Trump's Russian Collusion

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Bandito
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by Bandito »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:19 am
DMac wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:48 am Gotta figure her to be a deaf-mute then.
Sign language should be pretty easy for her, one finger'll do.
While trolls should not be fed, I got a chuckle from the "panties" and now this.

Had dinner last evening with a quite talkative fellow who wanted to argue about Trump and the impeachment. My age, early 60's, divorced. 4 of us at the table, this fellow, my wife, mom and I. He made many of the standard arguments straight off of Fox and OANN, had watched a bit of the hearings but not all. All "hearsay". Hates Dems. He allowed as to how he'd be ok with voting for Tulsi, though he hates Democrats, etc. Late in the conversation, my wife, who is quite reserved in her demeanor, asked him politely, "So, what do you think happened?"...he tried to go to Dems are bad...I suggested that it was actually a good question, what does he actually think Trump did...given what we have learned from the 'hearsay'. His response was that Trump is an egotist who was simply 'trying to clear his name' with the calls for investigating the 2016 Crowdstrike theory...how about the Bidens? That too is about the past, not 2020 Really? "Well, he was just trying to make it clear that Biden is dirty"

So, yeah, 'he did it'.
Red team.

Then he turned to my wife and said, jocularly, "I like you, you're quiet, like women should be"...she did not respond, just smiled. After we dropped him off, she said "what a surprise that he's divorced".

I’ll take things that didn’t happen for 500, Alex!

The only truth here is: none of these Dems witnessed anything. It’s all hearsay and lies. Dems know they can’t beat Trump in 2020 so they believe this is their only option. Democrats have talked about impeachment before Trump got elected. This is a witch hunt and is a sham and embarrassment to our Republic. Ironically, doing so will be the end of the Democrat party. They are socialists and communists who hate America and want to turn us into a third world country. JFK is rolling in his grave with the actions of these stupid Dems. He would be a staunch Republican today.
Last edited by Bandito on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RedFromMI
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by RedFromMI »

Readers of TalkingPointsMemo are often highly qualified to make predictions about various things. Here a former federal prosecutor is emailing editor Josh Marshal about why the House IC is not seeking Bolton/Mulvaney/Pompeo testimony at this time...

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/read-this-11

Basically - by using an impeachment trial as the vehicle, the House issues subpoenas for figures like I listed above, and the judgement of whether to grant them is up to Chief Justice John Roberts (subject to Senate override). But no court delays, and no disadvantage versus what a full Supreme Court would decide since Roberts would be the likely swing vote anyway.

And since this is in a very highly public setting everyone is watching. Only a few Rs would need to side with Ds to fail to override Roberts if the Rs in general do not like his decision.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

RedFromMI wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:25 am Readers of TalkingPointsMemo are often highly qualified to make predictions about various things. Here a former federal prosecutor is emailing editor Josh Marshal about why the House IC is not seeking Bolton/Mulvaney/Pompeo testimony at this time...

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/read-this-11

Basically - by using an impeachment trial as the vehicle, the House issues subpoenas for figures like I listed above, and the judgement of whether to grant them is up to Chief Justice John Roberts (subject to Senate override). But no court delays, and no disadvantage versus what a full Supreme Court would decide since Roberts would be the likely swing vote anyway.

And since this is in a very highly public setting everyone is watching. Only a few Rs would need to side with Ds to fail to override Roberts if the Rs in general do not like his decision.
Indeed, compelling logic.

I think we would all like to see Mulvaney, Pompeo, Perry, and Bolton take the stand, under oath, under close examination.
Same for documents.
I think Rudy would be fascinating, must-see TV as well.
(Trumpists should have no concern, as surely Trump will be fully exonerated by these guys, right?)

Tell the truth, fellas.
Or take the 5th.

Trump still gets off, election coming logic, but truth gets told (else folks going to jail for perjury later).
Two to three weeks and over.
calourie
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by calourie »

Sounds good for now. Let's see how it all pans out.
jhu72
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by jhu72 »

RedFromMI wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:25 am Readers of TalkingPointsMemo are often highly qualified to make predictions about various things. Here a former federal prosecutor is emailing editor Josh Marshal about why the House IC is not seeking Bolton/Mulvaney/Pompeo testimony at this time...

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/read-this-11

Basically - by using an impeachment trial as the vehicle, the House issues subpoenas for figures like I listed above, and the judgement of whether to grant them is up to Chief Justice John Roberts (subject to Senate override). But no court delays, and no disadvantage versus what a full Supreme Court would decide since Roberts would be the likely swing vote anyway.

And since this is in a very highly public setting everyone is watching. Only a few Rs would need to side with Ds to fail to override Roberts if the Rs in general do not like his decision.
I did not know how it worked, but suspected there was some advantage the D's accrued by waiting until the Senate "trial". I find it interesting that the R's (Orange Duce) almost immediately after the end of yesterday's session started claiming they were going to call the Biden(s) and their usual suspects as witnesses. To me this seemed more like a negotiation with the D's not to call the individuals you have named above. Bolton has to scare them. I heard a talking head this AM who claimed to know Bolton, that he is chomping at the bit to testify. Don't know whether I believe that or not. I still think the smart play is to let Bolton do his own thing. You have Fiona Hill as a Bolton surrogate (and a good one). Let Bolton go his own way to go after the "drug deal" in his tell all. This divorces the democrats from it. No matter what you are not going to get 67 votes. The dems will have done there constitutional duty - which is essential.
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dislaxxic
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by dislaxxic »

Facts are stubborn things. Little wonder why fact-challenged Republic congresscritters and their sycophants are falling all over themselves with faux outrage...

IMPEACHABLE ACTS: WHAT GOP SPIN CAN’T CHANGE

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
ggait
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by ggait »

Very possible that Bolton could be compelled to testify in the Senate under the Senate rules.

NSC-ers Vindman, Morrison and Hill have already testified. Since you have so much public testimony from so many about Bolton already, it would be very hard to make a reasonable claim about remaining privelege. Bolton is no longer a govt employee. Plus, recall that Bolton's lawyer made that strange voluntary statement about how much relevant info Bolton has.

So I think CJ Roberts would make him testify. And if Bolton continues to try to preserve his secrets for his book and paid speeches, you could even see Bolton get jailed for contempt. Not clear, however, how much the Dems would want Bolton to testify in the Senate.

Hard to tell how unreliable or hostile Bolton might be. Unclear if the Dems would be able to vet Bolton in advance of public testimony. A key part of the House process was being able to depose each witness for 8-10 hours to figure out what they had. Having Bolton show up cold in the Senate would risk asking him questions you don't know the answer to.

Keep eyes open on Monday for the judge's ruling in the McGahn case. If, as expected, the judge rules for the House my play would be to subpoena Bolton immediately citing McGahn as precedent. That subpoena would be for a House confidential vetting depo -- either before House Intelligence or House Judiciary (who might have this matter in hand by then). Bolton would then be set up for a public House hearing or for a dramatic appearance at the Senate trial.

Mulvaney, Pompeo, Perry (current cabinet level officials) and Giuliani (atty client privelege) would be tougher to compell and might be shifty/risky as witnesses.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
calourie
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by calourie »

ggait how about the release of documents, emails etc. that have been denied? Issues or problems with that?
jhu72
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by jhu72 »

ggait wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:21 am Very possible that Bolton could be compelled to testify in the Senate under the Senate rules.

NSC-ers Vindman, Morrison and Hill have already testified. Since you have so much public testimony from so many about Bolton already, it would be very hard to make a reasonable claim about remaining privelege. Bolton is no longer a govt employee. Plus, recall that Bolton's lawyer made that strange voluntary statement about how much relevant info Bolton has.

So I think CJ Roberts would make him testify. And if Bolton continues to try to preserve his secrets for his book and paid speeches, you could even see Bolton get jailed for contempt. Not clear, however, how much the Dems would want Bolton to testify in the Senate.

Hard to tell how unreliable or hostile Bolton might be. Unclear if the Dems would be able to vet Bolton in advance of public testimony. A key part of the House process was being able to depose each witness for 8-10 hours to figure out what they had. Having Bolton show up cold in the Senate would risk asking him questions you don't know the answer to.

Keep eyes open on Monday for the judge's ruling in the McGahn case. If, as expected, the judge rules for the House my play would be to subpoena Bolton immediately citing McGahn as precedent. That subpoena would be for a House confidential vetting depo -- either before House Intelligence or House Judiciary (who might have this matter in hand by then). Bolton would then be set up for a public House hearing or for a dramatic appearance at the Senate trial.

Mulvaney, Pompeo, Perry (current cabinet level officials) and Giuliani (atty client privelege) would be tougher to compell and might be shifty/risky as witnesses.
Thought about this. Think it is risky. If you do a closed door interview, whatever the D's hear the R's hear. If he for instance says he never heard the drug deal from Trump, only from Mulvaney, Sondland, Pompeo, etc -- that bolsters the R's case, even though there are witnesses to hearing / overhearing it from Trump. If he says he hears it from Trump it is game set match, but you still don't get 67 votes. Bolton is playing a game and I just don't see any advantage, real world advantage in his testimony. You are rolling the dice and the odds are against you for winning - getting the 67. If I understood Red's post correctly, Roberts is not going to just call Bolton, either the defense or the prosecutor have to request it. Correct me if I am wrong.
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RedFromMI
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by RedFromMI »

Trump’s GOP defenders cannot be shamed. It’s time to try this instead.

Co-conspirators...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... s-instead/
ggait
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by ggait »

ggait how about the release of documents, emails etc. that have been denied? Issues or problems with that?
Same rules should apply, but I doubt the Dems will spend much time on this.

At this point, the actual facts of the case are so well proved. You don't need any more evidence. So the Dems would only invest in something that would make for dramatic TV -- like a live witness.

Also, even if CJ Roberts would require document production, the actual production of the documents takes time. OMB or State has to assemble the docs. Then they have to be scrubbed/litigated for privelege or classification. Then have to be pored over once received. You might find a smoking gun email, but how likely is such an email to make an impact unless it was backed up by the live testimony.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
ggait
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by ggait »

If I understood Red's post correctly, Roberts is not going to just call Bolton, either the defense or the prosecutor have to request it. Correct me if I am wrong.
Roberts would only approve subpoena requests; he would not initiate them himself. So the Reps could subpoena Hunter Biden or the WB; Roberts would then determine if those subpoena should issue. He could allow them or deny them on the basis of irrelevance or some other ground.

Bottom line -- the Dems can get Bolton's testimony. Question is whether they really want it.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
ggait
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by ggait »

John Bolton
‏Verified account @AmbJohnBolton

We have now liberated the Twitter account, previously suppressed unfairly in the aftermath of my resignation as National Security Advisor. More to come.....
7:31 AM - 22 Nov 2019

John Bolton
‏Verified account @AmbJohnBolton

Glad to be back on Twitter after more than two months. For the backstory, stay tuned........
5:00 AM - 22 Nov 2019
So is Bolton teasing that he'll testify? Or is he selling books?

I vote books.
Last edited by ggait on Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
njbill
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by njbill »

jhu72 wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:55 am
ggait wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:21 am Very possible that Bolton could be compelled to testify in the Senate under the Senate rules.

NSC-ers Vindman, Morrison and Hill have already testified. Since you have so much public testimony from so many about Bolton already, it would be very hard to make a reasonable claim about remaining privelege. Bolton is no longer a govt employee. Plus, recall that Bolton's lawyer made that strange voluntary statement about how much relevant info Bolton has.

So I think CJ Roberts would make him testify. And if Bolton continues to try to preserve his secrets for his book and paid speeches, you could even see Bolton get jailed for contempt. Not clear, however, how much the Dems would want Bolton to testify in the Senate.

Hard to tell how unreliable or hostile Bolton might be. Unclear if the Dems would be able to vet Bolton in advance of public testimony. A key part of the House process was being able to depose each witness for 8-10 hours to figure out what they had. Having Bolton show up cold in the Senate would risk asking him questions you don't know the answer to.

Keep eyes open on Monday for the judge's ruling in the McGahn case. If, as expected, the judge rules for the House my play would be to subpoena Bolton immediately citing McGahn as precedent. That subpoena would be for a House confidential vetting depo -- either before House Intelligence or House Judiciary (who might have this matter in hand by then). Bolton would then be set up for a public House hearing or for a dramatic appearance at the Senate trial.

Mulvaney, Pompeo, Perry (current cabinet level officials) and Giuliani (atty client privelege) would be tougher to compell and might be shifty/risky as witnesses.
Thought about this. Think it is risky. If you do a closed door interview, whatever the D's hear the R's hear. If he for instance says he never heard the drug deal from Trump, only from Mulvaney, Sondland, Pompeo, etc -- that bolsters the R's case, even though there are witnesses to hearing / overhearing it from Trump. If he says he hears it from Trump it is game set match, but you still don't get 67 votes. Bolton is playing a game and I just don't see any advantage, real world advantage in his testimony. You are rolling the dice and the odds are against you for winning - getting the 67. If I understood Red's post correctly, Roberts is not going to just call Bolton, either the defense or the prosecutor have to request it. Correct me if I am wrong.
I agree Bolton is too risky unless you have a very good idea what he is going to say and are confident he would say it on TV before the American public.

Bolton is looking out for himself only. He is a very smart and savvy guy. Yes, I think he would like to write a book, be a TV commentator, etc., but I think what he wants more than anything else is to get back in power. He LOVES Power. To do that, he can’t burn bridges with the Republican Party. Obviously no Democratic administration is going to hire him. As much as he would like to stick it to Trump, I actually don’t think he wants to testify. If he stays silent, he preserves his options and doesn’t burn any bridges.

He was not part of the drug deal. Trump knows Bolton never would have gone for the Biden gambit and, thus, would not have brought him into those discussions. Trump limited those discussions to his fellow crooks, like Rudy, Mulvaney, Sondland. Bolton may not add all that much to what Fiona Hill had to say. Sure, it would be a lot sexier coming from Bolton, but the substance might not be that much different. And, for all the talk about executive privilege, conversations between Trump and Bolton might well be privileged. At least he could claim privilege and the House wouldn’t be able to get a judicial ruling compelling him to testify in time.

The other side of the coin is that Bolton might testify to some things that hurt the Democrats’ case. You saw that a little bit here and there with some of the witnesses who have been called so far. I suspect Bolton is clever enough to sprinkle in some good stuff for the Republicans. Sort of what Sondland tried to do, although Bolton would be much more sophisticated and convincing about it.

In sum, I doubt the Democrats would have an opportunity to find out ahead of time on the QT what Bolton would say. In the absence of that, it is simply too risky to call him, I think.
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by ggait »

My pet theory. Bolton's publisher might actually want him to testify.

First, a TV appearance in the Senate would be darned good book publicity marketing.

Second, Bolton might be freer and clearer to dish in his book after providing compelled testimony. If he is legally compelled to testify, it would be very hard to argue that his later book revelations are still subject to some kind of exec privelege.

The tell -- that statement from the atty about how much stuff Bolton knows and could tell. If only he could be compelled to testify.

The downer for Dems. Given what Bolton wants to do in the future (conservative pundit or think tanker), he can't totally burn the Reps by taking down Trump. So if Bolton is willing to testify, that means he probably doesn't really have anything all that new/juicy on UK. Agree that Trump and Rudy would have wanted to keep him mostly de-looped on UK. Preferring to work with more pliant types like Gordo.

Bolton's book revelations are probably just going to be more of what we've heard before from others -- Trump is stupid, lazy, unfit, narcisist. Yawn.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
jhu72
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by jhu72 »

ggait wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:01 pm
John Bolton
‏Verified account @AmbJohnBolton

We have now liberated the Twitter account, previously suppressed unfairly in the aftermath of my resignation as National Security Advisor. More to come.....
7:31 AM - 22 Nov 2019

John Bolton
‏Verified account @AmbJohnBolton

Glad to be back on Twitter after more than two months. For the backstory, stay tuned........
5:00 AM - 22 Nov 2019
So is Bolton teasing that he'll testify? Or is he selling books?

I vote books.

That is my vote as well.
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njbill
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by njbill »

This is only partially tongue-in-cheek. The Democrats should call Trump to testify in the trial in the Senate. Unlike a criminal trial, Trump would have no valid basis for refusing to be called to the stand. Hard to imagine a basis for Roberts not permitting the Dems to call Trump. Would the Republicans really vote to overrule Roberts? That would surely be fodder for the 2020 election.

Unlike Bolton, Trump is not smart. He would be a terrible witness. I think any lawyer examining him in the Senate trial (as long is it is not a House member (heaven help us)) would make mincemeat of him. Look at all the tweets and video clips you would have to work with.

Sure, Trump could plead the 5th to particular questions, as could a civil defendant, but the Democrats might then be entitled to an adverse inference ruling from Roberts. And would Trump really take the 5th on national TV? I don’t think so.

What is the downside to the Democrats? Robert won’t allow the testimony? The Republicans overrule a ruling from Roberts that Trump must testify? Those seem to be eminently reasonable risks to me.

Trumps loves TV ratings. He’d get a worldwide audience. He could probably legitimately claim he got the greatest TV ratings in history. Even the aborigines would probably tune in.
jhu72
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by jhu72 »

ggait wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm
If I understood Red's post correctly, Roberts is not going to just call Bolton, either the defense or the prosecutor have to request it. Correct me if I am wrong.
Roberts would only approve subpoena requests; he would not initiate them himself. So the Reps could subpoena Hunter Biden or the WB; Roberts would then determine if those subpoena should issue. He could allow them or deny them on the basis of irrelevance or some other ground.

Bottom line -- the Dems can get Bolton's testimony. Question is whether they really want it.
That was my impression. Thanks.
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jhu72
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by jhu72 »

njbill wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:26 pm This is only partially tongue-in-cheek. The Democrats should call Trump to testify in the trial in the Senate. Unlike a criminal trial, Trump would have no valid basis for refusing to be called to the stand. Hard to imagine a basis for Roberts not permitting the Dems to call Trump. Would the Republicans really vote to overrule Roberts? That would surely be fodder for the 2020 election.

Unlike Bolton, Trump is not smart. He would be a terrible witness. I think any lawyer examining him in the Senate trial (as long is it is not a House member (heaven help us)) would make mincemeat of him. Look at all the tweets and video clips you would have to work with.

Sure, Trump could plead the 5th to particular questions, as could a civil defendant, but the Democrats might then be entitled to an adverse inference ruling from Roberts. And would Trump really take the 5th on national TV? I don’t think so.

What is the downside to the Democrats? Robert won’t allow the testimony? The Republicans overrule a ruling from Roberts that Trump must testify? Those seem to be eminently reasonable risks to me.

Trumps loves TV ratings. He’d get a worldwide audience. He could probably legitimately claim he got the greatest TV ratings in history. Even the aborigines would probably tune in.

Yup. If Trump is to be convicted in the Senate, he will have to do it himself. "Only I can do it." :lol:
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ggait
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Re: IMPEACHMENT ... Bribery, Extortion and Abuse of Power

Post by ggait »

So I see that in Clinton's impeachment, the House managers took closed-door depos from Monica Lewinsky, Vernon Jordan, and Sidney Blumenthal. So there is some precedent for being able to vet Bolton's possible testimony at the Senate stage. Utlimately, the Senate voted to have the videos played as testimony rather than calling live witnesses.

Also, remember that Clinton testified to a grand jury and videos of his GJ testimony were played in the Senate. So there's precedent for the Dems to Gobosh and subpoena Trump himself. But if Trump defies the subpoena (likely), what exactly is anyone going to do about it? So I would not vote to shoot this bullet.
I think any lawyer examining him in the Senate trial (as long is it is not a House member (heaven help us)) would make mincemeat of him.
I think the managers in the Senate have to be members of Congress -- typically House Judiciary members. I think staffers like Dan Goldman can only play at the committee level or work behind the scenes. For Clinton, there were 13 member/managers and I think they were the only ones who participated and spoke at the Senate trial.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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