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Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:54 pm
by Brooklyn
Matnum PI wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:34 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:08 pm Antisemitism - peace.

How does all this square with: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/10/09 ... ppression/

The writer blames Israel and it's Apartheid that is the cause. I see it that way as well. All those progressives Jews who advocated for Palestinian causes that I knew in NY all wanted Peace. Not one was ever a Jew hater.
I don't know how to reply to this except to say, It's simply not true. To say that the Israelis are like the bigoted South African whites while Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians are like the blacks in South Africa is... It's just nonsensical. I don't even know where to start. For starters, the arabs wanted to wipe the Jews off the map well before Israel had even created a state. By definition, there was zero "apartheid" and still, the arabs were going to war with the Jews. That was not apartheid. That was antisemitism. Lest we forget, during WW2, these same people wanted to partner with Hitler because they had shared enemies: communists, English, and the Jews. (Hitler had no use for them so he moved on.) The apartheid narrative plays well for some, especially emotionally. But it simply isn't true.

As for progressive Jews who advocate for Palestine, I agree, it's a strange thing. And I believe that they want Peace. But they know not of what they speak. These are NY Jews. They may even be NY Jews who have traveled to Israel. And I'll challenge any of those NY Jews to walk into innumerable Palestinian areas. Not quickly in-and-out with a Palestinian tour guide who knows where to go to avoid being kidnapped. Just walk into one of these areas like Palestinians do in Israel. Without being kidnapped. Without being beaten, spit on, etc. And we can go full circle and say, Yes! But they do this because the Jews are oppressors! and... I just don't know what to say. (For the record, if an arab walks through any area of Israel, and they do, they will not be kidnapped, beaten, spit on, etc. If they put down a backpack and walk away from it, there'll be a reaction but that is very different from bigotry. Especially in Israel.) No intellectual honest person can look at the history of the arabs, well before the state of Israel through today and say, *That* is the reason why the arabs hate the Jews. There is no *that*. The only *that* that makes even a modicum of sense is pure unadultered antisemitism. And, sadly, without their even knowing it, many, many of these NY Jews, especially the assimilated Jews, are horribly antisemitic. Horribly.


~ nonsensical ~

Did you read the link? Did you read my previous reference to Human Rights Watch? Both say it is Apartheid and back it up with proof.



~ arabs wanted to wipe the Jews off the map well before Israel had even created a state ~

Muslims have always been accused of that. So why did they save the sorry asses of Jews (including my own ancestors) in Spain both before and during the Inquisition? Why did Muslims tribesmen save Jews in the Caucasus when Hitler sent in troops? Why did Albanians save other Jews when Hitler invaded? It is a fact that Muslim Albania is the only European country that saved its Jews during the 1940s. Historically Jews (called the People of the Book throughout the Koran) always thrived in Muslim lands. When the Russian Czar began horrendous pogroms which persecute and killed Jews by the thousands, who were the only people to welcome exiled Jews? It was Palestinians who welcomed about 90,000 exiles.

Millions of Jews are alive today because it was Muslims who saved them from intolerant and genocidal Christians.

What did these Muslims get in return? Genocide and persecution. See my earlier posts for proof. To say that NYC Jewish progressives, or the Jewish Voice for Peace, or that Albert Einstein and that roster of scholarly Jewish liberals are/were anti Semitic is the greatest lunacy I have ever seen.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:01 am
by NattyBohChamps04
Brooklyn wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:54 pm "something"

Hamas constitution literally wants to wipe out Israel.

Romans wanted to kill Jews

Egyptians wanted to kill Jews

Jews wanted to kill Christians

Christans wanted to kill Jews

Jews wanted to kill Jews

Christians wanted to kill Christians

Christans wanted to kill Muslims

Muslims wanted to kill Muslims

Muslims wanted to kill Jews

Muslims wanted to kill Christians

X wanted to kill X.

Welcome to modernity. You're right sometimes. You bloviate sometimes. You're wrong sometimes. Get off your high horse because you're casting stones at glass houses my dude.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:06 am
by Brooklyn
^ kindly provide a translation

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:22 am
by NattyBohChamps04
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:06 am ^ kindly provide a translation
No. Why?

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am
by old salt
QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Iran ‘broadly complicit’ in supporting Palestinian militants, but no evidence seen of a direct role in slaughter, officials say
By Joby Warrick, Ellen Nakashima, Shane Harris and Souad Mekhennet, October 9, 2023

Iranians carry pictures of slain Revolutionary Guard commander Qasem Soleimani as they attend a gathering in Tehran on Saturday to express their solidarity with Palestinians after Hamas militants launched a deadly assault into Israel from the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinian militants behind the surprise weekend attack on Israel began planning the assault at least a year ago, with key support from Iranian allies who provided military training and logistical help as well as tens of millions of dollars for weapons, current and former Western and Middle Eastern intelligence officials said Monday.

While Iran’s precise role in Saturday’s violence remained unclear, the officials said, the assault reflected Tehran’s years-long ambition to surround Israel with legions of paramilitary fighters armed with increasingly sophisticated weapons systems capable of striking deep inside the Jewish state.

Hamas, the Gaza-based Palestinian militant organization that led the attack, has historically maintained a degree of independence from Tehran compared with true Iranian proxy groups such as the Lebanese-based Hezbollah. But in recent years, Hamas has benefited from massive infusions of Iranian cash as well as technical help for manufacturing rockets and drones with advanced guidance systems, in addition to training in military tactics — some of which occurred in camps outside Gaza, the officials said.

U.S. and Israeli officials said they have no firm evidence so far that Iran authorized or directly coordinated the attack that killed more than 900 Israelis and wounded thousands. But current and former intelligence officials said the assault bore hallmarks of Iranian support, and noted officials in Tehran have boasted publicly about the huge sums in military aid provided to Hamas in recent years.

“If you train people on how to use weapons, you expect them to eventually use them,” said a Western intelligence official who, like others interviewed, requested that his name and nationality be withheld to freely discuss the rapidly unfolding events in southern Israel. The official, and a second Western analyst with access to sensitive intelligence, said the analysis conducted in the wake of the attack pointed to many months of preparation by Hamas, beginning at least as early as mid-2022.

In interviews, more than a dozen intelligence analysts and military experts expressed astonishment at the stealth and sophistication of the Hamas assault, which involved coordinated raids across the Israeli border by hundreds of gunmen traveling by land, sea and air — including motorized paragliders. The ground offensive was accompanied by swarms of rockets and drones that began streaking across the border early Saturday, hitting targets with a degree of precision not seen in previous Hamas attacks. While the Palestinian group has a capable militia and indigenous assembly lines for rockets and drones, an attack of Saturday’s scale would have been extremely challenging without considerable outside help, analysts said.

Israel’s military announced Tuesday that it is “moving into the offensive” after securing the country’s border with Gaza. As the death toll rises on both sides

“The amount of training, logistics, communication, personnel, and weapons required provides a massive footprint,” said Marc Polymeropoulos, a former CIA senior operations officer who served in counterterrorism roles in the Middle East. “This suggests both Iranian involvement, given the complexity of the attack, and highlights the colossal intelligence failure.” The use of paragliders — reminiscent of a spectacular 1987 attack by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Israel that killed several soldiers — “surely required training outside of Gaza,” Polymeropoulos said.

Jonathan Finer, the White House’s deputy national security adviser, said in an interview with CBS News: “What I can say without a doubt is that Iran is broadly complicit in these attacks. Iran has been Hamas’s primary backer for decades. They have provided them weapons. They have provided them training. They have provided them financial support. And so, in terms of broad complicity, we are very clear about a role for Iran.”

Iran denied a direct role in Saturday’s attack, while also praising the Hamas militants who carried it out. “We are not involved in Palestine’s response, as it is taken solely by Palestine itself,” Tehran’s mission to the United Nations said in a statement released Monday. But other Iranian officials publicly celebrated the attack while highlighting their close relationship with Hamas.

“You really made the Islamic Ummah happy with this innovative and victorious operation,” Iran’s official news agency, IRNA, quoted President Ebrahim Raisi as saying, using the Arabic word for the wider Muslim community.

The leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, acknowledged in an interview last year that his group received $70 million in military assistance from Iran. According to a State Department report from 2020, Iran provides about $100 million annually to Palestinian terrorist groups, including Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.

Current and former intelligence officials confirmed that Iran had provided technical help to Hamas in manufacturing the more than 4,000 rockets and armed drones launched into Israel since Saturday. At least some Hamas militants also have undergone training in advanced military tactics, including at Lebanese camps staffed by technical advisers from Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Hezbollah, the officials said.

The Hamas militants who received training were likely elite officers who passed along skills to other fighters inside Gaza itself, said Michael Knights, an expert on Iranian-backed militia groups and founder of the Militia Spotlight blog.

“It’s a ‘train the trainer’ approach,” Knights said. “You don’t have to do a lot to train someone to be capable of operating a drone system, which is not complicated stuff anymore.” On the other hand, he said, the combined-arms breaching capability exhibited during Saturday’s assault “clearly was practiced and carefully planned somewhere. A whole bunch of fortified positions fell to sophisticated combined arms-breaching attacks. And you don’t just wing that.”

For years, Iran’s principal militia ally in Gaza was a different group: Palestinian Islamic Jihad. But gradually Tehran began bolstering its ties with Hamas leaders and increasing its support, said Ray Takeyh, senior fellow for Middle East Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

“That relationship has deepened in the past few years,” Takeyh said. “It’s financial, political, at some level operational.”

Michael Eisenstadt, director of the Washington Institute’s Military and Security Studies Program, said that the relationship with Iran developed as a result of the Oslo peace process in the early 1990s when Tehran was looking for ways to scuttle efforts to forge a peace deal between the Palestinians and Israel. That was when Iran first provided the know-how for the explosive belts used by Palestinian suicide bombers.

The suicide bombing campaigns by both Hamas and Islamic Jihad had a “significant impact” on the peace process, he said. Hamas launched its first homemade rocket, the Qassam, in 2001 during the second intifada. But it was very rudimentary, using pipes and a homemade fuel mixture derived from sugar and other common components.

“Iran over the years has provided a lot of assistance to Hamas in terms of rocket capability,” Eisenstadt said. “The signature weapon of Iran proxies are rockets, and increasingly missiles. You see that everywhere — with Iraq, Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah. That’s very much inspired by Iranian example and advice.”

But other analysts stressed Hamas’s record as an independent actor, capable of carrying out sophisticated terrorism operations without outside instruction or supervision.

“This is a war between Hamas and Israel in which Iran is supporting Hamas, but Hamas is calling the shots,” said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA counterterrorism expert and now senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

While there’s “no doubt” that Hamas coordinates with Iran, the group’s relative independence makes it a harder target for Israeli and Western intelligence agencies, Riedel added.


“They do not routinely provide information to Iranian advisers who then communicate it home. There aren’t any advisers in Gaza,” said Riedel, who noted that it is difficult for ordinary Hamas fighters to leave Gaza for training abroad.

The rockets and missiles launched by Hamas may have been locally produced, but they possess a clear Iranian pedigree, analysts and weapons experts said.

Years ago, Iranian rockets were smuggled from Egypt through Sinai into Gaza. But after President Abdel Fatah El-Sisi came to power, Egypt closed many of the tunnels that connected Sinai to Gaza, and Iran began helping Hamas develop an indigenous capability.

“It’s better to give your proxies the ability to produce this stuff themselves than to have to worry about logistical pipelines that can be interdicted and cut off,” Eisenstadt said.

Some of the rockets produced by Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas have Farsi terms in the blueprints, Eisenstadt said. And a drone used by Hamas, called the Shahab, is based on the Iranian Ababil-2, a loitering munition which Eisenstadt said is almost identical to a model being used in Yemen by the Houthis, another Iranian proxy.

Though Israel Defense Forces have said there is no evidence of Iranian operational involvement in the attack, the tactics used are very much “in accordance with Iran’s concept of operations,” to create a “crossroads of fire” — launching an attack every few months or years to “undermine Israeli morale, sap Israeli resilience” with the aim of “undermining the long-term viability of Israel,” Eisenstadt said.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:36 am
by jhu72
Matnum PI wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:57 pm
jhu72 wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:50 pmr... I understand. Israel bares no blame, none, not even a little for the situation they find themselves in. We will agree to disagree.
I never said that. Of course they do. With this said, it's irresponsible to say to a rape victim, And you had *no* role in your being raped?! None? What were you wearing? What time were you out until? etc. Yes. Of course Israel has some role. And obviously more than the victim of a rape. But to speak to Israel like they've brought these attacks onto to themselves, like they bear the responsibility for these attacks, that is, to be kind, off.
No matter what you call Gaza, Israel's management of Gaza, has contributed to a more and more desperate situation for the civilian population, year after year after year. Those sub 18year olds were made to grow up in a hopeless situation with less and less adult supervision. Fewer and fewer adults and those that existed were as desperate and angry as their children. They were allowed to become the "animals" everyone now wants to make them out to be. Sure Hamas is/was a bad influence, the only influence perhaps. Israel made no effort to counteract that influence (other than to kill a few Hamas members, while killing more Palestinians, rinse and repeat -- it is referred to by the Israelis as "mowing the grass"). The very best Israel can say it offered was benign neglect which was clearly the wrong thing to do. Israeli politicians now in power knew perfectly well what they were doing (this is documented). They saw advantage in their domestic politics in ignoring the festering disease in Gaza, allowing it grow. Ignore it until it blows up. Israel is reaping what it has sown in the management of Gaza.

This is not an endorsement of Hamas or anyone else. This is not a hope that lots of Israelis die to pay for their nation's role in the making of the situation. This is not blaming everything on Israel, but it is also not giving them a pass for their role.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:46 am
by Brooklyn
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:22 am
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:06 am ^ kindly provide a translation
No. Why?


Better to provide facts rather than mindless accusations.


Consider this:


The West’s Hypocrisy Towards Gaza’s Breakout Is Stomach-Turning
There will be little sympathy in the West as, yet again, besieged Palestinians are bombed by Israel, their immense suffering justified by the term 'Israeli retaliation'


https://original.antiwar.com/cook/2023/ ... h-turning/


The current outpouring of sympathy for Israel should make anyone with half a heart retch.

Not because it is not awful that Israeli civilians are dying and suffering in such large numbers. But because Palestinian civilians in Gaza have faced repeated rampages from Israel decade after decade, producing far more suffering, but have never elicited a fraction of the concern currently being expressed by western politicians or publics.

The West’s hypocrisy over Palestinian fighters killing and wounding hundreds of Israelis and holding dozens more hostage in communities surrounding and inside besieged Gaza is stark indeed.

This is the first time Palestinians, caged in the coastal enclave, have managed to inflict a significant strike against Israel vaguely comparable to the savagery Palestinians in Gaza have faced repeatedly since they were entombed in a cage since 2007, when Israel began its blockade by land, sea and air.

Western media are calling the jailbreak and attack by Palestinians from Gaza “unprecedented” – and the most dismal intelligence failing by Israel since it was caught off-guard during the Yom Kippur War exactly 50 years ago.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has accused Hamas, which nominally runs the open-air prison of Gaza, of starting “a cruel and evil war”. But the truth is that the Palestinians have “started” nothing. They have managed, after so much struggle, to find a way to hurt their tormentor.

Inevitably for the Palestinians, as Netanyahu also observed, “the price will be heavy” – especially for civilians. Israel will inflict on the prisoners the severest punishment for their impudence.

Watch how little sympathy and concern there will be from the West for the many Palestinian men, women and children who are killed once again by Israel. Their immense suffering will be obscured, and justified, by the term “Israeli retaliation”.


The real lessons

All the current analysis focusing on Israel’s intelligence “blunders” distracts from the real lesson of these rapidly evolving events.

No one really cared while Gaza’s Palestinans were subjected to a blockade imposed by Israel that denied them the essentials of life. The few dozen Israelis being held hostage by Hamas fighters pale in comparison with the two million Palestinians held hostage by Israel in an open-air prison for nearly two decades.

No one really cared when it emerged that Gaza’s Palestinians had been put on a “starvation diet” by Israel – only limited food was allowed in, calculated to keep the population barely fed.

No one really cared when Israel bombed the coastal enclave every few years, killing many hundreds of Palestinian civilians each time. Israel simply called it “mowing the lawn”. The destruction of vast areas of Gaza, what Israeli generals boasted of as returning the enclave to the Stone Age, was formalised as a military strategy known as the “Dahiya doctrine“.

No one really cared when Israeli snipers targeted nurses, youngsters and people in wheelchairs who came out to protest against their imprisonment by Israel. Many thousands were left as amputees after those snipers received orders to shoot the protesters indiscriminately in the legs or ankles.

Western concern at the deaths of Israeli civilians at the hands of Palestinian fighters is hard to stomach. Have not many hundreds of Palestinian children died over the past 15 years in Israel’s repeated bombing campaigns on Gaza? Did their lives not count as much as Israeli lives – and if not, why not?

After so much indifference for so long, it is difficult to hear the sudden horror from Western governments and media because Palestinians have finally found a way – mirroring Israel’s inhumane, decades-long policy – to fight back effectively.

This moment rips off the mask and lays bare the undisguised racism that masquerades as moral concern in western capitals.

Hypocrisy distilled

Distilling that hypocrisy is Volodymr Zelenskiy, Ukraine’s president. At the weekend, he issued a lengthy tweet condemning Palestinians as “terrorists” and offering Israel his unwavering support.

He averred that “Israel’s right to self-defense is unquestionable”, adding: “The world must stand united and in solidarity so that terror does not attempt to break or subjugate life anywhere and at any moment.”

The inversion of reality is breath-taking. The Palestinians cannot “subjugate life” in Israel. They have no such power, even if a few briefly managed to break out of their cage. It is Israel that has been subjugating Palestinian life for decades.

Not all forms of “terrorism”, it seems, are equal in the eyes of Zelenskiy, or his patrons in Western capitals. Certainly, not the state terrorism of Israel that has made Palestinian lives a misery for decades.

How does Israel have an “unquestionable right” to “defend itself” from the Palestinians whose territory it occupies and controls? To apply Zelenskiy’s logic, how does Russia then not have an equal claim to be “defending itself” when it kills Ukrainians trying to liberate territory from Russian occupation?

Israel, the much stronger, belligerent party, is now laying waste to Gaza “in retaliation”, as the BBC puts it, for the latest Palestinian attack.

So on what grounds will Zelenskiy or his officials be able to condemn Moscow when it fires missiles “in retaliation” for Ukraine’s strikes on Russian territory? How, if Palestinian resistance to Israel’s occupation of Gaza is terrorism, as Zelenskiy asserts, is Ukrainain resistance to Russian occupation not equally terrorism?

No hiding place

By indulging Israel in its deceptions, Israel’s allies have allowed it to perpetrate ever more outrageous lies. At the weekend, Netanyahu warned Palestinians in Gaza to “leave now” because Israeli forces were preparing to “act with all force”.

But Netanyahu knows, as do his Western enablers, that Gaza’s population has nowhere to flee. There is no hiding place. Palestinians have been sealed into Gaza since Israel besieged it by land, sea and air.

The only Palestinians able to “leave Gaza” are the armed factions who broke out of their Israeli-imposed jail and are being denounced as “terrorists” by Western politicians and media.

Western governments so horrified by the Palestinian attack on Israel are also the governments that are remaining silent as Israel turns off the electricity to the prison that is Gaza – again in supposed “retaliation”.

The collective punishment of two million Palestinians in Gaza, dependent on Israel for power because Israel surrounds and controls every aspect of their lives in the enclave, is a war crime.

Strangely, Western officials understand it is a war crime when Russia bombs power stations in Ukraine, turning off the lights. They scream for Russian President Vladimir Putin to be dragged to the International Criminal Court in the Hague. So why is it so difficult for them to understand the parallels of what Israel is doing to Gaza?

Daring escape

There are two immediate, and contrasting, lessons to be learnt from what has happened this weekend.

The first is that the human spirit cannot be caged indefinitely. Palestinians in Gaza have been constantly devising new ways to break free from their chains.

They have built a network of tunnels, most of which Israel has located and destroyed. They have fired rockets that are invariably shot down by ever more sophisticated interception systems. They have protested en masse at the heavily fortified fences, topped by guntowers, Israel surrounded them with – only to be shot by snipers.

Now they have staged a daring escape. Israel will batter the enclave back into submission with massive bombardments, but only “in retaliation”, of course. The Palestinians’ craving for freedom and dignity will not be diminished. Another form of resistance, doubtless more brutal still, will emerge.

And the parties most responsible for that brutality will be Israel and the West that supports it so lavishly, because Israel refuses to stop brutalising the Palestinians it forces to live under its rule.

The second lesson is that Israel, endlessly indulged by its Western patrons, still has no incentive to internalise the fundamental truth above. The rhetoric of its current government of facists and Jewish supremacists may be particularly ugly, but there is a broad consensus among Israelis of all political stripes that the Palestinians must continue to be oppressed.

Which is why the so-called opposition will not hesitate to support the military pounding of the long besieged enclave of Gaza, killing yet more Palestinian civilians to “teach them a lesson”, a lesson no one in Israel can articulate beyond asserting that Palestinians must accept their permanent inferiority and imprisonment.

Already, the “good Israelis” – opposition leaders Yair Lapid and Benny Gantz – are in discussions with Netanyahu to join him in an “emergency unity government”.

What “emergency”? The emergency of Palestinians demanding the right not to live as prisoners in their own homeland.

Israelis and Westerners can continue their mental gymnastics to justify the Palestinians’ oppression and refuse them any right to resist. But their hypocrisy and self-deceptions stand exposed for the rest of the world to see.





These truths have been documented for decades while the bigoted pro war news media has disregarded all of it. While there can be no justification for violence, there certainly isn't justification for Apartheid style repression as well. No small coincidence that even Einstein called this fascism.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:47 am
by NattyBohChamps04
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Yes. And?

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:49 am
by old salt
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:47 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Yes. And?
QFP, for your reading pleasure if you are not a subscriber.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:53 am
by NattyBohChamps04
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:46 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:22 am
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:06 am ^ kindly provide a translation
No. Why?


Better to provide facts rather than mindless accusations.
Facts are looking miserable for Hamas. Israel is terrible too. Palestinian civilians and jewish civilians are always caught in the crossfire.

Murdering children and killing civilians ? You're gonna hitch your wagon to a murderous nation either way. Great job my man.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:53 am
by NattyBohChamps04
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:49 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:47 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Yes. And?
QFP, for your reading pleasure if you are not a subscriber.
Whose training are you providing for? Whoops.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:59 am
by jhu72
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:49 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:47 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Yes. And?
QFP, for your reading pleasure if you are not a subscriber.
... what does QFP stand for? I understand why you posted it, just for the record, but "Qualified Financial Planner".

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:09 am
by jhu72
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:53 am
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:46 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:22 am
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:06 am ^ kindly provide a translation
No. Why?


Better to provide facts rather than mindless accusations.
Facts are looking miserable for Hamas. Israel is terrible too. Palestinian civilians and jewish civilians are always caught in the crossfire.

Murdering children and killing civilians ? You're gonna hitch your wagon to a murderous nation either way. Great job my man.
... and everyone wants to blame Iran for arming HAMAS while we are and will do exactly the same for Israel and will bear a degree of responsibility for the dead innocents killed by Israel in punishing HAMAS.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:27 am
by old salt
jhu72 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:59 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:49 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:47 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Yes. And?
QFP, for your reading pleasure if you are not a subscriber.
... what does QFP stand for? I understand why you posted it, just for the record, but "Qualified Financial Planner".
QFP = Quoted for Posterity. Used for articles which are widely referenced & may be revisited or referenced in the future.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:32 am
by old salt
Excerpts :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... struction/

This is Israel’s 9/11. The consequences will be dangerous — and unforeseeable.

By Max Boot, October 7, 2023

I had been planning to write this week about the negotiations among President Biden, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia to normalize Israel-Saudi ties in return for a U.S.-Saudi defense treaty. Analysts I talked to were cautiously optimistic that this megadeal might be concluded by early next year. Despite the continuing civil war in Syria, the region felt calm. U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan remarked just last week that “the Middle East region is quieter today than it has been in two decades now.”

So much for that. Saturday’s surprise attack by Hamas fighters into Israel is a grim reminder that, in the Middle East, war-fighting usually takes precedence over peacemaking. It is hard to imagine the Saudi-Israeli peace talks making much progress as Israel reels from the worst surprise attack it has suffered since the 1973 Yom Kippur War — and as it mobilizes for what is likely to be its largest ground assault into the Gaza Strip since Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009. Indeed, though we don’t know for sure why Hamas chose to strike exactly now, this could well be part of a larger attempt by Iran and its proxies — including Hamas — to prevent a historic reconciliation between Jerusalem and Riyadh. ...

...Though Israel could never make peace with Hamas, a movement dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state, it had learned to live with a terrorist organization in control of the Gaza Strip as a lesser evil — compared with a renewed Israeli occupation, an even more extremist group such as al-Qaeda in charge, or Libya-style chaos. Israel had mounted numerous military operations against Hamas since its takeover in 2007, two years after Israel pulled out of Gaza. But these were mostly from the air. And even when Israeli troops were deployed, they never stayed for long.

As a 2017 Rand Corp. study noted: “Israel’s grand strategy became ‘mowing the grass’ — accepting its inability to permanently solve the problem and instead repeatedly targeting leadership of Palestinian militant organizations to keep violence manageable. Dealing with Hamas in Gaza puts Israel in a strategic quandary: It needs to exert enough force to deter Hamas from attacking but not so much that it topples the regime. As one Israeli defense analyst put it, ‘We want to break their bones without putting them in the hospital.’”

Now the pressure will be irresistible for Netanyahu, who on Saturday declared that “we are at war,” to order the complete destruction of Hamas. That could lead Israeli troops into extremely difficult fighting in the dense urban terrain of Gaza City against a shadowy foe that can hide among the civilian population. Indeed, Hamas might be trying to draw Israel into a quagmire similar to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, knowing that Israeli forces are much more vulnerable when they are fighting on foot than when they are dropping bombs from the sky.

The Israeli military remains the strongest force in the Middle East, and it will ultimately prevail. But even a tactical victory would leave Israel facing the question “Now what?” Most Israelis have no desire for a long-term occupation of the Gaza Strip, one that would inevitably lead to further Israeli casualties and accusations that their troops are committing war crimes. But they are running out of alternatives....

...Ultimately, Israelis and Palestinians have to recognize that they have no alternative but to live side by side in peace. Responsible Israelis — who are largely missing from Netanyahu’s far-right cabinet — know that Palestinians’ lives have to improve to prevent more eruptions of violence in the future.

An Israeli-Saudi normalization deal, assuming it preserves the possibility of a two-state solution, could make an important contribution to Israel’s long-term security. But the prospect of peace talks advancing is far more remote today than it was yesterday. For now, war and suffering are the order of the day, with no clear end in sight.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:34 am
by a fan
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:27 am
jhu72 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:59 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:49 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:47 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Yes. And?
QFP, for your reading pleasure if you are not a subscriber.
... what does QFP stand for? I understand why you posted it, just for the record, but "Qualified Financial Planner".
QFP = Quoted for Posterity. Used for articles which are widely referenced & may be revisited or referenced in the future.
Remember this when I bring up things from the past.......you have given me grief multiple times for doing it.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:46 am
by old salt
a fan wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:34 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:27 am
jhu72 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:59 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:49 am
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:47 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:30 am QFP.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Yes. And?
QFP, for your reading pleasure if you are not a subscriber.
... what does QFP stand for? I understand why you posted it, just for the record, but "Qualified Financial Planner".
QFP = Quoted for Posterity. Used for articles which are widely referenced & may be revisited or referenced in the future.
Remember this when I bring up things from the past.......you have given me grief multiple times for doing it.
What ?? You don't get it. Why are you quacking about this ?

QFP is why I went to the trouble to post those articles. They are widely referenced. Others might be interested in them. It may be useful to have access to them to revisit them. Not everyone is a subscriber. You are unhinged, criticizing everything I post. Trying to harass & suppress my posts.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:15 am
by a fan
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:46 am Others might be interested in them. It may be useful to have access to them to revisit them. Not everyone is a subscriber. You are unhinged, criticizing everything I post.
Nope. Hinges are fine. You know perfectly well what I'm referencing. "Revisiting" old posts gets you yelled at around here.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:18 am
by old salt
a fan wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:15 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:46 am Others might be interested in them. It may be useful to have access to them to revisit them. Not everyone is a subscriber. You are unhinged, criticizing everything I post.
Nope. Hinges are fine. You know perfectly well what I'm referencing. "Revisiting" old posts gets you yelled at around here.
Bless your heart, you poor thing. You find a way to be the victim in everything.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:46 am
by a fan
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:18 am
a fan wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:15 am
old salt wrote: Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:46 am Others might be interested in them. It may be useful to have access to them to revisit them. Not everyone is a subscriber. You are unhinged, criticizing everything I post.
Nope. Hinges are fine. You know perfectly well what I'm referencing. "Revisiting" old posts gets you yelled at around here.
Bless your heart, you poor thing. You find a way to be the victim in everything.
I'm not the one who's complaining......that's you.

You can QFP all you like. Or reference past posts all you like. Knock yourself out.