LaxPower Back-Up Stick

Interesting that Salty would dismiss the Georgian law (and Russian laws) as merely similar to FARA.

They are not.

FARA involves organizations under the control of, or employed by to lobby on behalf of, a foreign power.
Not a 20% of funding, control. For purposes of influence of US Government policies.

A variety of types of organizations are exempted, charitable, religious, etc.

Most importantly, the registration does not imply anything illegal in such activity, only any attempt to do so surreptitiously is illegal...whereas we've see Russia turn this into an illegal act itself.

Georgia's PM, funded by Russia. is on that path, thus the demonstrations.

Next up, "history didn't start in 1991" and "Georgia deserved to be invaded as they didn't arm themselves sufficiently to stop it"...and "Nuland and Soros"

Eco-terrorizm.........or eco terrorists.......blew up a pipeline.

Biolabs....which the existance of is NEVER denied, even written about on the US state dept webthingy.....

Why are US funded "biolabs" in the Ukraine, in the first place.

I prefer Obama's quote about "buggy whips" when it comes to Russia and foreign policy.

The skiing at Davos sucked this year.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:38 am Interesting that Salty would dismiss the Georgian law (and Russian laws) as merely similar to FARA.

They are not.

FARA involves organizations under the control of, or employed by to lobby on behalf of, a foreign power.
Not a 20% of funding, control. For purposes of influence of US Government policies.

A variety of types of organizations are exempted, charitable, religious, etc.

Most importantly, the registration does not imply anything illegal in such activity, only any attempt to do so surreptitiously is illegal...whereas we've see Russia turn this into an illegal act itself.

Georgia's PM, funded by Russia. is on that path, thus the demonstrations.

Next up, "history didn't start in 1991" and "Georgia deserved to be invaded as they didn't arm themselves sufficiently to stop it"...and "Nuland and Soros"

Interesting that you would lay down a word-fog smoke screen.
They both require disclosure of foreign agents or organizations trying to influence policy.
You would think the US & EU would applaud such openness.

...a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine.

I wonder if that law would force the disclosure of a Soros funded NGO at work in Georgia.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:31 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:38 am Interesting that Salty would dismiss the Georgian law (and Russian laws) as merely similar to FARA.

They are not.

FARA involves organizations under the control of, or employed by to lobby on behalf of, a foreign power.
Not a 20% of funding, control. For purposes of influence of US Government policies.

A variety of types of organizations are exempted, charitable, religious, etc.

Most importantly, the registration does not imply anything illegal in such activity, only any attempt to do so surreptitiously is illegal...whereas we've see Russia turn this into an illegal act itself.

Georgia's PM, funded by Russia. is on that path, thus the demonstrations.

Next up, "history didn't start in 1991" and "Georgia deserved to be invaded as they didn't arm themselves sufficiently to stop it"...and "Nuland and Soros"

Interesting that you would lay down a word-fog smoke screen.
They both require disclosure of foreign agents or organizations trying to influence policy.
You would think the US & EU would applaud such openness.

...a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine.

I wonder if that law would force the disclosure of a Soros funded NGO at work in Georgia.

Nope, one (US) focuses on influence and requires control, the other (Georgia) only on economic interest at just 20%. Doesn't matter if there's any lobbying.

Do you know the approach in Russia?
I bet you do...

Is a registered foreign agent in Russia a respectable designation or is it a precursor to criminalization?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/01/rus ... ign-agents

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-off ... 43645.html

But pretty typical of Russian propagandists to try to conflate with FARA.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:31 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:38 am Interesting that Salty would dismiss the Georgian law (and Russian laws) as merely similar to FARA.

They are not.

FARA involves organizations under the control of, or employed by to lobby on behalf of, a foreign power.
Not a 20% of funding, control. For purposes of influence of US Government policies.

A variety of types of organizations are exempted, charitable, religious, etc.

Most importantly, the registration does not imply anything illegal in such activity, only any attempt to do so surreptitiously is illegal...whereas we've see Russia turn this into an illegal act itself.

Georgia's PM, funded by Russia. is on that path, thus the demonstrations.

Next up, "history didn't start in 1991" and "Georgia deserved to be invaded as they didn't arm themselves sufficiently to stop it"...and "Nuland and Soros"

Interesting that you would lay down a word-fog smoke screen.
They both require disclosure of foreign agents or organizations trying to influence policy.
You would think the US & EU would applaud such openness.

...a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine.

I wonder if that law would force the disclosure of a Soros funded NGO at work in Georgia.

Nope, one (US) focuses on influence and requires control, the other (Georgia) only on economic interest at just 20%. Doesn't matter if there's any lobbying.

Do you know the approach in Russia?
I bet you do...

Is a registered foreign agent in Russia a respectable designation or is it a precursor to criminalization?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/01/rus ... ign-agents

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-off ... 43645.html

But pretty typical of Russian propagandists to try to conflate with FARA.

Irrelevant distinctions without a difference in principle. Inconvenient transparency, highlighting foreign influence.

Over 20% funding of an NGO operating in the US by a Russian oligarch would not matter ? Should not be disclosed ?

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:31 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:38 am Interesting that Salty would dismiss the Georgian law (and Russian laws) as merely similar to FARA.

They are not.

FARA involves organizations under the control of, or employed by to lobby on behalf of, a foreign power.
Not a 20% of funding, control. For purposes of influence of US Government policies.

A variety of types of organizations are exempted, charitable, religious, etc.

Most importantly, the registration does not imply anything illegal in such activity, only any attempt to do so surreptitiously is illegal...whereas we've see Russia turn this into an illegal act itself.

Georgia's PM, funded by Russia. is on that path, thus the demonstrations.

Next up, "history didn't start in 1991" and "Georgia deserved to be invaded as they didn't arm themselves sufficiently to stop it"...and "Nuland and Soros"

Interesting that you would lay down a word-fog smoke screen.
They both require disclosure of foreign agents or organizations trying to influence policy.
You would think the US & EU would applaud such openness.

...a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine.

I wonder if that law would force the disclosure of a Soros funded NGO at work in Georgia.

Nope, one (US) focuses on influence and requires control, the other (Georgia) only on economic interest at just 20%. Doesn't matter if there's any lobbying.

Do you know the approach in Russia?
I bet you do...

Is a registered foreign agent in Russia a respectable designation or is it a precursor to criminalization?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/01/rus ... ign-agents

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-off ... 43645.html

But pretty typical of Russian propagandists to try to conflate with FARA.

Irrelevant distinctions without a difference in principle. Inconvenient transparency, highlighting foreign influence.

Over 20% funding of an NGO operating in the US by a Russian oligarch would not matter ? Should not be disclosed ?

Would it be registered as foreign agent in the US if it was not involved with government activities? Say feeding homeless people in Seattle? or operating a steel mill? or only if doing business with or lobbying government or government officials?

To be clear, I'm all for "transparency" of ownership and funding sources etc, but not for criminalizing it, punishing it.

Neat-o that you avoided what Russia does, and where Georgia's Russian funded government is heading. Typical for Russian propagandists.

Or useful idiots spreading such...

BTW, do you think Soros hides The Open Society's funding and activities???

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:17 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:31 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:38 am Interesting that Salty would dismiss the Georgian law (and Russian laws) as merely similar to FARA.

They are not.

FARA involves organizations under the control of, or employed by to lobby on behalf of, a foreign power.
Not a 20% of funding, control. For purposes of influence of US Government policies.

A variety of types of organizations are exempted, charitable, religious, etc.

Most importantly, the registration does not imply anything illegal in such activity, only any attempt to do so surreptitiously is illegal...whereas we've see Russia turn this into an illegal act itself.

Georgia's PM, funded by Russia. is on that path, thus the demonstrations.

Next up, "history didn't start in 1991" and "Georgia deserved to be invaded as they didn't arm themselves sufficiently to stop it"...and "Nuland and Soros"

Interesting that you would lay down a word-fog smoke screen.
They both require disclosure of foreign agents or organizations trying to influence policy.
You would think the US & EU would applaud such openness.

...a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine.

I wonder if that law would force the disclosure of a Soros funded NGO at work in Georgia.

Nope, one (US) focuses on influence and requires control, the other (Georgia) only on economic interest at just 20%. Doesn't matter if there's any lobbying.

Do you know the approach in Russia?
I bet you do...

Is a registered foreign agent in Russia a respectable designation or is it a precursor to criminalization?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/01/rus ... ign-agents

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-off ... 43645.html

But pretty typical of Russian propagandists to try to conflate with FARA.

Irrelevant distinctions without a difference in principle. Inconvenient transparency, highlighting foreign influence.

Over 20% funding of an NGO operating in the US by a Russian oligarch would not matter ? Should not be disclosed ?

Would it be registered as foreign agent in the US if it was not involved with government activities? Say feeding homeless people in Seattle? or operating a steel mill? or only if doing business with or lobbying government or government officials?

To be clear, I'm all for "transparency" of ownership and funding sources etc, but not for criminalizing it, punishing it.

Neat-o that you avoided what Russia does, and where Georgia's Russian funded government is heading. Typical for Russian propagandists.

Or useful idiots spreading such...

BTW, do you think Soros hides The Open Society's funding and activities???

Then why are the protesters still protesting ? They've vowed to continue protesting, even though the bill was not enacted.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:48 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:17 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:50 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:31 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:38 am Interesting that Salty would dismiss the Georgian law (and Russian laws) as merely similar to FARA.

They are not.

FARA involves organizations under the control of, or employed by to lobby on behalf of, a foreign power.
Not a 20% of funding, control. For purposes of influence of US Government policies.

A variety of types of organizations are exempted, charitable, religious, etc.

Most importantly, the registration does not imply anything illegal in such activity, only any attempt to do so surreptitiously is illegal...whereas we've see Russia turn this into an illegal act itself.

Georgia's PM, funded by Russia. is on that path, thus the demonstrations.

Next up, "history didn't start in 1991" and "Georgia deserved to be invaded as they didn't arm themselves sufficiently to stop it"...and "Nuland and Soros"

Interesting that you would lay down a word-fog smoke screen.
They both require disclosure of foreign agents or organizations trying to influence policy.
You would think the US & EU would applaud such openness.

...a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine.

I wonder if that law would force the disclosure of a Soros funded NGO at work in Georgia.

Nope, one (US) focuses on influence and requires control, the other (Georgia) only on economic interest at just 20%. Doesn't matter if there's any lobbying.

Do you know the approach in Russia?
I bet you do...

Is a registered foreign agent in Russia a respectable designation or is it a precursor to criminalization?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/12/01/rus ... ign-agents

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-signs-off ... 43645.html

But pretty typical of Russian propagandists to try to conflate with FARA.

Irrelevant distinctions without a difference in principle. Inconvenient transparency, highlighting foreign influence.

Over 20% funding of an NGO operating in the US by a Russian oligarch would not matter ? Should not be disclosed ?

Would it be registered as foreign agent in the US if it was not involved with government activities? Say feeding homeless people in Seattle? or operating a steel mill? or only if doing business with or lobbying government or government officials?

To be clear, I'm all for "transparency" of ownership and funding sources etc, but not for criminalizing it, punishing it.

Neat-o that you avoided what Russia does, and where Georgia's Russian funded government is heading. Typical for Russian propagandists.

Or useful idiots spreading such...

BTW, do you think Soros hides The Open Society's funding and activities???

Then why are the protesters still protesting ? They've vowed to continue protesting, even though the bill was not enacted.

Why do you think they are protesting?

Why do you think the Belorussian's protested in the millions after the "election" was one with an "80%" "vote"?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64899041

Pretty clear to me.

Or perhaps you agree with truth-teller Lavrov that it's a western sponsored "coup" designed to create "tension" on Russia's border?

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2023 ... ing-unrest

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:52 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64899041

Pretty clear to me.

Or perhaps you agree with truth-teller Lavrov that it's a western sponsored "coup" designed to create "tension" on Russia's border?

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2023 ... ing-unrest

So what should we do about it ? Foment revolution & regime change in Belarus & Georgia (again) ?
It's worked out so well in Ukraine. How about we fix Mexico first ?

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:29 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:52 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64899041

Pretty clear to me.

Or perhaps you agree with truth-teller Lavrov that it's a western sponsored "coup" designed to create "tension" on Russia's border?

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2023 ... ing-unrest

So what should we do about it ? Foment revolution & regime change in Belarus & Georgia (again) ?
It's worked out so well in Ukraine. How about we fix Mexico first ?

Ahh, so you do buy into the Russian propaganda that it's the US and West that are to blame for Georgian's desire for freedom, escaping the heel of the Russian boot?

And of course those millions in the street after the faux election in Belarus were there because the US and West "fomented" protest...

Russia is using the fight for the city of Bakhmut as a way to heavily weaken a mercenary force that once boosted its army but has become increasingly critical of its military leadership, according to the Washington DC-based Institute for the Study of War, or ISW.

The battle for the eastern Ukrainian city has become one of the bloodiest since Russia's invasion began. And the Wagner Group, which has tens of thousands of mercenaries and former prisoners deployed in Ukraine, is heavily involved in the fighting.

In an update on Sunday, the ISW said that Russia's defense ministry is likely using the battle to significantly reduce the Wagner Group, as a feud between them escalates.

Yevgeny Prigozhin, the group's leader, who is also known as Putin's chef, has become highly critical of Russia's military leadership.

And the ISW said that Russia's leadership "is likely seizing the opportunity to deliberately expend both elite and convict Wagner forces in Bakhmut in an effort to weaken Prigozhin and derail his ambitions for greater influence in the Kremlin."

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-using-one ... 15810.html

DocBarrister

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:35 am

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:29 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:52 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64899041

Pretty clear to me.

Or perhaps you agree with truth-teller Lavrov that it's a western sponsored "coup" designed to create "tension" on Russia's border?

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2023 ... ing-unrest

So what should we do about it ? Foment revolution & regime change in Belarus & Georgia (again) ?
It's worked out so well in Ukraine. How about we fix Mexico first ?

Ahh, so you do buy into the Russian propaganda that it's the US and West that are to blame for Georgian's desire for freedom, escaping the heel of the Russian boot?

And of course those millions in the street after the faux election in Belarus were there because the US and West "fomented" protest...

No. I buy into the notion that it's none of our business & is not in our long term interest to foment unrest, revolution & regime change in former Soviet Republics, which have no significant national history, that were integral parts of Russia for most of modern history before that.
We dismember Mother Russia at our own peril when we have more critical strategic interests elsewhere. We're making bad situations worse.
If the EU wants to create new members, they can send their forces to the front & ours should deploy elsewhere.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:55 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:35 am

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:29 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:52 pm https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64899041

Pretty clear to me.

Or perhaps you agree with truth-teller Lavrov that it's a western sponsored "coup" designed to create "tension" on Russia's border?

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2023 ... ing-unrest

So what should we do about it ? Foment revolution & regime change in Belarus & Georgia (again) ?
It's worked out so well in Ukraine. How about we fix Mexico first ?

Ahh, so you do buy into the Russian propaganda that it's the US and West that are to blame for Georgian's desire for freedom, escaping the heel of the Russian boot?

And of course those millions in the street after the faux election in Belarus were there because the US and West "fomented" protest...

No. I buy into the notion that it's none of our business & is not in our long term interest to foment unrest, revolution & regime change in former Soviet Republics, which have no significant national history, that were integral parts of Russia for most of modern history before that.
We dismember Mother Russia at our own peril when we have more critical strategic interests elsewhere. We're making bad situations worse.
If the EU wants to create new members, they can send their forces to the front & ours should deploy elsewhere.

America First.

I'd say that I basically agree as to "we" shouldn't foment unrest, revolution & regime change" anywhere, but I fully reject the nonsense of "Mother Russia" as if that means that these countries, which are internationally recognized as sovereign nations, have no right to self-determination, including the freedom to live without authoritarian oppression simply because at one time they had been conquered by stronger neighbors.

But I don't think the US government should be trying to create unrest where it does not exist, where these desires for freedom do not exist...but I don't buy that they don't exist in these regions...millions of people aren't showing up in the streets because of the US or anyone else "fomenting".

On the other hand, I fully support the mission of Radio Free etc to be sure that people who otherwise have state dominated media have an opportunity to learn how others beyond their state's control think about world events.

And when peoples express their desire for freedom and democracy over oppression and authoritarianism I think it's very much in the US interest to 'support' these movements.

I also would separate the activities of the US government and those of private individuals and organizations like The Open Society.

But back to the real problem here, you actually side with the "Mother Russia" argument that Russia should control all of those peoples and lands, with an iron authoritarian fist.

How do you feel about China's claim that it should control all of its neighbors...and perhaps beyond, where any of its peoples reside? Much of those regions and countries were once controlled by mainland China...at least according to their interpretation of history.

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:44 pm Russia is using the fight for the city of Bakhmut as a way to heavily weaken a mercenary force that once boosted its army but has become increasingly critical of its military leadership, according to the Washington DC-based Institute for the Study of War, or ISW.

The battle for the eastern Ukrainian city has become one of the bloodiest since Russia's invasion began. And the Wagner Group, which has tens of thousands of mercenaries and former prisoners deployed in Ukraine, is heavily involved in the fighting.

In an update on Sunday, the ISW said that Russia's defense ministry is likely using the battle to significantly reduce the Wagner Group, as a feud between them escalates.

Yevgeny Prigozhin, the group's leader, who is also known as Putin's chef, has become highly critical of Russia's military leadership.

And the ISW said that Russia's leadership "is likely seizing the opportunity to deliberately expend both elite and convict Wagner forces in Bakhmut in an effort to weaken Prigozhin and derail his ambitions for greater influence in the Kremlin."

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-using-one ... 15810.html

DocBarrister

While Prigozhin has certainly complained bitterly, this feels a little bit to me like it could be US/Ukrainian misinformation designed to exacerbate divisions in Russia. Take some truth and exaggerate it for effect.

On the other hand, the Russians are indeed a mess, so maybe it's accurate that there's a desire to diminish Prighozhin's potential ambitions by having him burn through his human resources and munitions, but that's a risky strategy as should Wagner Group succeed in taking Bakhmut, it could be an enormous boost to their credibility and popularity and make it easier to attract recruits...which appears to have grown increasingly difficult.

It certainly looked like they were going to overwhelm the Ukrainian there with sheer scale of repeated assaults, and certainly it has cost the Ukrainians dearly as well, but the massive losses for the Russians are pretty staggering.

If Wagner fails, and the assail by Ukraine comes later this spring well armed, tanks, precision artillery, etc, does the regular army turn tail? If I understand correctly they are not led well, are very hierarchical, yet not nearly as viciously brutal in demanding their soldiers fight...

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:55 pm No. I buy into the notion that it's none of our business & is not in our long term interest to foment unrest, revolution & regime change in former Soviet Republics, which have no significant national history, that were integral parts of Russia for most of modern history before that.
We dismember Mother Russia at our own peril when we have more critical strategic interests elsewhere. We're making bad situations worse.
If the EU wants to create new members, they can send their forces to the front & ours should deploy elsewhere.

A message you should have sent to the Neo-Cons through the late 80's and 90's. Every war/foment/regimegames----100% of them----were PRECISELY what you're describing: none of our business & not in our long term interest to foment unrest, revolution & regime change in countries that we don't have treaties with.....

I was called naive for believing this.

You were trained in, nurtured by, and voted for.....the above line of thinking.

It's zero accident that all the people making these decisions are all in the 70's to early 80's. Biden. McConnell. Putin. All of them trained in, nurtured by, an voted for....the above line of thinking.

Good luck changing their minds.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:29 pm How do you feel about China's claim that it should control all of its neighbors...and perhaps beyond, where any of its peoples reside? Much of those regions and countries were once controlled by mainland China...at least according to their interpretation of history.

You mean like Taiwan & our one China policy ?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:29 pm But back to the real problem here, you actually side with the "Mother Russia" argument that Russia should control all of those peoples and lands, with an iron authoritarian fist.

No. I just don't see a strategic imperative that we get involved to prevent it. Abstain -- like most of the rest of the nations of the world do. Sure jawbone, but don't put govt people on the ground (like Nuland in Ukraine) to fan the flames.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:29 pm How do you feel about China's claim that it should control all of its neighbors...and perhaps beyond, where any of its peoples reside? Much of those regions and countries were once controlled by mainland China...at least according to their interpretation of history.

You mean like Taiwan & our one China policy ?

Not just Taiwan, most of Southeast Asia, Korea, Japan.
All subject to similar "historical" claims.
Just like Tibet, Mongolia, etc.