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Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:10 pm**

tech37 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:16 pm a fan claims that farmers he deals with are in trouble due to the "trade war" with China. How much of their trouble is due to adverse weather conditions rather than Trump admin trade policy?

Ya wanna blame it on global warming? Ok. Knock yourself out.

Dude, you're so far in the bag for giving Trump 1000 benefits of the doubt, it's just----- tip of the hat, is all I got. Where was this beneficence with Obama?

Farmers are ALWAYS on the verge of bankruptcy. Is Trump 100% to blame for their woes? Come on man. I look like DocB to you?

Of course he isn't. I told you what Trump did wrong, chapter and verse. You ignored me. And everything I said Trump should do can still be done this very day. He's STILL not doing them because his advisors are too stupid to know this spat may very well last years, not days.

tech37 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:16 pm And before you start with your "ivory castle" critique a fan, you should know I spent two years working on a dairy farm in upstate NY, earning little but learning a lot.

Great. Then you understand you need to know if you have a buyer---and what the price will be, roughly-----when you plant stuff in the ground. Trump has turned what little certainty farmers had for many crops (no, not all) upside down.

That's it. That's all I've claimed. And when I get testy about it, it's ALWAYS because posters want to sell me that either Trump has a master plan at work.....or that they don't care if farmers suffer because Trump is plainly an idiot, and didn't plan this trade war through. Suicide rate is through the roof out here in flyover land.

These are wholly reasonable points on my part, and you know it. Doubly so when the doggone war has proceeded just as I told you it would.

Posted: **Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:41 pm**

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:20 pm We've had ag subsidies & price supports since the depression. It's the only way our ag sector can survive.
When I was growing up, farmers could not survive without the soil bank program.
...but gotta have the endless argument anyway.

It ain't my argument, OS. It's the Republican argument who swear that the free market is the best path.

What I have said is: protectionist tariffs are the last big step toward socialism.

If we do that, American farmers are about one step away from having Uncle Sam buy their crops for them at a fixed price, and reselling it to the marketplace.

The part you and I bicker about is that you think farmers are the only workers in our entire great nation that deserve this special status that protects them from the free market. The rest of us? Not so much. I can't imagine getting a massive check from Trump because he screwed me over on retaliatory EU Bourbon tariffs. Yet that's exactly what farmers have gotten-----twice now.

And the "other part" we bicker about is that flyover voter don't understand all the goodies farmers get that others in other sectors don't get. They're tricked into thinking they are self-sufficient. This illusion has ruined economic policy in America for easily 40 years.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am**

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:10 pm
tech37 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:16 pm a fan claims that farmers he deals with are in trouble due to the "trade war" with China. How much of their trouble is due to adverse weather conditions rather than Trump admin trade policy?
Ya wanna blame it on global warming? Ok. Knock yourself out. Global warming? Just can't help yourself can you? Had to be partisan, had to politicize it... I posed a legit question about your specific claim that farmers you were dealing with are being bankrupted by trade policy. I just wonder if flooding has more to do with it and you're exaggerating to make your point.

Dude, you're so far in the bag for giving Trump 1000 benefits of the doubt, it's just----- tip of the hat, is all I got. Where was this beneficence with Obama? "In the bag"? "Beneficence"? I didn't agree with most of what Obama did or didn't do and should have done...it's that simple. Why is that so hard for you to understand? In the bag? Why not just label me "Trumpist" like the other resistance idiots?

Once again I have to spell out for you...I wish Trump wasn't POTUS, I hate the Tweets and many times don't like how he says things. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the long overdue stance toward China, despite all your criticism as to how it should be done. You get so bogged down in the left side of your brain, you fail to see the big picture.

In general, I'm certainly not seeing any alternatives to Trump right now that generates any confidence. So until 2020, I will try to remain optimistic and make the best of things where/when reasonable. If that puts me "in the bag" so be it.

Farmers are ALWAYS on the verge of bankruptcy. Is Trump 100% to blame for their woes? Come on man. I look like DocB to you? Sometimes.

Of course he isn't. I told you what Trump did wrong, chapter and verse. You ignored me. And everything I said Trump should do can still be done this very day. He's STILL not doing them because his advisors are too stupid to know this spat may very well last years, not days. Oh brother... you're the one who wanted everything done the first week in office!

"Spat" is more accurate than "war' but I like "negotiations." These negotiations aren't over yet (despite your cynicism) and I remain optimistic

That's it. That's all I've claimed. And when I get testy about it, it's ALWAYS because posters want to sell me that either Trump has a master plan at work.....or that they don't care if farmers suffer because Trump is plainly an idiot, and didn't plan this trade war through. Suicide rate is through the roof out here in flyover land. Suicide is up everywhere...you want to blame Trump? I blame our culture, lack of solid family values, and the internet.

These are wholly reasonable points on my part, and you know it. Doubly so when the doggone negotiations have proceeded just as I told you it would. Fixed. And that remains to be seen.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:58 am**

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am
a fan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:10 pm
tech37 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:16 pm a fan claims that farmers he deals with are in trouble due to the "trade war" with China. How much of their trouble is due to adverse weather conditions rather than Trump admin trade policy?
Ya wanna blame it on global warming? Ok. Knock yourself out. Global warming? Just can't help yourself can you? Had to be partisan, had to politicize it... I posed a legit question about your specific claim that farmers you were dealing with are being bankrupted by trade policy. I just wonder if flooding has more to do with it and you're exaggerating to make your point.

Dude, you're so far in the bag for giving Trump 1000 benefits of the doubt, it's just----- tip of the hat, is all I got. Where was this beneficence with Obama? "In the bag"? "Beneficence"? I didn't agree with most of what Obama did or didn't do and should have done...it's that simple. Why is that so hard for you to understand? In the bag? Why not just label me "Trumpist" like the other resistance idiots?

Once again I have to spell out for you...I wish Trump wasn't POTUS, I hate the Tweets and many times don't like how he says things. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the long overdue stance toward China, despite all your criticism as to how it should be done. You get so bogged down in the left side of your brain, you fail to see the big picture.

In general, I'm certainly not seeing any alternatives to Trump right now that generates any confidence. So until 2020, I will try to remain optimistic and make the best of things where/when reasonable. If that puts me "in the bag" so be it.

Farmers are ALWAYS on the verge of bankruptcy. Is Trump 100% to blame for their woes? Come on man. I look like DocB to you? Sometimes.

Of course he isn't. I told you what Trump did wrong, chapter and verse. You ignored me. And everything I said Trump should do can still be done this very day. He's STILL not doing them because his advisors are too stupid to know this spat may very well last years, not days. Oh brother... you're the one who wanted everything done the first week in office!

"Spat" is more accurate than "war' but I like "negotiations." These negotiations aren't over yet (despite your cynicism) and I remain optimistic

That's it. That's all I've claimed. And when I get testy about it, it's ALWAYS because posters want to sell me that either Trump has a master plan at work.....or that they don't care if farmers suffer because Trump is plainly an idiot, and didn't plan this trade war through. Suicide rate is through the roof out here in flyover land. Suicide is up everywhere...you want to blame Trump? I blame our culture, lack of solid family values, and the internet.

These are wholly reasonable points on my part, and you know it. Doubly so when the doggone negotiations have proceeded just as I told you it would. Fixed. And that remains to be seen.

Yes, "in the bag" is accurate.
You don't like the tweets, but the actions are just fine, indeed you can't seem to find any with which you disagree.
To the contrary, you have an excuse for everything.
And none of the Dems inspire your confidence as an alternative.
None.
In the bag.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:57 am**

r hero o d sticking to us all!

Trump's tariffs have cost US businesses $3.4 billion in June

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-tarif ... kfmevaatca

DEPLORABLE

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:24 am**

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:41 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:20 pm We've had ag subsidies & price supports since the depression. It's the only way our ag sector can survive.
When I was growing up, farmers could not survive without the soil bank program.
...but gotta have the endless argument anyway.
It ain't my argument, OS. It's the Republican argument who swear that the free market is the best path.

What I have said is: protectionist tariffs are the last big step toward socialism.

If we do that, American farmers are about one step away from having Uncle Sam buy their crops for them at a fixed price, and reselling it to the marketplace.

The part you and I bicker about is that you think farmers are the only workers in our entire great nation that deserve this special status that protects them from the free market. The rest of us? Not so much. I can't imagine getting a massive check from Trump because he screwed me over on retaliatory EU Bourbon tariffs. Yet that's exactly what farmers have gotten-----twice now.

And the "other part" we bicker about is that flyover voter don't understand all the goodies farmers get that others in other sectors don't get. They're tricked into thinking they are self-sufficient. This illusion has ruined economic policy in America for easily 40 years.

it is more complicated than that - lots of moving parts and variables, but two really big ones. 1) gotta have food to survive, it is the top of the needs hierarchy for a reason. 2) our farmers are not engaged in a free market economy - US farmers are subsidized (see point 1) but foreign farmers even more so.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:36 am**

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am "In the bag"? "Beneficence"? I didn't agree with most of what Obama did or didn't do and should have done...it's that simple. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

You are a piece of work. You tell me "why is that so hard for you to understand", right before you hammer me for criticizing the details as to how Trump has done something. Pot meet kettle much?

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am Once again I have to spell out for you...I wish Trump wasn't POTUS, I hate the Tweets and many times don't like how he says things. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the long overdue stance toward China, despite all your criticism as to how it should be done. You get so bogged down in the left side of your brain, you fail to see the big picture.

Pot meet kettle.

Once again you spelled out that tech37 has a job, so he doesn't care that others are losing their jobs over Trump starting a trade war without preparing first. Do you REALLY not see what a selfish tw*t you sound like here?

I might as well say that I don't care about rising Health Care costs in America because no matter what happens, I can personally afford it. Or better still, that I don't care about the Iraq or Afghanistan War one way or another because my family isn't in the military.

Stop saying that standing up to China is all that matters, and making fun of my stance that the details as to HOW we stand up to them matters.

I gave you the easy metaphor, and you brushed it off. What would you have thought if when you protested Obama's leaving Iraq too soon---I simply responded, "when" we leave Iraq is just a "meaningless detail"...you should just focus on the fact we are leaving Iraq, and stop whining.

That's what you're doing here. Cut it out.

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am In general, I'm certainly not seeing any alternatives to Trump right now that generates any confidence. So until 2020, I will try to remain optimistic and make the best of things where/when reasonable. If that puts me "in the bag" so be it.

I think Trump will get elected, too.

That's not what makes you in the bag. What makes you in the bag is when someone criticizes something Trump, and gives a logical, well thought-out, and wholly correct criticism, you STILL jump all over them for having TDS. Stop doing that, and concede solid points....and no one will call you a Trumpist.

Again, if you think I sound like Doc "sometimes", consider that your point of view might be the problem. So when you asked why don't I hammer the "resistance", you've failed to notice how much I spar with runrussellrun---the biggest lefty on the board. You've also failed to notice the "resistance", as you put it, is filled with moderates and actual conservatives. Your perspective as to where you sit on the political scale is off, imho.

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am "Spat" is more accurate than "war' but I like "negotiations." These negotiations aren't over yet (despite your cynicism) and I remain optimistic

That's fine, and commendable. I'm discussing the damage that's occurring RIGHT NOW as a result of HOW Trump has executed his Trade War.

You seem to think Trump is immune from criticism over China simply because you're so overjoyed that Trump stood up to the Chinese. I don't understand why you think this is the case.

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am Suicide is up everywhere...you want to blame Trump? I blame our culture, lack of solid family values, and the internet.

Oh FFS, dude. You think the suicide rate is in many case twice as high for farmers as it is in urban America because of Netflix?

Farmer goes bankrupt. Farmer loses farm dad and granddad owned. Farmer tops himself. At no point does the internet come into play.

I'm trying----desperately----to tell you that the actions of our President has pretty serious consequences. You understood that with Obama with no trouble whatsoever. I haven't the slightest clue as to why you think Trump's decisions and policies don't affect Americans.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:41 am**

HooDat wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:24 am ]it is more complicated than that - lots of moving parts and variables, but two really big ones. 1) gotta have food to survive, it is the top of the needs hierarchy for a reason

Buffalo bagels. You're conflating "you have to have food to survive" with "you have to have American-farmed food to survive".

HooDat wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:24 am our farmers are not engaged in a free market economy - US farmers are subsidized (see point 1) but foreign farmers even more so.

You don't think that's the case for all market sectors?

I have to compete with distilleries from Europe where the companies training, education, and health care are all provided by the government. Meanwhile, I have to cut a check for all three of those massive costs.

So where's my Federal check compensating for this unfair competition? Only farmers deserve that help, right?

Where's my tariff protection? Do you have any clue how much more business I'd do if Trump hit imported spirits with a 20% levy?

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:22 am**

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:41 am Buffalo bagels. You're conflating "you have to have food to survive" with "you have to have American-farmed food to survive".

well when any of this is actually important, which is specifically a time of war or perhaps some bizarre global famine - then no, I am not conflating. Having access to food that is farmed in the USA is of vital importance. Bourbon (as much as I like it) not so much....

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:47 am**

Ah, so it's a matter of national security? That's quite the stretch, but ok. You talking about everything that's grown in the earth? Or are we talking things like chicken, fish, and cattle? How about my heirloom rye, and DocB's lemon trees?

If you have now turned this into a national security issue: why expose them to the free market at all?

Sure is fascinating watching the American right move this hard, and this fast, to the left..... I'm having similar real-world conversations with others that so far as I can tell, are further to the right than you are.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:18 pm**

tech37 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:45 am "Spat" is more accurate than "war' but I like "negotiations." These negotiations aren't over yet (despite your cynicism) and I remain optimistic

Ok. Let's move the conversation forward.

If you're in charge of Chinese negotiations, would you make major concessions to Trump before November of 2020? I'm not talking about handing Trump a pointless "win". I"m talking about agreeing the the moving goalposts that are what Trump is asking of China. Intellectual property. Trump's phony trade deficit "problem". And now, apparently, Fentanyl.

Think it over. Would you concede any of those points before next November?

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:20 pm**

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:47 am Ah, so it's a matter of national security? That's quite the stretch, but ok. You talking about everything that's grown in the earth? Or are we talking things like chicken, fish, and cattle? How about my heirloom rye, and DocB's lemon trees?

If you have now turned this into a national security issue: why expose them to the free market at all?

Sure is fascinating watching the American right move this hard, and this fast, to the left..... I'm having similar real-world conversations with others that so far as I can tell, are further to the right than you are.

I am not all that right, I just tend toward devil's advocate and the right is under-represented on these boards!

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:26 pm**

The bulk of the posters are rightish or center. Don't think we have any on the far right.

Brookie, DocB, and Runrussellrun are the only lefties. Am I missing anyone?

Disslaxxic is, imho, center left.

And no, you're not all that much on the right. It's clear to me I'm to the right of you on many issues.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:51 pm**

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:26 pm The bulk of the posters are rightish or center. Don't think we have any on the far right.

Brookie, DocB, and Runrussellrun are the only lefties. Am I missing anyone?

Disslaxxic is, imho, center left.

And no, you're not all that much on the right. It's clear to me I'm to the right of you on many issues.

Me, a leftie??

Hmmm ~ seems we've gone over that before. Did you forget my posts on the 2d Amendment or how my ideas were gleaned from our Founding Fathers??

Oh wait - those Founders and their ideals would correspond with the thoughts of today's lefties, so mebbe you do have a point there ...

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:54 pm**

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:53 pm**

For the record,

Dairy farmers have been getting less in sales per hundred pounds of milk they produce than their costs going back pre Trump election.

It has cost them 113% to 146% per hundred pounds of selling price to produce.

Losing proposition for dairy farmers across country with or without tariffs that affect them.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:16 pm**

The U.S. budget deficit grew to $866.8 billion in the first 10 months of the new fiscal year, a 27% increase from the same period one year earlier. #maga
Deadbeat Don is more than just a flaming racist. Or less.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:18 pm**

Trinity wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:16 pm The U.S. budget deficit grew to $866.8 billion in the first 10 months of the new fiscal year, a 27% increase from the same period one year earlier. #maga

So much winning!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/12/the-us- ... ter%7Cmain

The US budget deficit is up 27% and getting closer to $1 trillion.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:18 pm**

Trinity wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:16 pm The U.S. budget deficit grew to $866.8 billion in the first 10 months of the new fiscal year, a 27% increase from the same period one year earlier. #maga

So much winning!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/12/the-us- ... ter%7Cmain

The US budget deficit is up 27% and getting closer to $1 trillion.

Posted: **Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:19 pm**

Where are the Tea Party Patriots? Paul Ryan said these tax cuts would pay for themselves.

Tomorrow 9AM on @msnbc
“I would like to extend an invitation to: fiscal hawks, trickle down economic enthusiasts & those who argued the tax cuts would pay for themselves.
I am hoping that someone that falls into any of the above categories can explain the 27% INCREASE.” Stephanie Ruhle — MSNBC anchor who knows this stuff.

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