old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
The war's not over. You don't know what China might do. Don't celebrate before you're in the end zone.
Please read what I wrote again. Xi was contemplating sending these arms clandestinely.......where he could play the petty Charlie Wilson game, and then play dumb and delay Biden's retaliation against China for doing this.
Biden outed these deliberations, and eliminated this choice. So now this changes Xi's calculus. Xi now has to do this overtly, after being warned not to do that by their biggest trading partner.
Come on, man. This is a big deal. Biden stopped a clandestine move.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
China has proposed a peace plan. If China threatens to supply Russia, they might want the world to know that the war won't be ending soon, hoping Ukraine's allies push them to the negotiating table, creating a potential off ramp acceptable to their ally Putin.
And if they do that, the US will punish them via trade. How bad does Xi want to arm Russia? That's the question now.
THAT will prolong the war. Something you're against.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
It would show the rest of the world that has not backed Ukraine that they can stand up to the US as they point out the hypocrisy of the US supplying their ally.
Hypocrisy? What's China's first point in their peace plan? Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. There's no hypocrisy here, even according to the Chinese.
I'm not claiming hypocrisy. The Chinese are. It's useful propaganda for them.
Show me your sources that China only intended to do it covertly.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
It would show the rest of the world that has not backed Ukraine that they can stand up to the US as they point out the hypocrisy of the US supplying their ally.
China's already using it.
India is no friend of China. They could be a huge help to Ukraine if they'd sell them their Soviet legacy weapons & munitions.
...but they're not.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
The war's not over. You don't know what China might do. Don't celebrate before you're in the end zone.
Please read what I wrote again. Xi was contemplating sending these arms clandestinely.......where he could play the petty Charlie Wilson game, and then play dumb and delay Biden's retaliation against China for doing this.
Biden outed these deliberations, and eliminated this choice. So now this changes Xi's calculus. Xi now has to do this overtly, after being warned not to do that by their biggest trading partner.
Come on, man. This is a big deal. Biden stopped a clandestine move.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
China has proposed a peace plan. If China threatens to supply Russia, they might want the world to know that the war won't be ending soon, hoping Ukraine's allies push them to the negotiating table, creating a potential off ramp acceptable to their ally Putin.
And if they do that, the US will punish them via trade. How bad does Xi want to arm Russia? That's the question now.
THAT will prolong the war. Something you're against.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
It would show the rest of the world that has not backed Ukraine that they can stand up to the US as they point out the hypocrisy of the US supplying their ally.
Hypocrisy? What's China's first point in their peace plan? Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. There's no hypocrisy here, even according to the Chinese.
I'm not claiming hypocrisy. The Chinese are. It's useful propaganda for them.
Show me your sources that China only intended to do it covertly.
I didn't say ONLY intended to do it covertly.
I said one, and only one, tool in the drawer has been removed for Russia to get arms from China. Yes, China can still do it. But if they do, they have to be willing to pay a price with their trading partner, the US.
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
The war's not over. You don't know what China might do. Don't celebrate before you're in the end zone.
Please read what I wrote again. Xi was contemplating sending these arms clandestinely.......where he could play the petty Charlie Wilson game, and then play dumb and delay Biden's retaliation against China for doing this.
Biden outed these deliberations, and eliminated this choice. So now this changes Xi's calculus. Xi now has to do this overtly, after being warned not to do that by their biggest trading partner.
Come on, man. This is a big deal. Biden stopped a clandestine move.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
China has proposed a peace plan. If China threatens to supply Russia, they might want the world to know that the war won't be ending soon, hoping Ukraine's allies push them to the negotiating table, creating a potential off ramp acceptable to their ally Putin.
And if they do that, the US will punish them via trade. How bad does Xi want to arm Russia? That's the question now.
THAT will prolong the war. Something you're against.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
It would show the rest of the world that has not backed Ukraine that they can stand up to the US as they point out the hypocrisy of the US supplying their ally.
Hypocrisy? What's China's first point in their peace plan? Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. There's no hypocrisy here, even according to the Chinese.
I'm not claiming hypocrisy. The Chinese are. It's useful propaganda for them.
Show me your sources that China only intended to do it covertly.
Almost as bad as you claiming not wearing your MAGA hat.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:59 pm
by old salt
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
You're assuming what China was going to do & don't know yet what they might still do.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
The war's not over. You don't know what China might do. Don't celebrate before you're in the end zone.
Please read what I wrote again. Xi was contemplating sending these arms clandestinely.......where he could play the petty Charlie Wilson game, and then play dumb and delay Biden's retaliation against China for doing this.
Biden outed these deliberations, and eliminated this choice. So now this changes Xi's calculus. Xi now has to do this overtly, after being warned not to do that by their biggest trading partner.
Come on, man. This is a big deal. Biden stopped a clandestine move.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
China has proposed a peace plan. If China threatens to supply Russia, they might want the world to know that the war won't be ending soon, hoping Ukraine's allies push them to the negotiating table, creating a potential off ramp acceptable to their ally Putin.
And if they do that, the US will punish them via trade. How bad does Xi want to arm Russia? That's the question now.
THAT will prolong the war. Something you're against.
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:48 pm
It would show the rest of the world that has not backed Ukraine that they can stand up to the US as they point out the hypocrisy of the US supplying their ally.
Hypocrisy? What's China's first point in their peace plan? Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. There's no hypocrisy here, even according to the Chinese.
I'm not claiming hypocrisy. The Chinese are. It's useful propaganda for them.
Show me your sources that China only intended to do it covertly.
Almost as bad as you claiming not wearing your MAGA hat.
I don't understand how so many people can continually pick fights over spilled milk. When I read most all his posts, they appear as genuine concern for the immediate, with discernment about the future in all things US and globally, based on wisdom of immersion through years in the military.
I suppose, what it really says, is that you each actually respect the hell out of what he is posting, but push back in order get inside his head and learn more.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:26 pm
by Farfromgeneva
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:22 pm
I don't understand how so many people can continually pick fights over spilled milk. When I read most all his posts, they appear as genuine concern for the immediate, with discernment about the future in all things US and globally, based on wisdom of immersion through years in the military.
I suppose, what it really says, is that you each actually respect the hell out of what he is posting, but push back in order get inside his head and learn more.
Suppose something else - Even your devils advocate is losing to the Angel despite the girl sitting there passed out on this one.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
You don't agree? Ok. That's fine.
Certainly it cannot be a major accomplishment because it's Biden's idea and OS can't be having Uncle Joe be good at ANYTHING you know.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
You don't agree? Ok. That's fine.
I hope that subsequent events prove that you were prescient on this.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
You don't agree? Ok. That's fine.
Certainly it cannot be a major accomplishment because it's Biden's idea and OS can't be having Uncle Joe be good at ANYTHING you know.
Uncle Joe's doing a great job of prolonging this proxy war. I hope we have some of the good stuff left for Taiwan.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
You don't agree? Ok. That's fine.
Certainly it cannot be a major accomplishment because it's Biden's idea and OS can't be having Uncle Joe be good at ANYTHING you know.
Uncle Joe's doing a great job of prolonging this proxy war. I hope we have some of the good stuff left for Taiwan.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
You don't agree? Ok. That's fine.
Certainly it cannot be a major accomplishment because it's Biden's idea and OS can't be having Uncle Joe be good at ANYTHING you know.
Uncle Joe's doing a great job of prolonging this proxy war. I hope we have some of the good stuff left for Taiwan.
Putin ain’t too shabby either.
Don't worry. He'll run out of ammo eventually. Might not be much left of Ukraine by then.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
You don't agree? Ok. That's fine.
Certainly it cannot be a major accomplishment because it's Biden's idea and OS can't be having Uncle Joe be good at ANYTHING you know.
Uncle Joe's doing a great job of prolonging this proxy war. I hope we have some of the good stuff left for Taiwan.
Putin ain’t too shabby either.
Don't worry. He'll run out of ammo eventually. Might not be much left of Ukraine by then.
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:47 pm
Why are you working so feverishly to pretend this isn't a major accomplishment? China could have already pulled the trigger on this----and Biden shut that down.
Because I don't see it as such. Why are you working so feverishly to hype it into a major accomplishment ?
Simple. I don't want this war to last any longer than it has to.
Biden showing the intel we have on China is a clever thing to do, and took away a tool from our enemy, AND kept the war from being prolonged in the present. These are good things.
You don't agree? Ok. That's fine.
I hope that subsequent events prove that you were prescient on this.
I don't understand this response. China cannot----cannot-----provide ammo to Russia clandestinely. Score one for US intel, and one for Biden.
That option is gone. Dead. Right now. No crystal ball needed.
The question that DOES remain is: will China do it overtly. That's it. For that? I have no idea, but my guess is that odds that Xi will do that are low.
To much risk, very little reward.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:29 pm
by old salt
More fun & games in the Black Sea region. They're rioting in the streets of Tiblisi, Georgia over a law their elected Parliament passed that is not pro-EU enough to please the wannabe EUro protesters. Sound familiar ? Zelensky made a video appearance supporting the protesters.
Wonder what color they'll call this revolution & regime change ? Launch Toria Nuland with sandwiches. Next stop Minsk.
Soros NGO, Sam Powers, seems like old times. https://mobile.twitter.com/Starboy2079/ ... 8571341825
The law sounds a lot like FARA in the US. These EUro rivalries are good fun. They make for such interesting wars.
The Background on the Protests in Georgia
Demonstrators worry that Georgia is reneging on commitments to foster closer ties with Europe and moving toward closer ties with Russia.
March 8, 2023
Riot police officers in Georgia violently broke up a rally in the capital, Tbilisi, on Tuesday as thousands of demonstrators protested legislation against “foreign agents” that they said represented the latest anti-democratic, pro-Russia move in the country.
The events in the former Soviet republic have also attracted attention because of Georgia’s history as the first country that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia invaded, in 2008. Despite losing a chunk of its territory to Moscow in that conflict, Georgia’s government has increasingly tilted toward Russia and away from the West.
Here is some background on Georgia and the demonstrations.
The protests focus on a proposed law surrounding ‘foreign agents.’
Lawmakers this week gave initial support to a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine. The protesters say they fear it would harm the country’s chances of joining the European Union.
The protesters note that a similar law in Russia has been used to stifle freedom of expression by cracking down on rights groups and other independent organizations.
More broadly, the demonstrations are an expression of concern that Georgia is moving down an authoritarian path and reneging on commitments to foster closer ties with Europe. On Wednesday, as hundreds of protesters blocked the main avenue of the capital, Tbilisi, some chanted: “No to the Russian law.”
Deteriorating ties with Europe run counter to Georgians’ support for E.U. membership.
Many Georgians view joining the European Union as vital to boost trade, entrench good governance and lock in democratic structures that would offer a bulwark against the influence of Russia, its northern neighbor. More than three-quarters of Georgians support a “pro-Western” foreign policy, according to a poll conducted last summer.
Georgia applied for E.U. membership in March last year, one week after Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine. But last June, the bloc declined to grant Georgia candidate status, while approving the candidacies of Ukraine and Moldova. One analysis said the decision was a sign of Georgia’s “notable democratic backsliding.”
President Salome Zourabichvili, who has said she would veto the law on foreign agents, occupies a largely ceremonial role. Executive power lies with the prime minister, Irakli Garibashvili, whose Dream party has appeared increasingly hostile toward civil society, Europe and the United States.
The party was founded by a billionaire former prime minister, Bidzina Ivanishvili, who made his fortune in Russia and is widely believed to retain the support of the Kremlin. Its leaders have accused U.S. and European officials of interfering in Georgia’s judiciary and lashed out at Western diplomats who have called for political reforms.
There are parallels between Georgia’s and Ukraine’s experiences with Russia.
Georgia, a country of around 3.7 million people in the South Caucasus, gained independence in 1991.
In 2008, using a similar pretext as the one Moscow used to invade Ukraine, the Kremlin sent Russian forces into Georgia to support two secessionist territories, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which Moscow subsequently recognized as independent states. Russian troops still protect the two regions, giving Moscow de facto control over around 20 percent of Georgia’s territory.
“Russia’s wars in Georgia and Ukraine seem part of a single imperial project,” according to the European Council on Foreign Relations. Many Georgians also draw parallels, and argue that had the United States and other nations responded more forcefully in 2008, it might have deterred the Kremlin from invading Ukraine in 2014 and 2022.
Georgia’s relations with Ukraine have also been strained.
Georgia initially condemned the Russian invasion last year and sent humanitarian aid to Ukraine, in a sign of the traditional solidarity between two ex-Soviet republics. But it has declined to join in Western sanctions against Russia. After the government barred a chartered plane from landing in Georgia to transport volunteer fighters to Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine railed against Georgia’s “immoral position.”
Last month, Mr. Zelensky accused the Georgian government of trying to kill its imprisoned former president, Mikheil Saakashvili, who is now a Ukrainian citizen. Mr. Saakashvili, who led Georgia during the 2008 Russian invasion, had sought to move the country out of Moscow’s orbit and closer to the West, pushing for NATO and E.U. membership, and infuriating Mr. Putin.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:50 am
by PizzaSnake
old salt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:29 pm
More fun & games in the Black Sea region. They're rioting in the streets of Tiblisi, Georgia over a law their elected Parliament passed that is not pro-EU enough to please the wannabe EUro protesters. Sound familiar ? Zelensky made a video appearance supporting the protesters.
Wonder what color they'll call this revolution & regime change ? Launch Toria Nuland with sandwiches. Next stop Minsk.
Soros NGO, Sam Powers, seems like old times. https://mobile.twitter.com/Starboy2079/ ... 8571341825
The law sounds a lot like FARA in the US. These EUro rivalries are good fun. They make for such interesting wars.
The Background on the Protests in Georgia
Demonstrators worry that Georgia is reneging on commitments to foster closer ties with Europe and moving toward closer ties with Russia.
March 8, 2023
Riot police officers in Georgia violently broke up a rally in the capital, Tbilisi, on Tuesday as thousands of demonstrators protested legislation against “foreign agents” that they said represented the latest anti-democratic, pro-Russia move in the country.
The events in the former Soviet republic have also attracted attention because of Georgia’s history as the first country that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia invaded, in 2008. Despite losing a chunk of its territory to Moscow in that conflict, Georgia’s government has increasingly tilted toward Russia and away from the West.
Here is some background on Georgia and the demonstrations.
The protests focus on a proposed law surrounding ‘foreign agents.’
Lawmakers this week gave initial support to a draft law that would require any organization that receives more than 20 percent of its funding from overseas to register as a foreign agent or risk a hefty fine. The protesters say they fear it would harm the country’s chances of joining the European Union.
The protesters note that a similar law in Russia has been used to stifle freedom of expression by cracking down on rights groups and other independent organizations.
More broadly, the demonstrations are an expression of concern that Georgia is moving down an authoritarian path and reneging on commitments to foster closer ties with Europe. On Wednesday, as hundreds of protesters blocked the main avenue of the capital, Tbilisi, some chanted: “No to the Russian law.”
Deteriorating ties with Europe run counter to Georgians’ support for E.U. membership.
Many Georgians view joining the European Union as vital to boost trade, entrench good governance and lock in democratic structures that would offer a bulwark against the influence of Russia, its northern neighbor. More than three-quarters of Georgians support a “pro-Western” foreign policy, according to a poll conducted last summer.
Georgia applied for E.U. membership in March last year, one week after Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine. But last June, the bloc declined to grant Georgia candidate status, while approving the candidacies of Ukraine and Moldova. One analysis said the decision was a sign of Georgia’s “notable democratic backsliding.”
President Salome Zourabichvili, who has said she would veto the law on foreign agents, occupies a largely ceremonial role. Executive power lies with the prime minister, Irakli Garibashvili, whose Dream party has appeared increasingly hostile toward civil society, Europe and the United States.
The party was founded by a billionaire former prime minister, Bidzina Ivanishvili, who made his fortune in Russia and is widely believed to retain the support of the Kremlin. Its leaders have accused U.S. and European officials of interfering in Georgia’s judiciary and lashed out at Western diplomats who have called for political reforms.
There are parallels between Georgia’s and Ukraine’s experiences with Russia.
Georgia, a country of around 3.7 million people in the South Caucasus, gained independence in 1991.
In 2008, using a similar pretext as the one Moscow used to invade Ukraine, the Kremlin sent Russian forces into Georgia to support two secessionist territories, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which Moscow subsequently recognized as independent states. Russian troops still protect the two regions, giving Moscow de facto control over around 20 percent of Georgia’s territory.
“Russia’s wars in Georgia and Ukraine seem part of a single imperial project,” according to the European Council on Foreign Relations. Many Georgians also draw parallels, and argue that had the United States and other nations responded more forcefully in 2008, it might have deterred the Kremlin from invading Ukraine in 2014 and 2022.
Georgia’s relations with Ukraine have also been strained.
Georgia initially condemned the Russian invasion last year and sent humanitarian aid to Ukraine, in a sign of the traditional solidarity between two ex-Soviet republics. But it has declined to join in Western sanctions against Russia. After the government barred a chartered plane from landing in Georgia to transport volunteer fighters to Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine railed against Georgia’s “immoral position.”
Last month, Mr. Zelensky accused the Georgian government of trying to kill its imprisoned former president, Mikheil Saakashvili, who is now a Ukrainian citizen. Mr. Saakashvili, who led Georgia during the 2008 Russian invasion, had sought to move the country out of Moscow’s orbit and closer to the West, pushing for NATO and E.U. membership, and infuriating Mr. Putin.
You? Commenting on a piece of legislation labeled "foreign agents"? Good one. Bonus points for chutzpah!!
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:51 am
by CU88
A report out of Czechia (also known as the Czech Republic) suggests that Russian claims to have taken out Ukrainian military equipment may literally be inflated.
The Czech company Inflatech recently told local media in the country that it believes more than a third of the HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket System) units claimed to have been destroyed by Russian forces were actually inflatable decoys produced by the company.
