LaxPower Back-Up Stick

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:24 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:15 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:46 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:16 pm Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

That was the Iron Sheik dude. And who didn't get their jollies watching Sgt Slaughter pile driving him headfirst into the canvass? He was Iranian by birth but the iron sheik sounded more bad ass.

Yes mistyped. Actually met him before he died he lived in the suburbs of Atlanta like many wrestlers. He didn’t really enjoy the character personally. He made that clear. But was very proud of getting Hogan over after beating Bob Backlund for the title and being at the start of what became the dominant international wrestling business that he effectively ushered in w Andre, Hogan, Steamboat, JYD, Macho, Diabase and a few others.

You forget how Slaughter turned into an POS. Perhaps a warning for what was to come in our real world ironically.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o9us_aw0nQc

I don't remember the details. I do know Sgt Slaughter disappeared from wrestling. FTR I really liked the Iron Sheik. He played the role of a bad guy so very well. My favorite bad guy wrestler back in my day was Ernie the big cat Ladd.

SCLaxAttack wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:57 am

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:42 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:15 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:46 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:16 pm Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

... the Israeli right wing doesn't want peace if they have to give up anything. This is well documented. In fact there is significant evidence in major Israeli papers since the attack, that some of Bibi's folks view Hamas as a tool to be used to help advance the right wing agenda of killing the 2 state solution (I thought it was already dead) and advancing their goal - unfettered expansion into Palestinian lands. WaPo and NY Times are now picking up on these stories as well. Bibi is in it up to his neck. Bibi is being accused of letting down the nation's defense in the southwest where the rockets and massacres were taking place while the army was hanging out in the northeast protecting settlers in the Golan after stripping soldiers from the Gaza defenses. Don't think anyone is saying Bibi knew the attack was coming, but the defenses had been rearranged based on existing administration policy.

There is also a report / rumor running around that the Egyptians had in fact tried to warn Israel that something was coming shortly before it happened. I haven't seen any details. If true I am sure we will learn more within 24 hours.

So if this theory is true, this is less like Israel’s 9-11 and more like its Pearl Harbor.

Is this yet, even comparable to 99-2000 intifada?

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:33 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:08 pm

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:31 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:57 pm

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:46 pm News agencies across the globe now confirming that Hamas murdered/beheaded babies and infants at Kfar Aza.

... I have no doubt that Hamas is committing atrocities.

Must be why you haven't added the Palestinian flag next to your Ukraine flag

Where is that coming from?

But perhaps I've missed your point with the rolling eyes...

jhu72 knows. I've been pointing out his hypocrisy going back to LP. He's always howling about fascism and yet is supportive of Iran's theocratic fascist gov't and connected theocratic terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah. And yet he's anti-religion too? He says he's not supportive but his body of posts over the years, IMO, say otherwise.

I think the Hamas atrocities we're hearing about/seeing, ruin any moral high ground he may claim and certainly tempers his criticism of Israel (at least for now). You took my post too literally mdlax.

jhu72 has the right to support whomever he wants, no doubt, but others have the right to criticize. It's just my opinion and you asked mdlax.

gosh, I guess I need to re-read 72's posts...I don't recall him being "supportive of Iran's theocratic fascist gov't and connected theocratic terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah". Supportive???

What posts or positions has he taken that lead you to that conclusion, despite him saying he's not "supportive" of them?

Would you say the same of my views when I say that the right wing government in Israel, and the right wing ideologues who definitely want to simply eliminate Palestinians from the land by any means necessary, are a big part of the impediment to any sense of peace and justice in Israel...does that make me "supportive" of Iran's religio-fascist govt? or of Hamas, Hezbollah?

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:49 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:24 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:15 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:46 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:16 pm Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

That was the Iron Sheik dude. And who didn't get their jollies watching Sgt Slaughter pile driving him headfirst into the canvass? He was Iranian by birth but the iron sheik sounded more bad ass.

Yes mistyped. Actually met him before he died he lived in the suburbs of Atlanta like many wrestlers. He didn’t really enjoy the character personally. He made that clear. But was very proud of getting Hogan over after beating Bob Backlund for the title and being at the start of what became the dominant international wrestling business that he effectively ushered in w Andre, Hogan, Steamboat, JYD, Macho, Diabase and a few others.

You forget how Slaughter turned into an POS. Perhaps a warning for what was to come in our real world ironically.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o9us_aw0nQc

I don't remember the details. I do know Sgt Slaughter disappeared from wrestling. FTR I really liked the Iron Sheik. He played the role of a bad guy so very well. My favorite bad guy wrestler back in my day was Ernie the big cat Ladd.

The effective heel is the hardest and most valuable role in wrestling. The Rock didn’t get over for 2-3yrs until he went from “baby face” to “heel” and he’s as big a movie star as anyone now but that’s what it took. The best professionals make you want to murder or run away from them. That’s his legacy-Sheik. And he just died in the last year or so.

Better than chris Benoits exit which was CTE induced but Vince McMahin tried to blame on juice (which he provided wrestlers in the 80s and under federal charges at one point for such acitivities). Or even Rick Steiners post wrestling career-https://ricksteiner.atlcommunities.com/

Formerly he was a wrestler at Michigan and looked like this:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mlive. ... utType=amp

Someone explain to me why the US has deployed two (2!) strike groups to the Europe/Med?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Strike_Group_12

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Strike_Group_2

Putin would love to see a maritime loss. Bloody the US nose by proxy. Iran makes quite a few "ship-killers." Working on stealth and unmanned "drone" surface vessels as well.

Never, ever get between the dog and the tree. You'd think we would have learned that lesson in October, 1983 in Beirut (part of the reason I declined the full ride from the US Navy). Spoke with my father, a former naval officer (who was enthusiastic about not paying for my education) about the Marine Corps barracks bombing shortly after that event. He told me the world was different from his service (Korean War), and that the situation in Israel/Palestine was an intractable mess. Well, he was right. Glad I could hear what he was saying and act accordingly.

So, why is the US involved in a pointless, horrific conflict with two obdurate parties? How is this in the interests of the US? I say get free from the bonds of petroleum and shuck this whole fiasco. That and separate our foreign policy from disequity perpetuation -- fcuk Elon and his ilk. We have enough on our plate here: rising economic inequality, persistent racial strife, declining life expectancy (deaths of despair), looming authoritarianism, and oh, rapid climate change. At the heart of most, if not all of these issues is the same as the shiteshow du jour in Gaza/Israel: too many humans competing for declining resources and not sharing "nicely."

If you think what is happening today in Israel and Gaza is fcuked up, wait until the climate migrations begin in earnest. The relatively short period post-WWII in which infectious disease, mass hunger, and large-scale war were addressed is OVER.

Could humanity adapt and address some of these challenges? Yes.

Will they? Doubtful.

"The question is whether there is any reason to believe that such a new era may yet come to pass. If I am sanguine on this point, it is because of a conviction that men and nations do behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. Surely the other alternatives of war and belligerency have now been exhausted."

--Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat, circa 1967

Question is, do we have the temporal luxury of "exhausting all other alternatives"?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:40 amBut the right wing ideologues in Israel really aren't looking for peace and prosperity for Palestinians, they are solely focused on suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. And that's who is in power in this coalition.

I don't believe that to be true. I think there are Israeli politicians with less than idealistic goals (e.g. Wealth, power, etc.) but with rare exceptions, even amongst the far left and far right, they want peace. They may believe that peace can be attained through suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. But they want peace. And, to be fair, they're not wrong. For example, if realistically, Peace won't happen for another few decades, another generation or more, how do you stay safe until real Peace can be attained? One might argue that this top gap measure is delaying peace and this may very well be true. But you gotta protect your kids...

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:45 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:40 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:05 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:12 am You could make the same statement of Palestinians...the question is "how to get it".

But is it really "peace" if it's achieved through genocide or complete subjugation of the 'other'? (apply that to either perspective) Can such a "peace" ever hold for long?

For Palestinians, yes. For Hamas, the governing of Gaza, no way. Explicitly and unapologetically, they don't want peace. They want the Jews off the map.

But the right wing ideologues in Israel really aren't looking for peace and prosperity for Palestinians, they are solely focused on suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. And that's who is in power in this coalition.

Isn't this existential for Israel? In Israel's interest (to survive), what people would you prefer be in power?

I've numerous times written that Israel faces existential threats. Certainly from some of its neighbors. No question.

So, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

As to "what people" I "would prefer be in power", that's moderate Israelis in Israel, moderate Palestinians in a Palestinian second state. Both governed through constitutional democracies that protected the rights of minorities. In Jerusalem's old city, a neutral power sharing agreement with UN or other international supervision, with a constitutional government that guarantees safe access to holy places by all religions.

We're a long way from that resolution, but in the meantime as to Israelis, I would prefer the moderates to be in power. Not the far left, certainly not the far right religio-fascists.

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:59 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:40 amBut the right wing ideologues in Israel really aren't looking for peace and prosperity for Palestinians, they are solely focused on suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. And that's who is in power in this coalition.

I don't believe that to be true. I think there are Israeli politicians with less than idealistic goals (e.g. Wealth, power, etc.) but with rare exceptions, even amongst the far left and far right, they want peace. They may believe that peace can be attained through suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. But they want peace. And, to be fair, they're not wrong. For example, if realistically, Peace won't happen for another few decades, another generation or more, how do you stay safe until real Peace can be attained? One might argue that this top gap measure is delaying peace and this may very well be true. But you gotta protect your kids...

I don't think elements of Bibi's current coalition want peace. I suspect if they had their way they'd favor escalation to eliminate any immediate threat. If Israeli politicians really wanted peace how is that they have ignored the issue for so long? Expanded settlements in occupied territories, bulldozing homes of suspected terrorists without any due process - they are not without blame. Some good news here today - Israel has reached a deal for a unity “emergency government” according to a statement by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Benny Gantz, the leader of an opposition political alliance. The main piece of the deal includes a “war management cabinet” which will include Netanyahu, Gantz and Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. None of the ultra right ministers are part of this.

The object lesson here IMHO (which should not be lost on any of us) is that when your political system and institutions are under constant attack and stress you cannot depend on those institutions that are designed to insure your security to keep you safe in every case. Despite the current crisis, the HoR are not even close to electing a new speaker. Ask yourself why Nancy Mace is now part of the arson caucus - she didn't get a brain transplant - the SC state legislature just redrew her congressional map from a swing district to MAGA (SCOTUS is reviewing it this term) and that is all you need to know

If he happened there there is no reason to suspect that it could happen here as well.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:53 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:33 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:08 pm

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:31 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:57 pm

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:46 pm News agencies across the globe now confirming that Hamas murdered/beheaded babies and infants at Kfar Aza.

... I have no doubt that Hamas is committing atrocities.

Must be why you haven't added the Palestinian flag next to your Ukraine flag

Where is that coming from?

But perhaps I've missed your point with the rolling eyes...

jhu72 knows. I've been pointing out his hypocrisy going back to LP. He's always howling about fascism and yet is supportive of Iran's theocratic fascist gov't and connected theocratic terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah. And yet he's anti-religion too? He says he's not supportive but his body of posts over the years, IMO, say otherwise.

I think the Hamas atrocities we're hearing about/seeing, ruin any moral high ground he may claim and certainly tempers his criticism of Israel (at least for now). You took my post too literally mdlax.

jhu72 has the right to support whomever he wants, no doubt, but others have the right to criticize. It's just my opinion and you asked mdlax.

gosh, I guess I need to re-read 72's posts...I don't recall him being "supportive of Iran's theocratic fascist gov't and connected theocratic terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah". Supportive???

What posts or positions has he taken that lead you to that conclusion, despite him saying he's not "supportive" of them?

Would you say the same of my views when I say that the right wing government in Israel, and the right wing ideologues who definitely want to simply eliminate Palestinians from the land by any means necessary, are a big part of the impediment to any sense of peace and justice in Israel...does that make me "supportive" of Iran's religio-fascist govt? or of Hamas, Hezbollah?

The posts I'm referring to go way back and are within the context of my direct correspondence with him. It's not as though he starts threads in order to proclaim support as you've seemed to frame it. I should have been more specific but I'm not about to go back and dig them up. Wouldn't even know how. jhu72 is a big boy and he can respond or not.

Question for you. Do you think this is an existential moment in history for Israel?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:53 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:33 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:08 pm

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:31 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:57 pm

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:46 pm News agencies across the globe now confirming that Hamas murdered/beheaded babies and infants at Kfar Aza.

... I have no doubt that Hamas is committing atrocities.

Must be why you haven't added the Palestinian flag next to your Ukraine flag

Where is that coming from?

But perhaps I've missed your point with the rolling eyes...

jhu72 knows. I've been pointing out his hypocrisy going back to LP. He's always howling about fascism and yet is supportive of Iran's theocratic fascist gov't and connected theocratic terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah. And yet he's anti-religion too? He says he's not supportive but his body of posts over the years, IMO, say otherwise.

I think the Hamas atrocities we're hearing about/seeing, ruin any moral high ground he may claim and certainly tempers his criticism of Israel (at least for now). You took my post too literally mdlax.

jhu72 has the right to support whomever he wants, no doubt, but others have the right to criticize. It's just my opinion and you asked mdlax.

gosh, I guess I need to re-read 72's posts...I don't recall him being "supportive of Iran's theocratic fascist gov't and connected theocratic terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah". Supportive???

What posts or positions has he taken that lead you to that conclusion, despite him saying he's not "supportive" of them?

Would you say the same of my views when I say that the right wing government in Israel, and the right wing ideologues who definitely want to simply eliminate Palestinians from the land by any means necessary, are a big part of the impediment to any sense of peace and justice in Israel...does that make me "supportive" of Iran's religio-fascist govt? or of Hamas, Hezbollah?

Supportive of a calm, reality-based perspective, maybe.

On the subject of Iranian religio-fascist gov't, and the Hamas debacle, both prime examples of "blowback"

https://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Consequ ... 0805075593

from ill-advised political machinations and interventions in other countries business, I find it amusing that people rail about the mullahs in Iran when it was the CIA's actions in 1953 in Iranian politics that short-circuited Iranian democracy and paved the way for a reactionary Islamist takeover (1980) from the repressive Shah and his Savak (I have a friend whose father was in the CIA and stationed in Tehran in the 1950s after that little "adjustment." The stories he tells me are like something out of a British spy novel. Not surprisingly since the CIA was acting in concert with MI6 to perpetuate the economic interests of the forerunner of BP. Oh, that's right, economic "interests" and petroleum. Twin harbingers of doom.

I fear something similar in this country if we aren't attentive to the fragile flower of democracy.

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:06 am I don't think elements of Bibi's current coalition want peace. I suspect if they had their way they' favor escalation...

I don't think you're wrong. But they want escalation so that... They can have peace. They want to make bold, violent moves to end this thing once and for all so that they can have peace. And, I guess, you can say the same for Hamas, Hitler, and many others. They want to wipe the Jews off the map so that... They can have peace. In theory, everybody wants peace. Everyone wants to resolve their internal issue. The challenge seems to be finding peace whilst trying to have a low impact on the world and the people around you. Using that criteria, I agree. Elements of Bibi's current coalition, including Bibi, are not concerned about being low impact.

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:11 amDo you think this is an existential moment in history for Israel?

This morning's NY Times Daily Podcast described it as such. For many Jews, Israel is their home because they want to live as Jews while feeling safe. After what happened this weekend, if Israel doesn't act in a way that will make Israelis feel safe again, this will be a major problem.

Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:06 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:59 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:40 amBut the right wing ideologues in Israel really aren't looking for peace and prosperity for Palestinians, they are solely focused on suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. And that's who is in power in this coalition.

I don't believe that to be true. I think there are Israeli politicians with less than idealistic goals (e.g. Wealth, power, etc.) but with rare exceptions, even amongst the far left and far right, they want peace. They may believe that peace can be attained through suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. But they want peace. And, to be fair, they're not wrong. For example, if realistically, Peace won't happen for another few decades, another generation or more, how do you stay safe until real Peace can be attained? One might argue that this top gap measure is delaying peace and this may very well be true. But you gotta protect your kids...

I don't think elements of Bibi's current coalition want peace. I suspect if they had their way they'd favor escalation to eliminate any immediate threat. If Israeli politicians really wanted peace how is that they have ignored the issue for so long? Expanded settlements in occupied territories, bulldozing homes of suspected terrorists without any due process - they are not without blame.

The object lesson here IMHO (which should not be lost on any of us) is that when your political system and institutions are under constant attack and stress you cannot depend on those institutions that are designed to insure your security to keep you safe in every case. Despite the current crisis, the HoR are not even close to electing a new speaker. Ask yourself why Nancy Mace is now part of the arson caucus - she didn't get a brain transplant - the SC state legislature just redrew her congressional map from a swing district to MAGA (SCOTUS is reviewing it this term) and that is all you need to know

If he happened there there is no reason to suspect that it could happen here as well.

That and the "lawnmowing" policy (classic kick-the-can-down-the-road "leadership") re the Hamas leadership since 2007 has done little except grow a bumper crop of "residents" of the seaside luxury Gaza resort who are so warped and disfigured by their reality that they are most likely NEVER going to be able to conduct themselves with a modicum of restraint.

Not in any way an excuse or justification for recent events -- just a thoughtful taste of reality. Or have we dispensed with thinking and moved to being "men of action"?!? Wake me up after all of the "bold actions to preserve their existence" and let me know how the situation is different.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:14 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:08 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:24 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:15 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:46 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:16 pm Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

That was the Iron Sheik dude. And who didn't get their jollies watching Sgt Slaughter pile driving him headfirst into the canvass? He was Iranian by birth but the iron sheik sounded more bad ass.

Yes mistyped. Actually met him before he died he lived in the suburbs of Atlanta like many wrestlers. He didn’t really enjoy the character personally. He made that clear. But was very proud of getting Hogan over after beating Bob Backlund for the title and being at the start of what became the dominant international wrestling business that he effectively ushered in w Andre, Hogan, Steamboat, JYD, Macho, Diabase and a few others.

You forget how Slaughter turned into an POS. Perhaps a warning for what was to come in our real world ironically.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o9us_aw0nQc

I loved the Iron Sheik but wasn’t there also a second sheik?

I’m in my 40s so yeah referring to the one of the 80s not the one of the 40s, where cradle views the world to have stopped changing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Sheik

He battled Bobo Brazil!

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:23 am...Or have we dispensed with thinking and moved to being "men of action"?!? Wake me up after all of the "bold actions to preserve their existence" and let me know how the situation is different.

Pizza, It's Wednesday and Israel still hasn't made any wholesale moves. They're doing plenty of thinking, planning...

Excellent in-depth piece from NYT on lapses in Israeli security at the border with Gaza

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/worl ... ilure.html

"How Israel’s Feared Security Services Failed to Stop Hamas’s Attack

Israel’s military and espionage services are considered among the world’s best, but on Saturday, operational and intelligence failures led to the worst breach of Israeli defenses in half a century.

Shortly before attackers from Gaza poured into Israel at dawn on Saturday, Israeli intelligence detected a surge in activity on some of the Gazan militant networks it monitors. Realizing something unusual was happening, they sent an alert to the Israeli soldiers guarding the Gazan border, according to two senior Israeli security officials.

But the warning wasn’t acted upon, either because the soldiers didn’t get it or the soldiers didn’t read it.

Shortly afterward, Hamas, the group that controls Gaza, sent drones to disable some of the Israeli military’s cellular communications stations and surveillance towers along the border, preventing the duty officers from monitoring the area remotely with video cameras. The drones also destroyed remote-controlled machine guns that Israel had installed on its border fortifications, removing a key means of combating a ground attack."
That made it easier for Hamas assailants to approach and blow up parts of the border fence and bulldoze it in several places with surprising ease, allowing thousands of Palestinians to walk through the gaps.

These operational failures and weaknesses were among a wide array of logistical and intelligence lapses by the Israeli security services that paved the way for the Gazan incursion into southern Israel, according to four senior Israeli security officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to discuss a sensitive matter and their early assessment of what went wrong.

The brazen infiltration of more than 20 Israeli towns and army bases in that raid was the worst breach of Israel’s defenses in 50 years and shattered the nation’s sense of security. For hours, the strongest military in the Middle East was rendered powerless to fight back against a far weaker enemy, leaving villages defenseless for most of the day against squads of terrorists who killed more than 1,000 Israelis, including soldiers in their underwear; abducted at least 150 people; overran at least four military camps; and spread out across more than 30 square miles of Israeli territory.

The four officials said the success of the attack, based on their early assessment, was rooted in a slew of security failures by Israel’s intelligence community and military, including:

Failure by intelligence officers to monitor key communication channels used by Palestinian attackers;

Overreliance on border surveillance equipment that was easily shut down by attackers, allowing them to raid military bases and slay soldiers in their beds;

Clustering of commanders in a single border base that was overrun in the opening phase of the incursion, preventing communication with the rest of the armed forces;

And a willingness to accept at face value assertions by Gazan military leaders, made on private channels that the Palestinians knew were being monitored by Israel, that they were not preparing for battle.

“We spend billions and billions on gathering intelligence on Hamas,” said Yoel Guzansky, a former senior official at Israel’s National Security Council. “Then, in a second,” he added, “everything collapsed like dominoes.”


The first failure took root months before the attack, as Israeli security chiefs made incorrect assumptions about the extent of the threat that Hamas posed to Israel from Gaza.

Hamas stayed out of two fights in the past year, allowing Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a smaller armed group in Gaza, to take on Israel alone. Last month, Hamas leadership also ended a period of rioting along the border, in an agreement brokered by Qatar, giving the impression that it was not looking for an escalation.

“Hamas is very, very restrained and understands the implications of further defiance,” said Tzachi Hanegbi, Israel’s national security adviser, in a radio interview six days before the assault.

When Israeli intelligence officials briefed senior security chiefs last week about the most urgent threats to the country’s defenses, they focused on the dangers posed by Lebanese militants along Israel’s northern border.

The challenge posed by Hamas was barely mentioned.

Hamas is deterred, the briefers said, according to one of the security officials.

In calls, Hamas operatives, who talked to one another when tapped by Israeli intelligence agents, also gave the sense that they sought to avoid another war with Israel so soon after a damaging two-week conflict in May 2021, according to two of the Israeli officials. Israeli intelligence, they said, is now looking into whether those calls were real or staged.

The next failure was operational.

Two of the officials said that the Israeli border surveillance system was almost entirely reliant on cameras, sensors and machine guns that are operated remotely.

Israeli commanders had grown overly confident in the system’s impregnability. They thought that the combination of remote surveillance and arms, barriers above ground and a subterranean wall to block Hamas from digging tunnels into Israel made mass infiltration unlikely, reducing the need for significant numbers of soldiers to be physically stationed along the border line itself.

With the system in place, the military started reducing the number of troops there, moving them to other areas of concern, including the West Bank, according to Israel Ziv, a retired major general who commanded ground forces in the south for many years, served as the head of the Israel Defense Forces’ Operations Division from 2003 to 2005 and was recently recruited into the reserves again because of the war.

“The thinning of the forces seemed reasonable because of the construction of the fence and the aura they created around it, as if it were invincible, that nothing would be able to pass it,” he said.

But the remote-control system had a vulnerability: It could also be destroyed remotely.

Hamas took advantage of that weakness by sending aerial drones to attack the cellular towers that transmitted signals to and from the surveillance system, according to the officials and also drone footage circulated by Hamas on Saturday and analyzed by The New York Times.

Without cellular signals, the system was useless. Soldiers stationed in control rooms behind the front lines did not receive alarms that the fence separating Gaza and Israel had been breached, and could not watch video showing them where the Hamas attackers were bulldozing the barricades. In addition, the barrier turned out to be easier to break through than Israeli officials had expected.

That allowed more than 1,500 Gazan fighters to surge through nearly 30 points along the border, some of them in hang-gliders that flew over the top of the barricades, and reach at least four Israeli military bases without being intercepted.

Photos shared by one of the Israeli officials showed that scores of Israeli soldiers were then shot as they slept in their dorms. Some were still wearing their underclothes.

The second operational failure was the clustering of leaders from the army’s Gaza division in a single location along the border. Once the base was overrun, most of the senior officers were killed, injured or taken hostage, according to two of the Israeli officials.

That situation, combined with the communication problems caused by the drone strikes, prevented a coordinated response. This kept anyone along the border from grasping the full breadth of the assault, including the commanders who rushed from elsewhere in Israel to launch a counterattack.

“Understanding what the picture was of the different terrorist attacks was very difficult,” said Brig. Gen. Dan Goldfuss, an Israeli commander who helped lead the counterattack.

At one point on the ground, the general encountered — by chance — a commander from another brigade. There and then, the two men decided on an ad hoc basis which villages their respective units would try to retake.

“We decided just between ourselves,” the general said. “And that’s how we went by, from one village to another.”

All of this meant it was hard, especially in the early stages, to communicate the gravity of the situation to the military high command in Tel Aviv.

As a result, no one there sensed the immediate need for a massive, rapid air cover, even as social media emerged with reports of attacks in many communities. It took hours for the air force to arrive over much of the area, even though it has bases just minutes away in flying time, according to two of the Israeli officials and survivors of the attacks.

The fallout has been catastrophic for Israel’s security, as well as potentially damaging to its reputation in the region as a reliable military partner.

Before Saturday, “Israel was an asset to many countries in the region on security issues,” Mr. Guzansky said. “The image now is that Israel is not an asset.”

The Israeli security services do not dispute the scale of their initial failure. But they say that it can be investigated only after the war ends.

“We’ll finish this,” said Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, a military spokesman, as the army attempted to regain control of the communities on Saturday.

But, he said, “You know that this will be investigated.”

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 10:30 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:14 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:08 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:59 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:24 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:15 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:46 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:16 pm Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

That was the Iron Sheik dude. And who didn't get their jollies watching Sgt Slaughter pile driving him headfirst into the canvass? He was Iranian by birth but the iron sheik sounded more bad ass.

Yes mistyped. Actually met him before he died he lived in the suburbs of Atlanta like many wrestlers. He didn’t really enjoy the character personally. He made that clear. But was very proud of getting Hogan over after beating Bob Backlund for the title and being at the start of what became the dominant international wrestling business that he effectively ushered in w Andre, Hogan, Steamboat, JYD, Macho, Diabase and a few others.

You forget how Slaughter turned into an POS. Perhaps a warning for what was to come in our real world ironically.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o9us_aw0nQc

I loved the Iron Sheik but wasn’t there also a second sheik?

I’m in my 40s so yeah referring to the one of the 80s not the one of the 40s, where cradle views the world to have stopped changing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Sheik

He battled Bobo Brazil!

My four horseman were:

Ricky the dragon Steamboat
Junk Yard Dog (notwithstanding the overt racism of it-kind fi what makes old wrestling so fun is how ridiculous it is)
Million Dollar Man Ted Diabiase (everybody DOES have a price)
And GOAT Rowdy Roddy Piper - the OG antihero

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:53 am

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:46 am

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:22 am

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:06 am ^ kindly provide a translation

No. Why?

Better to provide facts rather than mindless accusations.

Facts are looking miserable for Hamas. Israel is terrible too. Palestinian civilians and jewish civilians are always caught in the crossfire.

Murdering children and killing civilians ? You're gonna hitch your wagon to a murderous nation either way. Great job my man.

Actually, I haven't got a dog in this fight. What bothers me is that once again the government is going to concern itself with all this crap while problems at home are going to be disregarded and unsolved.

Savvy?

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:33 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:08 pm

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 3:31 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:57 pm

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:46 pm News agencies across the globe now confirming that Hamas murdered/beheaded babies and infants at Kfar Aza.

... I have no doubt that Hamas is committing atrocities.

Must be why you haven't added the Palestinian flag next to your Ukraine flag

Where is that coming from?

But perhaps I've missed your point with the rolling eyes...

jhu72 knows. I've been pointing out his hypocrisy going back to LP. He's always howling about fascism and yet is supportive of Iran's theocratic fascist gov't and connected theocratic terrorist groups like Hamas/Hezbollah. And yet he's anti-religion too? He says he's not supportive but his body of posts over the years, IMO, say otherwise.

I think the Hamas atrocities we're hearing about/seeing, ruin any moral high ground he may claim and certainly tempers his criticism of Israel (at least for now). You took my post too literally mdlax.

jhu72 has the right to support whomever he wants, no doubt, but others have the right to criticize. It's just my opinion and you asked mdlax.

... Get real. I am not supportive of Iran's government. I am supportive of trying to deal with them in some other way than you would, the right-wing non-solution. I am supportive of the bulk of the Iranian people.

To make my positions very clear:

1) I am not anti-religion -- I am an atheist. I am anti-hypocrisy. I am anti-fascism hiding behind faux piety, faux godliness. You want to be religious, you will have no problem with me - I DON'T CARE. You start trying to force your faith on me or society, trying to have me / others paying for your religion, we will have a problem. I have no desire to interfere with a man's belief if he is living in society in a fashion respecting the rights of others. I have a big problem with Dominionists and those who believe their religion affords or should a special place.

2) Hamas/Hezbollah etc. - I do not support them and I recognize perfectly well what they are. I do support the Palestinians, as I do most oppressed people. I am not going to get more spun up over H/H when I have fascist religious zealots in my own country, backyard, that actually represent a bigger danger to me, mine and my country. You are looking for more virtue signaling, everyone has to say they hate H/H and don't forget Iran, in order to be thought that they don't support H / H / I. It is childish.

3) You react to atrocities any way you like. I don't see the relevance of your reactions or those of people who ring their hands over a gruesome death and find that somehow more noteworthy, more meaningful than a non-gruesome death. Dead is dead, I find it all equally horrible. The reaction you want serves no purpose - other than virtue signaling. It is meant to excite the passions and cloud the mind -- an awful lot of that going around!.

4) I have tempered nothing about my feelings on Israel. I changed my approach to explain my perspective without the offending "word" to an individual who I found a reasonable man.

5) An unprompted bonus explanation - I am not anti-Jewish. Frankly I find the Jews to be very reasonable people, save for many, not all of the Orthodox. I have a number of Jewish extended family members, including two who currently reside in Israel. My wife is also Jewish and my daughter visits Israel occasionally, in the past. None of them are very religious, it is more cultural for them. I don't have a problem with Jews, I have a problem with the Israeli government, and have for the past couple decades.

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:57 am

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:54 pm To say that NYC Jewish progressives, or the Jewish Voice for Peace, or that Albert Einstein and that roster of scholarly Jewish liberals are/were anti Semitic is the greatest lunacy I have ever seen.

Brooklyn, to support Hamas is to be anti-Semitic. With this said, feel free. There's a rally this weekend in Times Square. Go and wave a Palestinian flag. You won't be alone.

these Jews are doing so:


https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... -york.html


tell them to their faces that they are "antiSemitic"