badminton, tennis, softball... everybody's playing mid-week games. ad nauseum. what makes lacrosse so special that playing in sub-freezing temperatures or on non-regulation indoor facilities is trumped? the attendance gate on weekends? you got it right with the first explanation -- coaches like to gameplan. gotta have a gameplan.

Right.

3. Rule changes - the NCAA requires the committee to look at the rules of every sport every 2 years. The committee is made up of coaches and admins, they seek input from all coaches to guide the conversation of changes/adjustments.
Fair enough
i follow a lot of sports, and i don't know of any that over the decades have tinkered and gone under so many changes, every 2 years, as lacrosse. it's like they felt like they always had to do something or they would be failures. that is, until the last 3, 4, 5 years. now football and basketball are in on the act. so it's over. just have to get used to new rules every 2 years until the end of time.
3 a. Tierney pushed this because he lost so the committee changed the rule? Come on man. The topic of the dive has been discussed every year since it was removed. The last few years there has been more of a push for it because some feel it is an exciting part of the game. I am not sure where I stand on this, but don't blame Coach Tierney. And yes, shot clock is a very good step in the right direction.
Shot clock is great, I was not at the meetings but have heard Tierney was the main driver behind the dive, I have been wrong before. The dive is a problem, and the refs have no idea how to call it. A D1 ref told me last week they had an hour long conf call about it and said he is more confused now than he was before the call. I don't see it being around for long.
from what i understand, if tierney wasn't pushing this, it would've gathered no more momentum than it had in the past. that doesn't mean everyone else didn't sign off on it, because of course they did.

That's my understanding as well, Tierney pushing was a key factor. Needs to be reversed ASAP.

4. Game times - Warmer in the day time. Sometimes dictated by TV, sometimes by Women's schedule, sometimes a school decides based on when they can get game workers. I agree, non-traditional times would be good, opportunity to get better officials, maybe be a prime time game, etc...
Would selfishly like to see games at other time like you.
i believe this has a great deal more to do with coaches wanting their full work weeks every week than anything else (very few games are actually on broadcast networks, even in relation to the small universe of lacrosse)... but, you can usually nowadays get to a quickly archived version of the game if there's another you wanted to watch first at the same time. they should play several more on sundays, imo, but that's just me being selfish.

I don't have a strong opinion on this, other than that day time is a heck of a lot better in Jan, Feb, March. After that, night games are not an issue. But start with getting rid of Jan and Feb games altogether.

5. How are coaches a factor in the "laxbro" culture? These "bros" went that route long before they got to college. I think most if the issue is that people keep saying it is an issue. If you don't perpetuate the issue will it be an issue?
Coaches are 100% responsible for the culture of a program and I think there are many who are doing a great job in this regard, and this is the least of my worries. Thanks
nm

stupefied wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:46 am Yo NCAA , Get the goddamn crease dive out of the amateur game

OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 pm Early Recruiting This was not driven by the coaches alone. There were a number of factors, It is true that parents were telling a coach they needed an yes or they would look elsewhere. Coaches would tell parents they had 48/72 hours to decide. It was not all all one way or the other. There is a classic example of the former where a recruit(s) toured schools saying they would commit IF they got full scholarships or they would move on. Presented to several top tier schools.

Anyone thinking Bill T was able to implement a rule change just because he wanted one needs to revisit the issue. Rule changes are widely discusses among the profession before votes are ever taken.

Coaches can't compete in other capacities I think is not credible. Imagine your physician trying to compete in other professions. I know some of the worlds best. Some could do it some think they are God and would never be able to adapt to another milieu.

In the event all strands are interwoven at the macro level though each may play out differently at the micro level

OCanada wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:03 am We called our daughter yesterday to assume her we did not pay 500k or bribe Mandy so she could play lacrosse at Yale when they last played in the NCAA tourney,