LaxPower Back-Up Stick

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:17 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:12 pm Wow!! What a bunch of feckless twats some are showing themselves to be. Glad I never played on a team with those p$ssies. I'd of had to beat some sense into them.

"A new Gallup poll gave people a binary choice between supporting Ukraine’s efforts to reclaim its territory, and ending the war quickly — even if it meant Russia were allowed to keep conquered territory. A slight majority of Republicans picked the former, but 41 percent were willing to countenance Russia keeping the territory in the name of ending the war. That’s compared to just 16 percent of Democrats who believed the same."

I thought Repugnants were the strong, resolute types. Or is that just more wishful thinking on their part?

Pusillanimity is not attractive, ya twinks.

Can you translate your thoughts here into English? It sounds like you have an interesting point to make. Nothing about the war in Ukraine matters in terms of what Republicans and Democrats think it will be. The only question that needs to be asked is will Putin back down? Is Putin bluffing about using some of his nukes or not? How many other countries will be sucked into this vortex that Putin is creating? The USA is going to send Ukraine 31 Abrams tanks. That sounds impressive until you look at the width and breath of combat operations in Ukraine. A drop in the bucket does not even begin to describe what a pathetic symbolic gesture this is.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:51 pm I wonder if Putin ever listened to Bob Dylan?

njbill wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:28 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:51 pm I wonder if Putin ever listened to Bob Dylan?

I don't know, but he did attend Paul McCartney's concert on Red Square and did dance (sorta) to Back in the USSR.

Maybe Vlad should listen to the lyrics of Yesterday and Let it Be.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:12 pm Wow!! What a bunch of feckless twats some are showing themselves to be. Glad I never played on a team with those p$ssies. I'd of had to beat some sense into them.

"A new Gallup poll gave people a binary choice between supporting Ukraine’s efforts to reclaim its territory, and ending the war quickly — even if it meant Russia were allowed to keep conquered territory. A slight majority of Republicans picked the former, but 41 percent were willing to countenance Russia keeping the territory in the name of ending the war. That’s compared to just 16 percent of Democrats who believed the same."

I thought Repugnants were the strong, resolute types. Or is that just more wishful thinking on their part?

Pusillanimity is not attractive, ya twinks.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:23 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:17 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:12 pm Wow!! What a bunch of feckless twats some are showing themselves to be. Glad I never played on a team with those p$ssies. I'd of had to beat some sense into them.

"A new Gallup poll gave people a binary choice between supporting Ukraine’s efforts to reclaim its territory, and ending the war quickly — even if it meant Russia were allowed to keep conquered territory. A slight majority of Republicans picked the former, but 41 percent were willing to countenance Russia keeping the territory in the name of ending the war. That’s compared to just 16 percent of Democrats who believed the same."

I thought Repugnants were the strong, resolute types. Or is that just more wishful thinking on their part?

Pusillanimity is not attractive, ya twinks.

Can you translate your thoughts here into English? It sounds like you have an interesting point to make. Nothing about the war in Ukraine matters in terms of what Republicans and Democrats think it will be. The only question that needs to be asked is will Putin back down? Is Putin bluffing about using some of his nukes or not? How many other countries will be sucked into this vortex that Putin is creating? The USA is going to send Ukraine 31 Abrams tanks. That sounds impressive until you look at the width and breath of combat operations in Ukraine. A drop in the bucket does not even begin to describe what a pathetic symbolic gesture this is.

Douché...

"As Alzheimer's progresses into the middle stages of dementia, most people can still read, but typically this ability will gradually decline over time. This can vary, with some people with mid-stage dementia being able to continue to enjoy reading, especially if it's been a life-long habit. What often appears to decline is the ability to understand or remember what they're reading—that is, the comprehension. This is related to the ability to understand what words mean and what a whole sentence is conveying. Additionally, when memory is impaired, it may be difficult to remember what it is that was read."

https://www.verywellhealth.com/reading- ... sion-98565

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:14 am

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:00 am I said NATO HAD become obsolete. Remember the panic in 2014 when NATO had to reinforce the E flank in Poland ? The scramble for tanks then. The US had no tanks left in Europe, even in storage. We've been shipping rotational Heavy Armor brigades back & forth on 9 mos rotational deployments. We're still having to do so. All the promises of Leopard tanks are a joke. The EUros didn't have enough to send to NATO's E flank. We had to ship US tanks back & forth. Except for a few, the Leopards being promised to Ukraine have to be pulled from storage & made operational. The EUros are not sending volume of weapons to Ukraine. Their inventory was already very thin & critical US stocks are being depleted.

You're not listening. You never do. The "panic" was over the ASSUMPTION of Russian military superiority. A superiority that we know doesn't exist.

If Russia attacks a NATO nation, the REAL military power shows up.....how long before Russia is absolutely obliterated? NATO is plenty strong.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm Good grief. NATO designed to be weak & overly dependent on the US ? Spare us your theory on that design.

Without question. What the F have you been watching for the last 30 years.

Look at Afghanistan. You're telling me that NATO wanted to stay. So why didn't they? Because they can't come up with the 2,500 piddly troops in what YOU are telling me isn't even a war zone WITHOUT US help. The US wants to call all the shots, so that's how NATO is put together. If Germany or France wanted to lead NATO? They'd pour in the military resources at a FAR greater rate than the US does.
NATO is structured to defend EUrope, not project & sustain power overseas, like we are.
They need US intel & logistics.

The idea that this is even up for debate is laughable.
I'm laughing at you debating yourself.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm We're already communicating via the nature of the weapons we're sending & the restraints we're placing on their use, & the weapons we're not willing to send which would make possible attacks inside Russia.

Great! Then again, why aren't you commending Biden for doing----once again----EXACTLY what you are advocating? You're not cheering at all....you won't stop complaining.
In his rhetoric & statyements, Biden's not being EXACT about anything.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm ..& it's unrealistic to think it can all be taken back. That's what Gen Milley's been telling Biden (& the rest of the world).

That's not standing up to Putin, and you know it. This fails YOUR metric----the need to stand up to Putin, and YOUR metric that if you give Putin a little, he'll come back for more.
We're stopping Putin cold in Ukraine. What more do you expect ? Do you want US forces to enter combat ?

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm Have you seen the reactions of the vets who served there ?

Sure have. It's called mission creep for a reason.

If it's not a war zone, how come we were losing 5-10 soldiers a year, KIA?

NATO can manage 2,500 soldiers. The fact that they're not sending that in for peacekeeping tells me all I want to know: obviously it's not worth it.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm So declare victory & end it, before it escalates & spins out of control. So long as Nuland & the neocons are calling the shots, the mission is revolution & regime change in Russia. Open ended war in Ukraine is the means to that end.

YOU asked for this. You're pretending that you're not smart enough to know that Ukrainians don't want to lose 20% of their country.
They lost most of that territory in 2014 when they didn't bother to defend it. Now, 8 years later, we're supposed to enable them to take it all back ? Spare me the propaganda about Ukraine's glorious nationalism. They were the fiercest of the Soviets during the Cold War. We trust them at our peril.

You're a soldier... how fast would you sue for piece having lost 20% of America under your watch?
DUMB analogy. I'd have been fired for not defending it 8 years before.

These are not honest complaints. EVERYONE HERE want this stupid war to end, OS.
Don't be so sure of that. Some (here & in the Biden Admin) don't want it to end until there's a regime change in the Kremlin & Putin's deposed. They have a fantasy of war crimes trials & reparations -- which can only attained if Russia is thoroughly defeated militarily & occupied.

We're paying the price, yet again, for playing global cop, and meddling in other country's affairs.
Defund the police, unless Ukraine is willing to negotiate.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm Not necessarily. We can give them what they need to hold what they have.

You keep saying this. This is IMPOSSIBLE. It's impossible to protect what's left of Ukraine from Russian advances......while at the exact same time, not give them enough weapons to advance.
No it's not. That's what we've been doing.

Doubly so because Ukrainians don't want to give up 20% of their country, OS. And triply so given YOUR parameters...that YOU think if you give Putin an inch, he'll come back for more.Not if the Ukrainians defend themselves this time. I'm not for ending ongoing sales of defensive weapons (like our EU allies are doing, rather than donating).

https://sofrep.com/news/russias-soaring ... thing-war/

Russia’s Soaring Death Toll is a Gloomy Insight on Putin’s All-or-Nothing War
by SOFREP, 9 hours ago

The conflict in eastern Ukraine has been raging for nearly two years now, with no end in sight. The death toll is at an all-time high, and a closer look reveals that most of the casualties are from Russia’s poor tactics on the battlefield. This harsh insight into Russian strategies is cause for alarm and should be addressed by the international community.

Last year, after months of tension between Russia and Ukraine, Putin sent his troops to occupy parts of eastern Ukraine near Donetsk and Luhansk—the region known as Donbas. Since then, both sides have accused each other of launching offensives and war crimes against civilians. Though it’s hard to get accurate numbers due to incomplete records on both sides, estimates suggest that more than 100,000 people have died or been wounded since the war began. General Mark Milley recently stated that this number could be closer to 200k when you include losses from Russia’s side alone (180k dead/wounded). Ukrainian civilian deaths are estimated at around 30k plus 100k military casualties. The number of Russian troops killed and wounded in Ukraine is estimated to be approaching 200,000 according to the US and other Western officials – a stark symbol of the toll taken by President Putin’s invasion of eastern Ukraine near Bakhmut and Soledar towns.

The soaring death tolls among Russian troops in Ukraine are a devastating reminder of the impact of the Russian invasion. In an attempt to seize the entire eastern Donbas region, Russia tried to push toward Ukrainian regions multiple times but had been met with drastic failures. In addition, research conducted by non-governmental organizations such as Human Rights Watch suggests that Russia is responsible for significant violations of international humanitarian law during this period, including unlawful killings, indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets, torture, arbitrary detention, and forced displacement.

“Hundreds of Russian cluster munition attacks were documented, reported, or alleged in at least 10 of Ukraine’s 24 regions, killing an estimated 689 civilians between February and July 2022. Human Rights Watch documented Russian forces’ use of cluster munitions in Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mykolaiv, and Donetsk regions,” the report notes.

As evidenced by recent reports from international organizations such as Human Rights Watch (HRW) and Amnesty International (AI), these tactics have resulted in high levels of suffering among non-combatants as well as Russian soldiers alike – many of whom are young conscripts without adequate training or supplies which are being forced into combat roles against their will. According to a report released by HRW earlier this year, “the human cost [of this conflict] continues to be staggering: hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties each month from indiscriminate shelling attacks alone.”

The aggressive Russian tactics can also be seen in reports from journalists who have visited eastern Ukraine over the last few months. They describe a landscape littered with destroyed homes and buildings and mass graves filled with Russian soldiers killed in battle. Furthermore, some Ukrainian citizens interviewed claim that children have been conscripted into military service or forced to fight against their will – a clear violation of human rights legislation by Moscow’s leadership. Clearly, Putin’s aggression has had far-reaching consequences for its own citizens and Ukraine’s civilians, who have suffered immensely throughout this conflict.

In addition to sending ill-prepared troops into battle, Russia has employed various military tactics that make it difficult for Western forces to protect their own soldiers and civilians nearby. This includes using heavy artillery such as tanks, missiles, and mortars which can cause extensive damage in populated areas; deploying snipers who take cover among civilians; arming rebels with sophisticated weapons systems; carrying out mass arrests without due process; and allowing groups like “Little Green Men” (unidentified militants) to terrorize local populations.

What makes these figures even more alarming is evidence suggesting that Russia has been sending poorly trained recruits, including former convicts, to the front lines to pave the way for more seasoned fighters. This approach has resulted in thousands of deaths among those expendable human resources while stalling progress toward peace talks.

With civilian casualties reaching an all-time high and no sign of peace talks in sight, it’s clear that something needs to be done before things escalate even further.

Putin and the Russians’ Downfall
The increasing death toll in the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine is an increasingly grim reminder of the grave consequences of President Putin’s invasion.

Russia’s tactics in eastern Ukraine reveal much about Putin’s approach to the conflict; he values victory above all else, even if it means sacrificing his own soldiers. This strategy has proven highly effective before, with many battles ending in Russian victories within a short period of time. However, this may not continue indefinitely due to increased military pressure from Ukraine and sanctions from Western countries—notably those imposed after Moscow annexed Crimea in 2014.

Some analysts believe that Moscow views the city of Bakhmut as a critical point in its attempt to gain control over eastern Donbas and has flooded the area with troops despite knowing that doing so would result in an excessive loss of life. If true, then this tactic highlights an all-too-common willingness among some political leaders to risk civilian lives when pursuing their objectives.

Despite widespread condemnation from foreign governments and international organizations such as the United Nations, there has yet to be no meaningful progress toward preventing further loss of life among Russian forces in Ukraine. The current situation, therefore, seems unlikely to improve anytime soon and may continue until a decisive victory is achieved by one side or another. Until then, the world will probably remain witness to stories of needless suffering at the hands of those who prioritize strategic objectives over human rights considerations.

In addition to illustrating Putin’s desire for success at any cost, his strategy demonstrates his willingness to use unconventional methods, such as deploying untrained recruits and convicted criminals onto the battlefield rather than relying solely on experienced troops from Russia’s armed forces. This indicates that he does not feel limited by traditional rules of warfare or constrained by public opinion back home—and indeed, polls show that much of Russia remains firmly supportive of its president despite international criticism.

Given this context, it is clear that President Putin’s invasion has had tragic consequences for both sides involved in this conflict – but especially for those within his own borders who have borne the brunt of its most dire impacts. As such, it is crucial that international organizations continue to closely monitor these developments – while also intervening wherever possible – to ensure an end to further bloodshed and suffering on all sides.

Without swift action from world leaders, there’s no telling how much worse things could become for innocent civilians caught in the crossfire between two countries locked in a seemingly endless conflict over land rights and power struggles between political leaders. Our duty as citizens is to pressure our governments into taking action to protect those caught up in this battle for control so we can finally see some resolution after five long years of bloodshed and violence.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:53 pm Here ya go afan. Hot off the presses. I'm not the only vet frustrated with the lack of diplomatic engagement & pressure to end the carnage, ...no matter the stupid, illogical accidental borders.

https://sofrep.com/news/russias-soaring ... thing-war/

Russia’s Soaring Death Toll is a Gloomy Insight on Putin’s All-or-Nothing War
by SOFREP, 9 hours ago

The conflict in eastern Ukraine has been raging for nearly two years now, with no end in sight. The death toll is at an all-time high, and a closer look reveals that most of the casualties are from Russia’s poor tactics on the battlefield. This harsh insight into Russian strategies is cause for alarm and should be addressed by the international community.

Last year, after months of tension between Russia and Ukraine, Putin sent his troops to occupy parts of eastern Ukraine near Donetsk and Luhansk—the region known as Donbas. Since then, both sides have accused each other of launching offensives and war crimes against civilians. Though it’s hard to get accurate numbers due to incomplete records on both sides, estimates suggest that more than 100,000 people have died or been wounded since the war began. General Mark Milley recently stated that this number could be closer to 200k when you include losses from Russia’s side alone (180k dead/wounded). Ukrainian civilian deaths are estimated at around 30k plus 100k military casualties. The number of Russian troops killed and wounded in Ukraine is estimated to be approaching 200,000 according to the US and other Western officials – a stark symbol of the toll taken by President Putin’s invasion of eastern Ukraine near Bakhmut and Soledar towns.

The soaring death tolls among Russian troops in Ukraine are a devastating reminder of the impact of the Russian invasion. In an attempt to seize the entire eastern Donbas region, Russia tried to push toward Ukrainian regions multiple times but had been met with drastic failures. In addition, research conducted by non-governmental organizations such as Human Rights Watch suggests that Russia is responsible for significant violations of international humanitarian law during this period, including unlawful killings, indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets, torture, arbitrary detention, and forced displacement.

“Hundreds of Russian cluster munition attacks were documented, reported, or alleged in at least 10 of Ukraine’s 24 regions, killing an estimated 689 civilians between February and July 2022. Human Rights Watch documented Russian forces’ use of cluster munitions in Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mykolaiv, and Donetsk regions,” the report notes.

As evidenced by recent reports from international organizations such as Human Rights Watch (HRW) and Amnesty International (AI), these tactics have resulted in high levels of suffering among non-combatants as well as Russian soldiers alike – many of whom are young conscripts without adequate training or supplies which are being forced into combat roles against their will. According to a report released by HRW earlier this year, “the human cost [of this conflict] continues to be staggering: hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties each month from indiscriminate shelling attacks alone.”

The aggressive Russian tactics can also be seen in reports from journalists who have visited eastern Ukraine over the last few months. They describe a landscape littered with destroyed homes and buildings and mass graves filled with Russian soldiers killed in battle. Furthermore, some Ukrainian citizens interviewed claim that children have been conscripted into military service or forced to fight against their will – a clear violation of human rights legislation by Moscow’s leadership. Clearly, Putin’s aggression has had far-reaching consequences for its own citizens and Ukraine’s civilians, who have suffered immensely throughout this conflict.

In addition to sending ill-prepared troops into battle, Russia has employed various military tactics that make it difficult for Western forces to protect their own soldiers and civilians nearby. This includes using heavy artillery such as tanks, missiles, and mortars which can cause extensive damage in populated areas; deploying snipers who take cover among civilians; arming rebels with sophisticated weapons systems; carrying out mass arrests without due process; and allowing groups like “Little Green Men” (unidentified militants) to terrorize local populations.

What makes these figures even more alarming is evidence suggesting that Russia has been sending poorly trained recruits, including former convicts, to the front lines to pave the way for more seasoned fighters. This approach has resulted in thousands of deaths among those expendable human resources while stalling progress toward peace talks.

With civilian casualties reaching an all-time high and no sign of peace talks in sight, it’s clear that something needs to be done before things escalate even further.

Putin and the Russians’ Downfall
The increasing death toll in the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine is an increasingly grim reminder of the grave consequences of President Putin’s invasion.

Russia’s tactics in eastern Ukraine reveal much about Putin’s approach to the conflict; he values victory above all else, even if it means sacrificing his own soldiers. This strategy has proven highly effective before, with many battles ending in Russian victories within a short period of time. However, this may not continue indefinitely due to increased military pressure from Ukraine and sanctions from Western countries—notably those imposed after Moscow annexed Crimea in 2014.

Some analysts believe that Moscow views the city of Bakhmut as a critical point in its attempt to gain control over eastern Donbas and has flooded the area with troops despite knowing that doing so would result in an excessive loss of life. If true, then this tactic highlights an all-too-common willingness among some political leaders to risk civilian lives when pursuing their objectives.

Despite widespread condemnation from foreign governments and international organizations such as the United Nations, there has yet to be no meaningful progress toward preventing further loss of life among Russian forces in Ukraine. The current situation, therefore, seems unlikely to improve anytime soon and may continue until a decisive victory is achieved by one side or another. Until then, the world will probably remain witness to stories of needless suffering at the hands of those who prioritize strategic objectives over human rights considerations.

In addition to illustrating Putin’s desire for success at any cost, his strategy demonstrates his willingness to use unconventional methods, such as deploying untrained recruits and convicted criminals onto the battlefield rather than relying solely on experienced troops from Russia’s armed forces. This indicates that he does not feel limited by traditional rules of warfare or constrained by public opinion back home—and indeed, polls show that much of Russia remains firmly supportive of its president despite international criticism.

Given this context, it is clear that President Putin’s invasion has had tragic consequences for both sides involved in this conflict – but especially for those within his own borders who have borne the brunt of its most dire impacts. As such, it is crucial that international organizations continue to closely monitor these developments – while also intervening wherever possible – to ensure an end to further bloodshed and suffering on all sides.

Without swift action from world leaders, there’s no telling how much worse things could become for innocent civilians caught in the crossfire between two countries locked in a seemingly endless conflict over land rights and power struggles between political leaders. Our duty as citizens is to pressure our governments into taking action to protect those caught up in this battle for control so we can finally see some resolution after five long years of bloodshed and violence.

njbill wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:13 pm Fareed Zakaria said on his show yesterday that in the 1950s Khrushchev decided that Crimea should be removed from the Russian federation and made part of the Ukrainian federation. He did not say why Khrushchev made that decision.

I do know that when the vote was taken after the break up of the Soviet Union as to whether Crimea should be part of Russia or Ukraine, the Crimean citizens voted about 55% in favor of being part of Ukraine.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:34 pm NATO is structured to defend EUrope, not project & sustain power overseas, like we are.
They need US intel & logistics.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:34 pm In his rhetoric & statyements, Biden's not being EXACT about anything.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm We're stopping Putin cold in Ukraine. What more do you expect ?

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm They lost most of that territory in 2014 when they didn't bother to defend it.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:53 pm Here ya go afan. Hot off the presses. I'm not the only vet frustrated with the lack of diplomatic engagement & pressure to end the carnage, ...no matter the stupid, illogical accidental borders.

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:57 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:34 pm NATO is structured to defend EUrope, not project & sustain power overseas, like we are.
They need US intel & logistics.

Germany can't figure out logistics?

They're weak on purpose. No USA, NATO is nothing. That was true 50 years ago, and is true today. It's why America was called a superpower....and every other NATO member...wasn't. But please, keep telling me that NATO isn't designed to be weak....while at the same time, tell me that the Germans (snicker) just can't manage logistics. Are we talking about the same Germany?
We're talking about a pacifist Germany (in case you've been sleeping). NATO was designed to defend EUrope. Full stop. Not to project power globally like the US, due to our global treaty alliance obligations. That doesn't make NATO weak unless they neglect to prepare for their raison d'etre.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:34 pm In his rhetoric & statements, Biden's not being EXACT about anything.

That's right. You told me this is 'strategic ambiguity" when Republicans do it. When a Dem does it? Oh, that's wrong.
You use strategic ambiguity to stay out of a war & keep your potential enemy guessing. When you're in a war, you need to tell your citizens, allies & their citizens W-T-F you've signed them up for & where you're taking them.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm We're stopping Putin cold in Ukraine. What more do you expect ?

You tell me! YOU are the one who wanted us to stand up to Putin. So....Biden did what you asked.

Now that he did it, you're lying to me, telling me that you didn't ask for this. We can't have a conversation if you're just going to lie about what you've said in the past. Biden stood up to Putin & single-handedly saved Ukraine & all of EUrope, Now what ? Just keep fueling the meat grinder ? Where are all the soft power diplomats we've heard so much about ?

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm They lost most of that territory in 2014 when they didn't bother to defend it.

So did S Korea for a time. And in Vietnam. And Kuwait. Sensing a pattern yet? They didn't defend themselves, so here we come.....
You are really wrong about the S Koreans & the Vietnamese. Kuwait was our long standing Persian Gulf ally. The Emir visited us at USNA & gave us Mids amnesty, wiping our records clean of demerits for minor offenses.


For a guy who thinks he knows military and US History, a whole mess of stuff sails right over your head.

We're running the Global Cop playbook....and I think it's just ADORABLE that you're pretending that you don't know this, and are pretending to clutch your pearls.

1. Fund "some guy", foment revolution/regime change. Arm/train/fund. There's no plan. There's no exit strategy
2. Conflict happens
3. At some point, war happens.
4. US gets more involved as things get more intense.
5. US eventually sends troops. NATO sends some token troops to "help", when the US is doing all the work
6. The troops stay there, and the mission changes (mission creep)
7. We're there 50 years later, and if you DARE question #1-#5, guys like you will call you an idiot, and tell you that "gee, you just don't have all this figure out like we do".
So let's end it in Ukraine now, before we have to send our troops.

Just today, you were yelling at me about step #6......but you're too daft, like all of you "military experts" to understand that the problem was #1.

We're at #4....and you're here lecturing me about how we need to stop getting to #7. It's cute. I LOVE that you think that we can stop arriving at #7...but changing the (snicker) mix of weapons.....like this is going to magically stop the US 50 year+ old Modus.

This is YOUR blueprint. But please, try and tell me it isn't. You asked for this. In a matter of years, you'll be on here telling me that "we can't pull our troops out of Ukraine" when we hit step #6.I'm saying end this now, let Russia keep what they've won & not send US troops there in the first place.

Like we did in S Korea. Or Iraq. Or Syria. Or Kuwait, Or, or, or....still have troops and bases there. But please, by all means tell me "each situation is different". Which explains why we just so happen to follow the same pattern, and just so happen to STILL have troops in these countries YEARS and DECADES after step #1.

And the best part? You're telling us that we HAVE to start step #1 with Taiwan....with your insistence that we send them tanks.
We need to deliver the tanks that Taiwan has already contracted to pay for & to sell them whatever else they want to buy to protect themselves. That's all I've said we should do, so far.

You'll never learn. They literally taught you this MO at the Academy. We've been having this conversation for 15+ years now....and you STILL think all this makes perfect sense, and that anyone who dares question this MO is dumb, and you have it allllll figured out.

There are Academy grads right now, whispering into Biden's ear, pushing step #4....and YOU know it.
Maybe it's because Gen Milley is not a West Point grad, it's obvious he doesn't want to take step 4. He keeps saying this war will end at the negotiating table.

But sure. I'm the idiot. ProTip: Remember to clutch your pearls when we hit step #4. And act SOOPER surprised!
Nothing will surprise me with Toria Nuland pulling the strings on this Weekend at Joe's dummy.
He gave us the Afghan pullout fiasco & now he's letting a balloon shootdown snowball into a major incident because he won't tell us what's going on & you can't believe anything his admin spins out.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm We're talking about a pacifist Germany (in case you've been sleeping). NATO was designed to defend EUrope. Full stop. Not to project power globally like the US, due to our global treaty alliance obligations. That doesn't make NATO weak unless they neglect to prepare for their raison d'etre

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:34 pm ou use strategic ambiguity to stay out of a war & keep your potential enemy guessing. When you're in a war, you need to tell your citizens, allies & their citizens W-T-F you've signed them up for & where you're taking them.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm Biden stood up to Putin & single-handedly saved Ukraine & all of EUrope

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Now what ? Just keep fueling the meat grinder ? Where are all the soft power diplomats we've heard so much about ?

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm You are really wrong about the S Koreans & the Vietnamese.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Kuwait was our long standing Persian Gulf ally. The Emir visited us at USNA & gave us Mids amnesty, wiping our records clean of demerits for minor offenses.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm I'm saying end this now, let Russia keep what they've won & not send US troops there in the first place.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm We need to deliver the tanks that Taiwan has already contracted to pay for & to sell them whatever else they want to buy to protect themselves. That's all I've said we should do, so far.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Maybe it's because Gen Milley is not a West Point grad, it's obvious he doesn't want to take step 4. He keeps saying this war will end at the negotiating table.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Nothing will surprise me with Toria Nuland pulling the strings on this Weekend at Joe's dummy.

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm We're talking about a pacifist Germany (in case you've been sleeping). NATO was designed to defend EUrope. Full stop. Not to project power globally like the US, due to our global treaty alliance obligations. That doesn't make NATO weak unless they neglect to prepare for their raison d'etre

Their reason for existence was to counter the Soviets. But sure, pretend that's not the case.
The mission immediately became to counter a revanchist Russia & incorporate the militaries of new members & their Soviet equipment & tactics.
Logistics are a German specialty. But sure, pretend that's not the case, and that they can't handle that because they're "pacifists".
It's a real feat of logistics to move stuff from Germany to Poland, ...unless the roads are blocked with protesters.
The USAF have 272 heavy lift transport aircraft (C-5/C-17). The Luftwaffe have zero.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:34 pm You use strategic ambiguity to stay out of a war & keep your potential enemy guessing. When you're in a war, you need to tell your citizens, allies & their citizens W-T-F you've signed them up for & where you're taking them.

Yeah. Trump didn't do that. You didn't care, and called it (wait for it) strategic ambiguity. But sure, lie to me and tell me you didn't do that.
How many wars did Trump take us into.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pmBiden stood up to Putin & single-handedly saved Ukraine & all of EUrope

Nope. 20% is gone. You're not following your own MO, and you know it. YOU gave me links and citations over the last five years telling us that you can't give Putin an inch, or he'll take more. BS. My position has consistently been that we can deter & contain Russia from further expansion with defensive military aid for Ukraine.
You're just upset that your own logic landed us here. And the logic of the "always be the tough guy" Republican mantra. Stand up to Putin. Stand up to China. Oh, and don't think before you do it. Thinking is bad. How many billions did we blow on Trump's fake trade war? Who cares, dude, "we stood up to China"!!I'm disappointed & frustrated that we meddled in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting 3 revolutions & regime changes. promising NATO membership, with Victoria Nuland handing out sandwiches in Maidan Sq, telling the EUros to go F themselves.

Or how about your latest parrot of the Republican brag "Putin didn't invade when Trump was in office". Remember that one? Why did you all say that? Because you think that a man with a gold plated toilet is a tough guy, because of that sooper cool little R....and that Putin was afraid to do it.
We said it because it was true. Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to expand NATO, make him give up Crimea or lecture him on the world stage. He knew Trump would not unleash idiots like Nuland & Soros to foment unrest in Russia & their near abroad.

And now here we are. Keep acting like YOU didn't land us where we are.
OK genius, what should we have done to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine ? Oh, I know. Rewind back to '92 & don't convince them to give up their nucs. What could go wrong ?

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Now what ? Just keep fueling the meat grinder ? Where are all the soft power diplomats we've heard so much about ?

Well, let's check the American MO, Old Salt......what do YOU think is gonna happen? Have a look at steps #1-#7 and get back to me.

Great news, though! We stood up to Putin! So really, ,we're all set!

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm You are really wrong about the S Koreans & the Vietnamese.

Clearly not. If they defended themselves the way you are demanding the Ukrainians defend themselves? What the heck did they need US troops for? The MRE's?

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Kuwait was our long standing Persian Gulf ally. The Emir visited us at USNA & gave us Mids amnesty, wiping our records clean of demerits for minor offenses.

That's great. So what? No treaty with them, just like Ukraine.

You treat treaties as CRITICAL....until you don't. No treaty with Kuwait, my man. ProTip: don't do step #1. Get the pattern yet? We armed and trained and funded Saddam....who then took that largesse, and hit Kuwait. ProTip reminder: don't do step #1. (you should REALLY be writing this down)
ProTip : we needed Persian Gulf oil in the '80's & '90's.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm I'm saying end this now, let Russia keep what they've won & not send US troops there in the first place.

That's not how this works, and you know it. You wrote the book on this stuff. Welcome to it.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm We need to deliver the tanks that Taiwan has already contracted to pay for & to sell them whatever else they want to buy to protect themselves. That's all I've said we should do, so far.

Oh yeah. Because you're convinced that this isn't a pattern. So you jump into step#1 without bothering to think through what comes next. Because you don't care, and aren't capable of thinking ahead.
What are you ranting about now. All I've said about Taiwan is that we should sell them whatever military stuff, to defend themselves, that they're willing to pay for.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Maybe it's because Gen Milley is not a West Point grad, it's obvious he doesn't want to take step 4. He keeps saying this war will end at the negotiating table.

Sure. But that doesn't mean we're not hitting the other steps.
It does not guarantee that we will.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Nothing will surprise me with Toria Nuland pulling the strings on this Weekend at Joe's dummy.

That's right.....pretend that every President we've had hasn't followed the above steps, and didn't have the same Generals in their ear.....just like you, insisting on steps #1-#7, and telling everyone who will listen that you have to INSANE to deviate from it. Hence, you're incessant whining about daring to get the F out of Afghanistan, and violating your trusty an inviolable steps #6 & #7.
The Generals got us out of combat ops in Iraq & Afghanistan. They just wanted to leave a small residual force, who would not be in combat, to advise & enable the local security forces. A small investment with a huge payoff, when used. Your inability to grasp this nuance makes it impossible to have a rational discussion with you. It works.

Oh, and don't forget to mock anyone who dares deviate from those steps.
That's your style. In teeny bopper social media terms.

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:59 am

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm We're talking about a pacifist Germany (in case you've been sleeping). NATO was designed to defend EUrope. Full stop. Not to project power globally like the US, due to our global treaty alliance obligations. That doesn't make NATO weak unless they neglect to prepare for their raison d'etre

Their reason for existence was to counter the Soviets. But sure, pretend that's not the case.
The mission immediately became to counter a revanchist Russia & incorporate the militaries of new members & their Soviet equipment & tactics.
Logistics are a German specialty. But sure, pretend that's not the case, and that they can't handle that because they're "pacifists".
It's a real feat of logistics to move stuff from Germany to Poland, ...unless the roads are blocked with protesters.
The USAF have 272 heavy lift transport aircraft (C-5/C-17). The Luftwaffe have zero.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:34 pm You use strategic ambiguity to stay out of a war & keep your potential enemy guessing. When you're in a war, you need to tell your citizens, allies & their citizens W-T-F you've signed them up for & where you're taking them.

Yeah. Trump didn't do that. You didn't care, and called it (wait for it) strategic ambiguity. But sure, lie to me and tell me you didn't do that.
How many wars did Trump take us into.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pmBiden stood up to Putin & single-handedly saved Ukraine & all of EUrope

Nope. 20% is gone. You're not following your own MO, and you know it. YOU gave me links and citations over the last five years telling us that you can't give Putin an inch, or he'll take more. BS. My position has consistently been that we can deter & contain Russia from further expansion with defensive military aid for Ukraine.
You're just upset that your own logic landed us here. And the logic of the "always be the tough guy" Republican mantra. Stand up to Putin. Stand up to China. Oh, and don't think before you do it. Thinking is bad. How many billions did we blow on Trump's fake trade war? Who cares, dude, "we stood up to China"!!I'm disappointed & frustrated that we meddled in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting 3 revolutions & regime changes. promising NATO membership, with Victoria Nuland handing out sandwiches in Maidan Sq, telling the EUros to go F themselves.

Or how about your latest parrot of the Republican brag "Putin didn't invade when Trump was in office". Remember that one? Why did you all say that? Because you think that a man with a gold plated toilet is a tough guy, because of that sooper cool little R....and that Putin was afraid to do it.
We said it because it was true. Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to expand NATO, make him give up Crimea or lecture him on the world stage. He knew Trump would not unleash idiots like Nuland & Soros to foment unrest in Russia & their near abroad.

And now here we are. Keep acting like YOU didn't land us where we are.
OK genius, what should we have done to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine ? Oh, I know. Rewind back to '92 & don't convince them to give up their nucs. What could go wrong ?

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Now what ? Just keep fueling the meat grinder ? Where are all the soft power diplomats we've heard so much about ?

Well, let's check the American MO, Old Salt......what do YOU think is gonna happen? Have a look at steps #1-#7 and get back to me.

Great news, though! We stood up to Putin! So really, ,we're all set!

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm You are really wrong about the S Koreans & the Vietnamese.

Clearly not. If they defended themselves the way you are demanding the Ukrainians defend themselves? What the heck did they need US troops for? The MRE's?

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Kuwait was our long standing Persian Gulf ally. The Emir visited us at USNA & gave us Mids amnesty, wiping our records clean of demerits for minor offenses.

That's great. So what? No treaty with them, just like Ukraine.

You treat treaties as CRITICAL....until you don't. No treaty with Kuwait, my man. ProTip: don't do step #1. Get the pattern yet? We armed and trained and funded Saddam....who then took that largesse, and hit Kuwait. ProTip reminder: don't do step #1. (you should REALLY be writing this down)
ProTip : we needed Persian Gulf oil in the '80's & '90's.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm I'm saying end this now, let Russia keep what they've won & not send US troops there in the first place.

That's not how this works, and you know it. You wrote the book on this stuff. Welcome to it.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm We need to deliver the tanks that Taiwan has already contracted to pay for & to sell them whatever else they want to buy to protect themselves. That's all I've said we should do, so far.

Oh yeah. Because you're convinced that this isn't a pattern. So you jump into step#1 without bothering to think through what comes next. Because you don't care, and aren't capable of thinking ahead.
What are you ranting about now. All I've said about Taiwan is that we should sell them whatever military stuff, to defend themselves, that they're willing to pay for.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Maybe it's because Gen Milley is not a West Point grad, it's obvious he doesn't want to take step 4. He keeps saying this war will end at the negotiating table.

Sure. But that doesn't mean we're not hitting the other steps.
It does not guarantee that we will.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm Nothing will surprise me with Toria Nuland pulling the strings on this Weekend at Joe's dummy.

That's right.....pretend that every President we've had hasn't followed the above steps, and didn't have the same Generals in their ear.....just like you, insisting on steps #1-#7, and telling everyone who will listen that you have to INSANE to deviate from it. Hence, you're incessant whining about daring to get the F out of Afghanistan, and violating your trusty an inviolable steps #6 & #7.
The Generals got us out of combat ops in Iraq & Afghanistan. They just wanted to leave a small residual force, who would not be in combat, to advise & enable the local security forces. A small investment with a huge payoff, when used. Your inability to grasp this nuance makes it impossible to have a rational discussion with you. It works.

Oh, and don't forget to mock anyone who dares deviate from those steps.
That's your style. In teeny bopper social media terms.

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:59 am ]The mission immediately became to counter a revanchist Russia & incorporate the militaries of new members & their Soviet equipment & tactics.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm It's a real feat of logistics to move stuff from Germany to Poland, ...unless the roads are blocked with protesters.
The USAF have 272 heavy lift transport aircraft (C-5/C-17). The Luftwaffe have zero.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm How many wars did Trump take us into.

old salt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pmBS. My position has consistently been that we can deter & contain Russia from further expansion with defensive military aid for Ukraine.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm I'm disappointed & frustrated that we meddled in Ukraine's internal affairs, fomenting 3 revolutions & regime changes. promising NATO membership, with Victoria Nuland handing out sandwiches in Maidan Sq, telling the EUros to go F themselves.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm We said it because it was true. Putin knew that Trump wasn't going to expand NATO, make him give up Crimea or lecture him on the world stage.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm OK genius, what should we have done to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine ? Oh, I know. Rewind back to '92 & don't convince them to give up their nucs. What could go wrong ?

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm ProTip : we needed Persian Gulf oil in the '80's & '90's.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm What are you ranting about now. All I've said about Taiwan is that we should sell them whatever military stuff, to defend themselves, that they're willing to pay for.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:11 pm The Generals got us out of combat ops in Iraq & Afghanistan. They just wanted to leave a small residual force, who would not be in combat, to advise & enable the local security forces. A small investment with a huge payoff, when used. Your inability to grasp this nuance makes it impossible to have a rational discussion with you. It works.