old salt wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:16 pm
...all our former Warsaw Pact members came with Soviet legacy weapons which they're still using. Greece has the S-300 air defense system. What do you think they've been donating to Ukraine.
Is your position now that we should not have military alliances ?
My position is that we shouldn't have alliances to fight foes that no longer exist. And if we do? We should....just spitballing here....update the equipment they use at some point over three decades.....so that it's compatible with our allies equipment, instead of our foes equipment. You know: in case you have to fight this foe you think we have.
But THIS is your idea of sparkly-awesome "logistics" is it? Heck, why doesn't the US convert to Soviet parts, and call Putin when we run out?
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
I pointed out that Putin had made his position on Ukraine clear.
Now that he has failed to take all of Ukraine, at great cost, he can be contained by a well armed Ukraine.
Did you hit your head? How many more times are we going to go back and forth on this. Which is it, and for the love of heaven, pick one, and stick to it:
1. Ukraine has more than enough to defend the current 80% it holds, and doesn't need one more bullet from the US
2. Ukraine needs constant supplies from the US to defend the current battle lines.
Pick one, and we can go from there. In this post, you're telling me it's #2, and that Biden can't cut Ukraine off to force them to negotiate.
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
We have stood up to Putin. He's been badly bloodied.
Not according to your own MULTIPLE statements in this thread.
The problem here is that you're upset that this isn't going as you thought it would, just like allll the other examples I gave as to why you don't do step #1. So you want to "take it back" now that the steps you have been championing has what the CIA calls "Blowback". Sorry, that's not how this works. Wars NEVER go as planned. You wanted to stand up to Putin.....that led us to today, with no good way out. You ASKED for this.
Now you're demanding that Biden force Zelensky to the negotiation table, and to concede the last Putin has taken. And you're feigning surprise that Zelensky isn't on board with your "plan".
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
Obama just did sanctions & looked the other way.
Yep. Smart man. Do we have a treaty with Ukraine, or not?
Do you want to avoid pointless war, or not?
You want it all, and I frankly can't believe that I have to explain this to you for the 1,000th time in 10+ years of discussion.
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
The status quo held under Trump while we armed & trained the Ukrainians to defend themselves.
Annnnd enter your partisan dumb*ssery. In what world is sending more and more arms and training that Obama didn't send....the "Status quo".
Trump ramped up the pressure. And you DESPERATELY want to pretend he didn't, now that we've arrived at a place you don't like.
It's so transparently stupid. You won't melt like the Wicked Witch of the West if you acknowledge that Trump played his role. Geezus.
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
...you just can't handle the reality that Putin invaded Ukraine when Obama & Biden were in office & held off when Trump was in office.
He didn't "hold off" when Trump was in office. Riddle me this, with your dumb*ssery: why didn't Putin march into Kiev under Obama.
Go ahead. Dazzle me. (you can't)
More to the point, because as usual, your ego and partisan blowhard-ery makes you unable to pay attention for five minutes: I told you when it happened that Obama did the right thing. You, on the other hand, hit Obama for being weak. So did FoxNation (gee, what a coincidence). Then when Trump started arming Ukraine, what did you do? That's right! You BRAGGED about it. "Isn't this awesome? Trump is strong".
So this sends the signal to Putin that Ukraine is gonna be off limits soon as the US sends them more and more stuff over time. You keep squawking about the messages we send Putin, and how he feels threatened. But here comes your partisan "Xmas Miracle"....somehow, Trump sending arms and training to Ukraine doesn't send a single message to Putin.
Partisan idiocy. Watching a grown man tie himself into knots to blame the Dems for why the sky is blue is just.....painful.
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
obtw...Russian subs returned to their Black Sea homeport & have been launching cruise missiles into Ukraine.
So they didn't shoot the missiles from your special-big-boy sub base in Syria?
....all this so you don't have to say "yeah, you were right, all the stuff Putin did in Syria was utterly pointless."
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
I recall Trump being accused for being soft on Russia when his 2016 platform would not pledge
So what? That ain't what I said, my man, and you know it. It's in this very thread if you "can't remember".
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
...Obama had it all figured out. That's why Putin seized & held Crimea & Donbas enclaves with no opposition. Obama was way ahead on that one.
And here we are: you FINALLY admitting you wanted this war, and for us to "stand up to Putin".
Well, it only took a few weeks. You ASKED FOR THIS. Quit whining like a baby when you got what you asked for here.
And yep, Obama had it all figured out. We didn't blow any money. And no one died on by American money or arms. I think it's SPECTACULAR that you think this is bad, and prefer this war we're witnessing. And you're STiLL mocking Obama for making the correct choice, and hitting Putin economically.
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
I guess the gas lines in the 70's didn't impact you on your tricycle.
Oh no! Not gas lines!
Use your head. Picture how far America would be in 2023 had we stopped using that oil. Conservation. Cars would get smaller. Mass transit makes more sense. Urban sprawl is lessened because it makes more sense to live close to work. Engineers work harder to make materials lighter. Alternative fuel research has a quicker ROI....and on and on and on.
That's how free markets work. Instead? How many millions died because a military "expert" like you whispered to HW Bush "we have no choice but to buy this oil".
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
Are you advocating that we do nothing to help Taiwan ?
Well, look who arrived! Yes!
What happens if China puts controls on Taiwan? Economic slowdown, golden goose is killed, brain drain follows. Works for me. If we're smart, we'll snap up the brain drain for jobs that we cannot currently fill. (We're not smart, sadly)
Do we have a treaty with them, or not? No, right?
And if China REALLY wants to "take over Taiwan"? They can do it without firing a shot. Use your head. Using military force is from the same "the 80's called" mentality that's killing Putin and the Russian people.
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
So you agree with me that we should not have fomented regime change & revolution in Ukraine ? You say that's step #1.
Is it your position we're doing the same thing in Taiwan ?
Yep. Been saying this since we've been on this forum. I'm.....at a loss that you haven't noticed that I've had the same exact bar for this stuff this ENTIRE time, dating back to Laxpower.
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
That we should do nothing to help Taiwan maintain their autonomy & defend themselves against armed intervention from the PRC ? I'm not saying the US should intervene militarily, that's where strategic ambiguity is used effectively.
You don't get steps #1-#7. Just like when Trump started arming Ukraine, arming Taiwan sends a signal.
Who pays for the stupid arms is 100% irrelevant to the message that sends. Or do you think Chinese leaders are freaking idiots?
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
Are you willing to do anything to help Taiwan ? To keep the sea lanes open through the western Pacific ?
Our billions in trade keeps the sea lanes open. Welcome to the 21st century....that's what Obama was trying to tell you, but you didn't want to listen. So yep, just like Obama did? Sanctions. It's how grown ups handle this stuff, who don't think like you do----that war or "talking tough" "fixes everything".
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm
Rant on with your circular logic. I'm done.
I've been using the EXACT SAME LOGIC....regardless of which country, and who is President. Unlike you. And yet you want to claim I'm using circular logic??
That's rich.
Do we have a treaty with said country? No? Then the only thing I'd want to execute are economic sanctions.
Economic sanctions beat the Soviets, Old Salt. Or did that escape your attention, too?