My house is blissfully quiet, but my ears are still ringing.
The first presidential debate of 2020 was unlike anything we have seen before. CNN’s Jake Tapper said: "That was a hot mess, inside a dumpster fire, inside a train wreck." "He was his own tweets come to life." “We’ll talk about who won the debate, who lost the debate ... One thing for sure, the American people lost.” Conservative pundit William Kristol called it “a spectacle… an embarrassment… a disgrace… because of the behavior of one man, Donald Trump. The interrupting and the bullying, the absence of both decency and dignity—those were Donald Trump’s distinctive contributions to the evening, and they gave the affair the rare and sickening character of a national humiliation.”
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
In a normal presidential debate, both candidates try to explain their policy proposals, jab at their opponent, and convince undecided voters to move in their direction. If this had been a normal presidential debate, its weight would have fallen on Trump, who is significantly behind Biden, to win voters. Biden’s goal would simply have been not to lose anyone.
If we were calling this like a normal presidential debate, Trump lost. He did not move the needle in his direction. Biden won; he did not lose anyone.
But this was not a normal presidential debate.
Trump long ago gave up the pretense that he wanted to win a majority of voters. For months now, he has made no effort to reach outside of his base. Instead he has focused on solidifying and radicalizing it. As his trade war with China and the coronavirus has weakened his support, he has given massive grants to farmers, promised checks to 33 million elderly to help pay for prescriptions, splashed transportation grants around, and recently even offered grants to lobstermen who have lost business because of the trade war.
Trump set out tonight not to convince undecided voters to support him, but rather to harden his supporters and encourage them to disrupt the election so he can contest the results until the solution goes to the Supreme Court where he hopes a majority will rule in his favor. He laid it all out tonight.
His performance was no accident. He came out determined to dominate the debate in much the same way as Fox News Channel personalities or talk radio hosts dominate their shows. He interrupted, argued, lied, and generally sucked the oxygen out of the room. He cheated, refusing to follow the rules that he had agreed to, thus demonstrating that he would not be bound by the rules everyone else had to live by. He bullied moderator Chris Wallace of the Fox News Channel into repeatedly appeasing him by saying, for example, “Mr. President you’re going to be very happy, because we’re going to talk about law and order,” and “Let me ask — sir, you’ll be happy, I’m about to pick up on one of your points to ask the vice president.” Trump was attempting to demonstrate his dominance.
He went on to echo the grievances and lies that his supporters have come to believe. Ignoring the more than 200,000 Americans dead of Covid-19, he insisted he was the victim of Democrats’ lies about the disease. When Wallace tried to rein him in, he attacked him for being unfair, although Wallace never once fact-checked Trump’s lies.
If Trump had a strategy at all that involved voters, it was to try to keep them from backing Biden. Trump kept yelling at him about “Law & Order,” as he likes to tweet, and kept trying to drive a wedge between Biden and the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party, finally saying to him: “You just lost the left.”
Trump tipped his hand, though, when Wallace asked: "Are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down?” Trump demanded names of such groups, and Wallace named, among others, the Proud Boys, the hate group that helped to organize the riot in Charlottesville, Virginia. After hedging, Trump finally answered: "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by! But I'll tell you what, somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left." "That's my president," the head of the Proud Boys posted on the social media chair that will still host them. Within an hour the group had new shoulder patches designed with the words “Stand Back and Stand By.”
Trump called for his supporters to act as poll watchers to prevent a fraudulent vote. He is losing badly in Pennsylvania, a state he needs, and tonight he lied that Philadelphia election officials refused to permit his poll watchers to observe voting. “Bad things happen in Philadelphia,” he said, “bad things.” The truth is that seven satellite offices where voters can register and apply to vote, complete, and drop off mail in ballots opened in Philadelphia. Poll watchers are not allowed because there is no polling taking place. Trump’s calls for poll watchers are pretty clearly calls for voter intimidation.
Tonight, again, Trump refused to commit to accepting a Biden victory, saying that he could not agree to fraudulent results. He suggested the election could take months to solve, and that he “definitely” wants the Supreme Court, including his new nominee Amy Coney Barrett, to “look at the ballots.” (Democrats have said Barrett should recuse herself from any election-related cases; Republicans say that is “absurd.”)
It was a performance designed to show a strong man who is calling out his armed supporters to enable him to seize an election he cannot win freely.
But Trump performed as he did because it’s all he’s got. He has no policies, no platform, no plans that he can sell to the American people, and no attention span either to govern or to explain how he wants to govern. So his only option is to dominate. Even he knows that ploy is a desperate one. Tonight’s tell was actually in his dominance play itself: overt bullying like he displayed tonight is actually a sign of weakness and abuse, not of true power.
The bar for Biden going into this debate was low: since he is so far ahead, he simply needed not to lose votes. But he did well. First of all, he managed to retain his train of thought, which was no easy thing with Trump interrupting and lying and yelling, clearly trying to derail him and, at the very least, bring out his stutter. He put to rest Trump’s insistence that he is failing mentally.
Despite Trump, Biden also managed to explain some of his policies, too, as well as pointing out that more than 200,000 Americans have died on Trump’s watch, and that he has done the economy no favors. Under Trump, he said, America has become “weaker, sicker, poorer, more divided and more violent.”
But Biden’s strongest moments were ones Trump teed up. When Biden defended our troops from Trump’s “losers” and “suckers” comments, citing his son, Beau, who died of cancer after his service in Iraq, Trump missed the opportunity to acknowledge Biden’s loss, and instead repeatedly attacked Biden’s son Hunter, who struggled with substance abuse. Trump insisted—incorrectly—that Hunter was dishonorably discharged from the Navy (in fact, he was administratively discharged), and tried to smear him. Biden looked directly at Trump to say that Hunter had a drug addiction he is managing, and Biden is proud of him. While Biden spoke as a father defending his son, his message will resonate with the 20 million Americans who are battling addiction.
Most important, though, Biden made the debate about the country and the American people, not about Trump. While Trump listed his own grievances, Biden spoke to the camera, asking Americans what they needed, what they think. He promised that we can accomplish anything if only we work together. He urged people to ignore the chaos and vote. “Vote whatever way is the best way for you,” he said. “Because he will not be able to stop you from determining the outcome of this election.”
Biden also refused to be scared off by Trump’s threats not to honor the election results. He brushed them off, saying “I will accept it, and he will, too. You know why? Because once the winner is declared once all the ballots are counted, that’ll be the end of it.”
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am Mr moderator, deactivate my account. You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy. This is cradle and shoot signing out.
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:11 am
We don't need a bs count to know that. But the left is so obsessed with hating him.
And the right just SWOONED with lover for Obama.
And I"m sure if Biden wins, Right Wing Media will just ADORE him.
And Kram, for heaven's sake, Trump is to the left of me. Let alone actual conservatives. Stop acting like this is a left-right thing.
So you were cool with the right wing media's treatment of Obama? And the left's treatment of Trump?
My issue is that the TDS has reached new levels of hate and bled into the mainstream.
During his term, you used to be able to find even handed stories and positive stuff about Obama from reputable sources. I think anyone that wrote something positive about Trump would likely be run out of their newsroom due to reader backlash.
Trump could save a kid from drowning, and the left would complain that he wasn't wearing a swim cap.
You and I both know it's all about the little r.
But as a challenge- I dare you or anyone else to find ANYTHING even remotely even handed let alone postivie, that's been written about trump in the msm. Ready, go!
"...Proud Boys and leaders regularly spout white nationalist memes and maintain affiliations with known extremists. They are known for anti-Muslim and misogynistic rhetoric. Proud Boys have appeared alongside other hate groups at extremist gatherings like the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville. Indeed, former Proud Boys member Jason Kessler helped to organize the event, which brought together Klansmen, antisemites, Southern racists, and militias."
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am Mr moderator, deactivate my account. You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy. This is cradle and shoot signing out.
The sheriff of Multnomah County, Ore., which includes Portland, quickly refuted President Trump’s claim of an endorsement during Tuesday night's first general election presidential debate.
“As the Multnomah County Sheriff I have never supported Donald Trump and will never support him,” Sheriff Mike Reese responded on Twitter Tuesday night.
The sheriff added: “Donald Trump has made my job a hell of a lot harder since he started talking about Portland, but I never thought he'd try to turn my wife against me!”
Why do the rabid IMOPTUS o d supporters NOT see his lies, or do they just not care; as he esposes their racist belief?
I would think that having someone lie about a representiative of Law & Order would upset a rational mind??
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am Mr moderator, deactivate my account. You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy. This is cradle and shoot signing out.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:20 am
No proposed tax rate ever goes DOWN until the taxpayer has been fleeced by ever-higher taxes, and we eventually revolt.
Our effective Federal income tax rate is half----half----of what it was when Clinton was in office, Pete. And that was BEFORE the latest Trump tax cuts.
Wake up.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:20 am
America started with a 1% tax rate only on the highest earning Americans....look at us now.
So shut down all the socialist institutions like the University of Florida. And shut down all those Florida Hospitals that take MY MONEY and give it to the elderly.
Any time you want to put your money where your mouth is, Pete? Let me know.
Of course, you want the U of Florida closed AFTER you've fleeced your fellow taxpayers because you didn't feel like studying in HS, and attending a private University.
You're all the same. You want your free government *hit, but you're outraged that someone makes you pay for it. So what do you do? Cheer as Trump Borrows Trillions, gives billions to U Florida so it can add new buildings and have a government football team.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:20 am
At best, taxation inhibits the natural growth of an economy; at worst, taxation causes economies to seize up.
Hypocrite. The biggest hypocrite on the board.
Put me in charge Pete. I'd sell every Federal and State park. Sell every municipal owned green space. Shut down every single Public University, High School. Sell every single Government owned Airport (whoops) to the highest bidder, and let them set market rates. Then I'd go after Medicare, and let all those Florida senior citizens pay market rates for health care. What's that you say? 70% of the hospitals would shut down because the average senior citizen can't possibly pay market rates for health care? Oh well! At least they're free from that mean ol' government, am-i-right?
Gee, i wonder what those huggie-bear, humans-first health insurance companies would charge people in their 70s for care? Where do I sign for that....so I can watch all those supposedly self sufficient Americans choose either pills and doctors that keep them alive, or a roof over their heads?
You and all of TrumpLand are the biggest bunch of hypocrites the world has ever seen. You're worse than far left liberals, and that's saying something.
You want all your toys and ice cream cones from mommy, but you don't want to pay for it like a big boy. So you pout that mommy isn't being fair for asking you to get a job, and pay for the cr*p you get.
What a bunch of crybabies. Waaaaah! But Mommy, I don't WANT to pay for the stuff I get from the government!!!!
And Trump....the biggest spoiled brat the world has ever seen.....feels your pain, Pete. So he borrows Trillions of dollars, and gives you not just ice cream, but a Lolly, too. And makes your grandkids pick up the tab.
Grow up, my man. This is not a good look for a grown up.
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:11 am
We don't need a bs count to know that. But the left is so obsessed with hating him.
And the right just SWOONED with lover for Obama.
And I"m sure if Biden wins, Right Wing Media will just ADORE him.
And Kram, for heaven's sake, Trump is to the left of me. Let alone actual conservatives. Stop acting like this is a left-right thing.
So you were cool with the right wing media's treatment of Obama? And the left's treatment of Trump?
My issue is that the TDS has reached new levels of hate and bled into the mainstream.
During his term, you used to be able to find even handed stories and positive stuff about Obama from reputable sources. I think anyone that wrote something positive about Trump would likely be run out of their newsroom due to reader backlash.
Trump could save a kid from drowning, and the left would complain that he wasn't wearing a swim cap.
You and I both know it's all about the little r.
But as a challenge- I dare you or anyone else to find ANYTHING even remotely even handed let alone postivie, that's been written about trump in the msm. Ready, go!
To your point.....doubt the hate towards Obama ventured into the "we will cheer if he gets assasinated" territory , like so many think regarding the current POTUSA
wrong is wrong, what has tRump done to this country that warrants this sick kind of mindset? Since when is being a a-hole grounds for murder?
Harvey Weinstein would have been offed decades ago, if the case. But, he donated to certain "types" so....all is good For that matter, same for tRump. His donations were welcome, welcome welcome. Also for decades.
and you people are principled? I think not
ILM...Independent Lives Matter
Pronouns: "we" and "suck"
HOUSTON – There’s simply no proof that allowing people to vote by mail in Harris County will result in fraud – that’s what states like California are currently telling the Texas Supreme Court.
But according to two private investigators, massive fraudulent ballot harvesting is already transpiring in Harris County -- a scheme being coordinated in part by Joe Biden’s Texas political director, Dallas Jones.
Affidavits signed by retired HPD Captain Mark Aguirre and former FBI agent Charles Marler on Sept. 27, assert four individuals are orchestrating voter fraud on a massive scale.
Those individuals, according to Aguirre and Marler, are Jones, who was brought in to oversee the Biden campaign’s Harris County initiative, State Sen. Borris Miles, Gerald Womack and Harris County Commissioner Rodney Ellis.
In his affidavit, Aguirre states the men are using AB Canvassing as a front for their operation, an operation that is being run by the “elite politicians” of the Democratic Party in Harris County.
"I have m my possession video-taped interviews of witnesses attesting to the aforementioned people having groups of people completing thousands of absentee and mail-in ballots, including completing ballots for deceased individuals; illegally going into nursing homes, with the complicity of the nursing home staff, and filling out and forging the signatures of nursing home residents; signing up homeless individuals to vote using the ballot harvester's address then completing the ballot and forging the homeless individual's signature,” states Aguirre’s affidavit.
Trump tipped his hand, though, when Wallace asked: "Are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down?” Trump demanded names of such groups, and Wallace named, among others, the Proud Boys, the hate group that helped to organize the riot in Charlottesville, Virginia. After hedging, Trump finally answered: "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by! But I'll tell you what, somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left." "That's my president," the head of the Proud Boys posted on the social media chair that will still host them. Within an hour the group had new shoulder patches designed with the words “Stand Back and Stand By.”
6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:41 am
So Chris Wallace is a journalist?
Per the NYT own story, Trump actually paid to the US Treasury $1 million in 2016 and $4.2 million in 2017.
Read that closely. Trump PAID, as in transferred to the US Treasury, $1 million in 2016 and $4.2 million in 2017. Note also that most of the overpayment was rolled forward, not refunded. The $750 figure is an ADDITIONAL $750. Thus every single story saying he paid $750 is a lie.
Why did this topic even come up if not to embarrass Trump.
If this version is correct (and I haven’t seen anything supporting it), it says to me that Trump paid those amounts in estimated taxes, but that his actual tax liability for those years was only $750. He applied the excess against the following year’s tax liability.
So the bottom line in the story is true: Trump only paid $750 in federal income taxes during those years.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:20 am
No proposed tax rate ever goes DOWN until the taxpayer has been fleeced by ever-higher taxes, and we eventually revolt.
Our effective Federal income tax rate is half----half----of what it was when Clinton was in office, Pete. And that was BEFORE the latest Trump tax cuts.
Wake up.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:20 am
America started with a 1% tax rate only on the highest earning Americans....look at us now.
So shut down all the socialist institutions like the University of Florida. And shut down all those Florida Hospitals that take MY MONEY and give it to the elderly.
Any time you want to put your money where your mouth is, Pete? Let me know.
Of course, you want the U of Florida closed AFTER you've fleeced your fellow taxpayers because you didn't feel like studying in HS, and attending a private University.
You're all the same. You want your free government *hit, but you're outraged that someone makes you pay for it. So what do you do? Cheer as Trump Borrows Trillions, gives billions to U Florida so it can add new buildings and have a government football team.
Peter Brown wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:20 am
At best, taxation inhibits the natural growth of an economy; at worst, taxation causes economies to seize up.
Hypocrite. The biggest hypocrite on the board.
Put me in charge Pete. I'd sell every Federal and State park. Sell every municipal owned green space. Shut down every single Public University, High School. Sell every single Government owned Airport (whoops) to the highest bidder, and let them set market rates. Then I'd go after Medicare, and let all those Florida senior citizens pay market rates for health care. What's that you say? 70% of the hospitals would shut down because the average senior citizen can't possibly pay market rates for health care? Oh well! At least they're free from that mean ol' government, am-i-right?
Gee, i wonder what those huggie-bear, humans-first health insurance companies would charge people in their 70s for care? Where do I sign for that....so I can watch all those supposedly self sufficient Americans choose either pills and doctors that keep them alive, or a roof over their heads?
You and all of TrumpLand are the biggest bunch of hypocrites the world has ever seen. You're worse than far left liberals, and that's saying something.
You want all your toys and ice cream cones from mommy, but you don't want to pay for it like a big boy. So you pout that mommy isn't being fair for asking you to get a job, and pay for the cr*p you get.
What a bunch of crybabies. Waaaaah! But Mommy, I don't WANT to pay for the stuff I get from the government!!!!
And Trump....the biggest spoiled brat the world has ever seen.....feels your pain, Pete. So he borrows Trillions of dollars, and gives you not just ice cream, but a Lolly, too. And makes your grandkids pick up the tab.
Grow up, my man. This is not a good look for a grown up.
your rants are tiring.....especially the "didn't study in HS" narrative.. It's as if you are from Baltimore, where all that matters is what you did in HS. Lots of reasons why people don't do well in HIGH school. Lots. How did Christoper Langan , grade wize, in HIGH school ?
Same for your lack of support of politicians, or ideas, that even you agree with. Why you engage, constantly, with Pete Brown is beyond us. We all have friends that, if boxed in, will finally concede : public /private partnerships are vital for a thriving economy. Even Petey has said as much.
So, why do you engage with him? Let it go. Offer solutions. beyond the consumption tax. (oh, btw, like MY issues, NO ONE CARES about your idea, just saving your from wasting your time
ILM...Independent Lives Matter
Pronouns: "we" and "suck"
6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:41 am
So Chris Wallace is a journalist?
Per the NYT own story, Trump actually paid to the US Treasury $1 million in 2016 and $4.2 million in 2017.
Read that closely. Trump PAID, as in transferred to the US Treasury, $1 million in 2016 and $4.2 million in 2017. Note also that most of the overpayment was rolled forward, not refunded. The $750 figure is an ADDITIONAL $750. Thus every single story saying he paid $750 is a lie.
Why did this topic even come up if not to embarrass Trump.
If this version is correct (and I haven’t seen anything supporting it), it says to me that Trump paid those amounts in estimated taxes, but that his actual tax liability for those years was only $750. He applied the excess against the following year’s tax liability.
So the bottom line in the story is true: Trump only paid $750 in federal income taxes during those years.
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:11 am
We don't need a bs count to know that. But the left is so obsessed with hating him.
And the right just SWOONED with lover for Obama.
And I"m sure if Biden wins, Right Wing Media will just ADORE him.
And Kram, for heaven's sake, Trump is to the left of me. Let alone actual conservatives. Stop acting like this is a left-right thing.
So you were cool with the right wing media's treatment of Obama? And the left's treatment of Trump?
My issue is that the TDS has reached new levels of hate and bled into the mainstream.
During his term, you used to be able to find even handed stories and positive stuff about Obama from reputable sources. I think anyone that wrote something positive about Trump would likely be run out of their newsroom due to reader backlash.
Trump could save a kid from drowning, and the left would complain that he wasn't wearing a swim cap.
You and I both know it's all about the little r.
But as a challenge- I dare you or anyone else to find ANYTHING even remotely even handed let alone postivie, that's been written about trump in the msm. Ready, go!
Don't disagree with this message but do disagree with the little r part. It's not about that (of course, with some hard core Ds it is) it's about what a huge rude, crude, condescending, arrogant, self centered aszwhole he is. He's easy to not like and criticize, brings it all on himself. As an example (of which there are zillions), I don't care what anybody thought about McCain, no decent person would say about his POW days what this POS of a POTUS said, to say nothing of what he says about the guy's wife. Pretty sad case when so many of his supporters openly admit that he's unfit for office...I don't like this low life scummbahg as my Prez.
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:34 amSo Biden calling Trump a clown and telling him to shut up, (but doing it in his hushed quiet voice) was the better, higher road?
I mentioned TDS in the past but didn't believe it as much until I''ve seen the response to this deabte. The over the top dislike for Trump makes so many Americans ignore the other shltty and embarrassing choice the dems are wheeling out.
No thanks. It will be a write-in for me. Again.
Biden was saying what we were all thinking.
You complaining about Biden saying two things here is completely disingenuous, and we see it all the time here. Trump says worse things on an hour by hour basis for 5+ years, yet when Biden trots out two lines against an elementary school bully you suddenly get the vapors.
Such a load of horse hockey, and we're not buying it. But enjoy your right to write-in!
Also, someone kept count. Trump interrupted the debate 359 times. Biden was at 73 times (mostly interrupting interruptions). To Trumpists, that means TAATS.
strange... MSN claims that Trump interupted 128 times. (no count for Biden tho
That is a two hundred and thirty count difference for what you claimed
6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:41 am
So Chris Wallace is a journalist?
Per the NYT own story, Trump actually paid to the US Treasury $1 million in 2016 and $4.2 million in 2017.
Read that closely. Trump PAID, as in transferred to the US Treasury, $1 million in 2016 and $4.2 million in 2017. Note also that most of the overpayment was rolled forward, not refunded. The $750 figure is an ADDITIONAL $750. Thus every single story saying he paid $750 is a lie.
Why did this topic even come up if not to embarrass Trump.
If this version is correct (and I haven’t seen anything supporting it), it says to me that Trump paid those amounts in estimated taxes, but that his actual tax liability for those years was only $750. He applied the excess against the following year’s tax liability.
So the bottom line in the story is true: Trump only paid $750 in federal income taxes during those years.
Trump Paid $750 in Federal Income Taxes in 2017. Here’s the Math.
"Figures drawn from President Trump’s tax-return data show how that number was calculated.
The small amount of federal income taxes President Trump paid in both 2016 and 2017 — just $750 each year — has become the focus of much attention since it was revealed in a New York Times investigation. The figures below, drawn from Mr. Trump’s tax-return data for 2017, show how his accountants arrived at that figure for one of those years."
6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:06 am
Spanish speaking viewers of Telemundo expressed their preference of who won tonight’s presidential debate: 66% Trump 34% Biden.
