Same Party, Different House
https://fanlax.com/forum/
I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.
Mor played for South Jersey in the Macabbi Games in Cherry Hill, NJ...kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:40 pm RIP Mor Cohen
Midfielder, Team Israel Lacrosse
https://www.facebook.com/10008338005879 ... tid=PemB2b
Free speech is tough to swallow at times.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:20 pm To your point Matnum: https://x.com/greg_price11/status/17118 ... a82I2GssRg
The brilliant minds at GW IN DC tonight….”free from the river to the sea” : https://x.com/collinsfortx/status/17118 ... a82I2GssRg
Not to mention our own “Squad” members:
https://freebeacon.com/democrats/the-sq ... r-attacks/
Some of the "release all restraints" language re the military action and similar rhetoric from Israeli authorities may well not conform to what we would hope would be targeting solely on military capacities and personnel. There appears to be a permission structure occurring that's quite apart from how we would hope the Israeli military treat civilians and civilian targets. It's understandable, but it's highly problematic.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:37 pmTrue and... The Israelis need to defend themselves, protect themselves. There's no way to do this without violence. As they usually do, they'll have targeted attacks based on their military intelligence while, as they've already done, warning the civilians what is coming. Their interest is not killing Palestinian civilians. They're interest is destroying their military assets including their terrorist leaders. (Hamas and the Palestinians cannot say the same.) What will be unique about this insurgence is that there will be an enormous amount of destruction. Not as pay-back so much as, based on this weekends attack, it's obvious that Hamas and the Palestinians stock piled a lot of military assets. Their infrastructure needs to be demolished. Demolished so it is completely unusable.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:14 pm ... I would suggest they control their anger and think carefully before they make a bad situation much worse. No amount of violence will bring back the dead. Indiscriminate and wanton destruction will just solidify the criticisms they face.
Youth, it's disturbing. I consider myself apolitical and, clicking those links, it's very difficult to not have strong feelings about certain politicians.
Let's see what happens. Keep in mind, Hamas and the Palestinians took an enormous number of hostages, children, elderly. Israel cannot afford to bomb Gaza indiscriminately. Also, they called up hundreds of thousands of soldiers. I'm sure there'll be bombs but there's also going to be a lot of feet on the streets. For sure this won't be a long distance war fought with bombs and drones.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:38 pm Some of the "release all restraints" language re the military action and similar rhetoric from Israeli authorities may well not conform to what we would hope would be targeting solely on military capacities and personnel. There appears to be a permission structure occurring that's quite apart from how we would hope the Israeli military treat civilians and civilian targets. It's understandable, but it's highly problematic.
Fingers crossed that it won't be a total bloodbath for the civilians.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:45 pmLet's see what happens. Keep in mind, Hamas and the Palestinians took an enormous number of hostages, children, elderly. Israel cannot afford to bomb Gaza indiscriminately. Also, they called up hundreds of thousands of soldiers. I'm sure there'll be bombs but there's also going to be a lot of feet on the streets. For sure this won't be a long distance war fought with bombs and drones.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:38 pm Some of the "release all restraints" language re the military action and similar rhetoric from Israeli authorities may well not conform to what we would hope would be targeting solely on military capacities and personnel. There appears to be a permission structure occurring that's quite apart from how we would hope the Israeli military treat civilians and civilian targets. It's understandable, but it's highly problematic.
Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:46 pmI reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.
Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r
Palestinians can leave the West Bank, leave Gaza, they just can't walk freely into Israel. Israel, for obvious reasons, has security measures established. e.g. Palestinians have jobs in Israel. It's just that it's a hassle to get to work in the AM due to security measures. They need to wake up earlier. In other words, the Palestinians can move themselves away from harms way. I'm not saying leaving one's home is a pleasant experience. No more pleasant than the Jews from southern Israel who are also being forced to move. Bottomline, what's about to happen is not going to be a brief skirmish. This is going to be a full-blown war. Palestinians, especially in Gaza, are capable of moving themselves from harm's way. And they'd be foolish not to.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:55 pm ... If they can't figure out a way to channel civilians out safely, it's going to be very, very ugly...
I don't know how to reply to this except to say, It's simply not true. To say that the Israelis are like the bigoted South African whites while Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians are like the blacks in South Africa is... It's just nonsensical. I don't even know where to start. For starters, the arabs wanted to wipe the Jews off the map well before Israel had even created a state. By definition, there was zero "apartheid" and still, the arabs were going to war with the Jews. That was not apartheid. That was antisemitism. Lest we forget, during WW2, these same people wanted to partner with Hitler because they had shared enemies: communists, English, and the Jews. (Hitler had no use for them so he moved on.) The apartheid narrative plays well for some, especially emotionally. But it simply isn't true.Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:08 pm Antisemitism - peace.
How does all this square with: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/10/09 ... ppression/
The writer blames Israel and it's Apartheid that is the cause. I see it that way as well. All those progressives Jews who advocated for Palestinian causes that I knew in NY all wanted Peace. Not one was ever a Jew hater.
What Hamas has done is unspeakable and unpardonable. What Israel will likely do in response will be most likely also unspeakable and unpardonable. When and if it occurs I will condemn them as I have Hamas.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:55 pmFingers crossed that it won't be a total bloodbath for the civilians.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:45 pmLet's see what happens. Keep in mind, Hamas and the Palestinians took an enormous number of hostages, children, elderly. Israel cannot afford to bomb Gaza indiscriminately. Also, they called up hundreds of thousands of soldiers. I'm sure there'll be bombs but there's also going to be a lot of feet on the streets. For sure this won't be a long distance war fought with bombs and drones.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:38 pm Some of the "release all restraints" language re the military action and similar rhetoric from Israeli authorities may well not conform to what we would hope would be targeting solely on military capacities and personnel. There appears to be a permission structure occurring that's quite apart from how we would hope the Israeli military treat civilians and civilian targets. It's understandable, but it's highly problematic.
But I won't be surprised if it is.
I don't think the Israelis are going to put up with sniper fire and booby traps going door to door when they can simply take down the building.
2.2m people, more than 50% children living in that very small area. 139 square miles, just twice the size of DC proper. Very dense. With tunnels throughout.
If they can't figure out a way to channel civilians out safely, it's going to be very, very ugly.
Omar and the Squad are what they said they were. It is sickening that she was elected.youthathletics wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:20 pm To your point Matnum: https://x.com/greg_price11/status/17118 ... a82I2GssRg
The brilliant minds at GW IN DC tonight….”free from the river to the sea” : https://x.com/collinsfortx/status/17118 ... a82I2GssRg
Not to mention our own “Squad” members:
https://freebeacon.com/democrats/the-sq ... r-attacks/
... I understand. Israel bares no blame, none, not even a little for the situation they find themselves in. We will agree to disagree.Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:27 pmCorrect. The Jewish Ghettos aren't a great comparison but it's 100 times better than saying the Israeli Jews are running concentration camps.jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:37 pmMDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:01 pm If an analogy has to be made, the better analogy to WWII for Gaza would be the Jewish ghettos, not concentration camps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_gh ... zi_Germany -- perhaps. Don't think it is likely in the end to make much difference. Matnum is not likely to like that "analogy" any better, and it won't make any difference to the fate of the Palestinians in Gaza.
...
Your perspective that both sides should just be peaceful towards each other is not real, is not tenable. Also, FWIW, what happened this weekend is unspeakable, unpardonable. Bombing Gaza with to destroy military assets after giving civilians fair warning what is going to happen. I dunno. That seems like a very different level of unspeakable, unpardonable. Rape, murder, beheadings, kidnappings, etc. explicitly to civilians vs. a military operation in response with a forewarning of this operation so civilians can get out of harm's way. I dunno. The two seem very different to me.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 pm What Hamas has done is unspeakable and unpardonable. What Israel will likely do in response will be most likely also unspeakable and unpardonable. When and if it occurs I will condemn them as I have Hamas.
Agreed. Israel isn't for everyone. Especially as a home. Not a simple place to live. Lots of Jews like your friend.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 pm I worked with a guy... he couldn't live in Israel because the residents didn't even understand how abnormal their existence was...
If that was the endgame for the Jews, they would've done it by now. It clearly isn't. Meir Kahane and his followers had this vision and he was sidelined and castigated. This is clearly not the Jews endgame. For Hamas and a huge percentage of the Palestinian population, this is precisely and openly what they aspire to. Nothing short of wiping the Israelis off the map will suffice. I recognize that it's harsh to couch the conflict in these terms but this is simply the reality.PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 pm As I said before, the endgame here, the eventual elimination of the Palestinian population, is abhorrent.
I never said that. Of course they do. With this said, it's irresponsible to say to a rape victim, And you had *no* role in your being raped?! None? What were you wearing? What time were you out until? etc. Yes. Of course Israel has some role. And obviously more than the victim of a rape. But to speak to Israel like they've brought these attacks onto to themselves, like they bear the responsibility for these attacks, that is, to be kind, off.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:38 pm Some of the "release all restraints" language re the military action and similar rhetoric from Israeli authorities may well not conform to what we would hope would be targeting solely on military capacities and personnel. There appears to be a permission structure occurring that's quite apart from how we would hope the Israeli military treat civilians and civilian targets. It's understandable, but it's highly problematic.
You might want to see how they proceed before passing judgment & jumping to conclusions.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 9:55 pmFingers crossed that it won't be a total bloodbath for the civilians.
But I won't be surprised if it is.
I don't think the Israelis are going to put up with sniper fire and booby traps going door to door when they can simply take down the building.
2.2m people, more than 50% children living in that very small area. 139 square miles, just twice the size of DC proper. Very dense. With tunnels throughout.
If they can't figure out a way to channel civilians out safely, it's going to be very, very ugly.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/i ... x_artPos=1
Israel Sought to Contain Hamas for Years. Now It Faces a Potentially Costly Fight to Eliminate It.
Hamas’s attack on Israel upends a carrots-and-sticks policy toward the Palestinian militant group
For years, Israel has been caught between its wish to rid itself of Hamas and the reality that removing it from Gaza could require a long war.
By Dov Lieber, Oct. 10, 2023
TEL AVIV—For years, Israel’s government pursued a policy of containment against Hamas, using a mix of economic incentives and military force to keep the Palestinian militant group that runs Gaza in check and protect Israeli citizens from violence.
After last weekend’s deadly attacks, which killed hundreds of Israeli civilians, policy makers are adopting a new approach toward a group that the U.S. and Israel have designated a terrorist organization: eradication.
Israel’s leaders are preparing a large-scale operation intended to either decisively end Hamas’s hold on Gaza, a densely populated strip of Palestinian territory, or gut its military capabilities entirely.
“What was in Gaza will be no more,” Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Tuesday. “They will regret [their actions].”
Tensions continue to escalate between Israel and Hamas as the militant group has threatened to execute hostages if the country continues to bombard civilian homes in the Gaza Strip without warning.
Giora Eiland, a former Israeli general and national security adviser, said, “We will not be able to return to the status quo that existed prior to this attack.”
“It’s either us or them,” he said, and “a matter of the survival of the state.”
Israel has long been caught between its desire to rid itself of Hamas—which is backed by Iran and openly committed to Israel’s destruction—and the reality that removing it from Gaza could require a long war and potentially cost many lives.
The country’s military has responded to previous rounds of violence with limited airstrikes to full-blown invasions, but it never risked the all-out-war needed to completely topple Hamas’s rule.
In the past, the Israeli military typically targeted Hamas only if attacked or if the group had built up a threatening capability, such as tunnels dug into Israel.
Recently, Israel also sought to provide economic benefits to residents of Gaza aimed at raising the cost of direct conflict for Hamas. Israel loosened trade restrictions on the blockaded enclave, which is home to two million people, and bolstered supplies of water, medicine and fuel.
Israeli authorities also issued new work permits that allowed thousands of Gazans to find jobs in Israel.
Israel completely removed its civilian presence in Gaza in 2005 because officials thought Israeli rule of the territory wasn’t sustainable. The next year, Hamas won parliamentary elections. In 2007, the group violently took control of the Gaza Strip from the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority, which still governs most Palestinians in the occupied West Bank. Israel quickly placed a tight blockade on the territory, along with Egypt.
After Israel’s first major conflict with Hamas at the end of 2008, Benjamin Netanyahu, then the leader of the opposition, advocated toppling Hamas. Instead, a cease-fire was brokered with Arab and Western mediators. The two sides have fought several small and large conflicts since then, most recently in 2021.
Netanyahu, now prime minister, allowed Qatar in 2018 to begin sending millions of dollars to Hamas’s government to boost the economic incentives for the militant group to maintain peace. In 2021, he began increasing the number of Gazans permitted to work in Israel.
By this year, that number had reached nearly 20,000. Israeli security officials felt that the work permits could be incentives for Hamas to keep the peace. If Hamas attacked, the border would be closed, and thousands of Gazan families would lose their livelihoods until Hamas restored calm.
Netanyahu pursued a divide-and-conquer strategy by propping up Hamas, while at the same time weakening the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, said Yohanan Plesner, a former lawmaker and head of the Jerusalem-based think tank the Israel Democracy Institute.
“It was ideology at the expense of security,” Plesner said.
Plesner said he, along with much of the Israeli security establishment, had mistakenly supported the carrot-and-stick policy with Hamas, preferring to avoid any extended conflict.
Now, neither aerial bombardment nor limited ground incursions are enough to address the threat Hamas poses, Israeli officials and analysts said.
“This is not the regular small contained Gaza breast-for-tat,” said Israeli military spokesman Richard Hecht, in a briefing to reporters on Tuesday. “The scale and scope of atrocity here is bigger. Israel is going to respond very severely.”
Israel is conducting airstrikes on Gaza and mobilizing troops and tanks on its border. At the same time, it has cut off all electricity, food, water and fuel from entering Gaza.
Returning to the Palestinian territory carries risks for Israeli ground forces, which last entered Gaza in 2014. The coastal enclave’s populated is packed in urban zones, and Hamas fighters have an extensive network of underground tunnels to conceal their movements.
In addition, mass displacement of civilians and extensive loss of Palestinian life could erode international support for Israel. Even if Israel were successful in eliminating Hamas, it isn’t clear that it could govern the enclave.
Mkhaimar Abu Saadah, a Gaza-based political analyst, said it would be difficult for Israel to truly uproot Hamas.
“The U.S. stayed in Afghanistan for 20 years, did it end the Taliban?” he said. “The whole world fought against ISIS, is it finished? Maybe as an organization but their thought still lives on.”