All things Chinese CoronaVirus

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yale preventive medicine and public health specialist Dr. David Katz on Maher's show last night advocating the "middle ground" between total shutdown and say, the Sweden model with perhaps a bit more in terms or protecting vulnerable populations while allowing herd immunity to take control.

He makes a lot of sense. I'd surely be interested in what some of the science-based folks here think of his suggestions.

sweden has taken a lot of flack. i've been watching them closely.
a few days ago their top guy said their models suggest they may be several weeks from herd immunity, and that what they have so far has slowed the spread. they are doing increased testing and admitting that more (even though it was supposed to be a pillar) to protect seniors needs to be done.

they crossed 100 deaths per day about 18-19 days ago. their daily count varies, but they have about averaged that ever since. haven't spiked any further... yet.
is there a case to be made we are further along than them in that time frame?

here are some of their in-depth numbers:
https://experience.arcgis.com/experienc ... 87457ed9aa
about 250-300 deaths under age 60.
well over half deaths over 80 years old.
if they can do a better job protecting seniors... and immunity is in fact happening and effective (who knows???? not the WHO)....
they may come nowhere near the disastrous predictions made for their model.

not a scientist, but for about a month now this is indicative of a thought process i've been advocating we should be investigating to inform our decisions.
and why i've alluded that we were wholly unprepared and that changing these initial results wouldve been nearly impossible no matter who was in charge.
i'm actually kinda shocked scientists didn't really see a lot of this coming (much, much deeper infection, much higher r0 has to be a part of that).

With a novel virus you can’t always model it beyond reasonable assumptions. Our lack of testing capabilities was a key contributing factor. Given what scientists had been discussing about the potential emergence of a SARS type virus, we should have put all hands on deck to ramp up our testing capabilities. Instead we wasted 2 months and have been playing catch-up. We know more now because we have more data. A “robust” testing regiment would have provided us with more data much sooner. We are already past the average seasonal flu deaths 2 months in with social distancing. A lot of them are old people but I don’t have the demographics on who the flu kills. I expect some sort of moderation as we learn more and are better prepared...but who knows. This administration’s ability to execute is awful.

[wgdsr]

i agree our lack of testing hasn't informed us better.
i don't agree it would have changed our fortunes to date.
in no way prepared pregame. to me, THAT was the issue. not specific to our country, but others were ready (south korea as an example that everyone uses... that was not us. it's comical).
no one is asking me, but we need 10, 20, 30 communities tested en masse to see what we have. rural, urban,, etc.
by now, we should be protecting the elderly. last night a report 90 % of employees and 80?% of residents at a nursing home.
900?+ at a food processing plant.
viral reports out of china early it was 20x the spread and deaths in wuhan as cremation plants were working 24/7.
washington state nursing homes wiped out early.
vo, italy lovking down their community with country's 1st positive case finds 3% of 3000 residents already had it.
california taking in 8000-10000 people a day for months.

i could go on and on. this thing is faster and more slippery than ANYONE is giving it credit for.

in whataboutism.... for a bit we tracked h1n1 and figured no human to human transmission. then when we got "too many" cases to track... we stopped.
just watched delta on hospital admissions and extrapolated infection and deaths. were willing to take the death count, and it certainly skewed younger than this one. made a call and willing to live with numbers.
forget about shutting down the economy, what was the investment in those 12-18000 deaths?
i am NOT saying they did the wrong thing, merely saying they made a choice and hard decisions.
was there a reupping of national preparedness, the national stockpile for something worse?
no.
the dug in and back and forth and who is to blame is useless and will lead to more wrong decisions.
we are chasing public sentiment still. both sides.
what next?

[Typical Lax Dad]

i agree our lack of testing hasn't informed us better.
i don't agree it would have changed our fortunes to date.
in no way prepared pregame. to me, THAT was the issue. not specific to our country, but others were ready (south korea as an example that everyone uses... that was not us. it's comical).
no one is asking me, but we need 10, 20, 30 communities tested en masse to see what we have. rural, urban,, etc.
by now, we should be protecting the elderly. last night a report 90 % of employees and 80?% of residents at a nursing home.
900?+ at a food processing plant.
viral reports out of china early it was 20x the spread and deaths in wuhan as cremation plants were working 24/7.
washington state nursing homes wiped out early.
vo, italy lovking down their community with country's 1st positive case finds 3% of 3000 residents already had it.
california taking in 8000-10000 people a day for months.

i could go on and on. this thing is faster and more slippery than ANYONE is giving it credit for.

in whataboutism.... for a bit we tracked h1n1 and figured no human to human transmission. then when we got "too many" cases to track... we stopped.
just watched delta on hospital admissions and extrapolated infection and deaths. were willing to take the death count, and it certainly skewed younger than this one. made a call and willing to live with numbers.
forget about shutting down the economy, what was the investment in those 12-18000 deaths?
i am NOT saying they did the wrong thing, merely saying they made a choice and hard decisions.
was there a reupping of national preparedness, the national stockpile for something worse?
no.
the dug in and back and forth and who is to blame is useless and will lead to more wrong decisions.
we are chasing public sentiment still. both sides.
what next?

COVID19 was unavoidable. The duration and severity may not have been as deep or as long. It’s speculation. I “believe” more testing would be better than less testing. (There are no contravening facts at this point so it’s belief) Otherwise, testing is indifferent. I prefer facts when available. One of my favorite sayings is that (with some people) you will never overcome beliefs with facts. With H1N1, I am certain we were not facing mass casualty situations. That has seemed to be a big driver of our actions here. Not just the death count in a vacuum.

[RedFromMI]

i agree our lack of testing hasn't informed us better.
i don't agree it would have changed our fortunes to date.
in no way prepared pregame. to me, THAT was the issue. not specific to our country, but others were ready (south korea as an example that everyone uses... that was not us. it's comical).
no one is asking me, but we need 10, 20, 30 communities tested en masse to see what we have. rural, urban,, etc.
by now, we should be protecting the elderly. last night a report 90 % of employees and 80?% of residents at a nursing home.
900?+ at a food processing plant.
viral reports out of china early it was 20x the spread and deaths in wuhan as cremation plants were working 24/7.
washington state nursing homes wiped out early.
vo, italy lovking down their community with country's 1st positive case finds 3% of 3000 residents already had it.
california taking in 8000-10000 people a day for months.

i could go on and on. this thing is faster and more slippery than ANYONE is giving it credit for.

in whataboutism.... for a bit we tracked h1n1 and figured no human to human transmission. then when we got "too many" cases to track... we stopped.
just watched delta on hospital admissions and extrapolated infection and deaths. were willing to take the death count, and it certainly skewed younger than this one. made a call and willing to live with numbers.
forget about shutting down the economy, what was the investment in those 12-18000 deaths?
i am NOT saying they did the wrong thing, merely saying they made a choice and hard decisions.
was there a reupping of national preparedness, the national stockpile for something worse?
no.
the dug in and back and forth and who is to blame is useless and will lead to more wrong decisions.
we are chasing public sentiment still. both sides.
what next?

H1N1 was ~12-13K deaths over more than a years time. We are sitting at a likely total (given that we cannot test enough) of ballpark 80-100K in less than two months time. No more than a few percent of the US citizenry are exposed nationwide, and we still don't even know for sure that people that have been exposed are immune (although that is certainly possible, maybe even likely - immunity if present may not last long).

No significant population if ANY seems to be immune beforehand.

We still don't know how to treat the disease well for those who get really sick with it. There is no miracle cure yet (much of the hyped and little tested drugs don't seem to have giant upsides). And a vaccine is probably more than a year away. (Although there are those who suggest running through a "challenge protocol" where you get healthy and young volunteers who would risk getting the vaccine up for trial and then are intentionally exposed. Risky as we do have some apparent long term effects of the disease we do not yet understand - like young people getting strokes.)

We are still not prepared the way we should be.

[youthathletics]

Yale preventive medicine and public health specialist Dr. David Katz on Maher's show last night advocating the "middle ground" between total shutdown and say, the Sweden model with perhaps a bit more in terms or protecting vulnerable populations while allowing herd immunity to take control.

He makes a lot of sense. I'd surely be interested in what some of the science-based folks here think of his suggestions.

Great interview, thanks for posting. I'll say again, Maher is the best...

Wonderfully thorough interview. Covered what I consider all the bases. Not a science guy, but a numbers guy who keeps a fixed eye on the disease reports both here in the US state by state and globally. Too bad our testing regime is so inadequate as it seems to put the gold standard South Korean model of dealing with this disease out of reach, and leaves us wondering if incorporating aspects of the laissez faire Swedish model should be our next step, a model which we won't know conclusively about for another month or so. In the meantime various states look like they are just now trying out the Swedish thing which again should yield some interesting data, but again not for another six weeks or more. The salient point is whatever we do, the minimum objective is to assure that none of our hospitals get overwhelmed. Meanwhile we need to continue looking into less intrusive ways than a total shut down of social and economic activity to reduce the occurrence of unnecessary deaths from this disease.

The two points in red lead me to ask you a couple things, b/c there is vacuum in between there.

(1) Why did the CDC, very early on and still to this day, encourage everyone to stay home if they have symptoms..to call your physician, and not run to the Hospital?
----(a) was that to avoid overwhelming hospitals?
----(b) was that in part to preserve PPE for first responders?

(2) Let's assume we had enough testing on February 1st, and everyone that wanted a test, drove around and received one, either in a parking lot or Dr's office, what value would that have provided?
----(a) If you tested positive, you then went home just like the CDC already told you to do. And waited and prayed it did not get worse.
----(b) If negative, you still went home just like the CDC already told you to do.
----(c) If positive, but no symptoms...then maybe there is some data driven value?

The questions above come from my belief that there was a propensity to protect those in the health care facility, first and foremost, make certain that there was time to stock up on PPE b/c they believed the $h1t was about to hit the fan and needed to buy themselves time. I still struggle to understand what value the test provides other than a way to measure a data point, that in the end, provides little real value, or at the least....provides a false sense of security to get back to normal.

[wgdsr]

i agree our lack of testing hasn't informed us better.
i don't agree it would have changed our fortunes to date.
in no way prepared pregame. to me, THAT was the issue. not specific to our country, but others were ready (south korea as an example that everyone uses... that was not us. it's comical).
no one is asking me, but we need 10, 20, 30 communities tested en masse to see what we have. rural, urban,, etc.
by now, we should be protecting the elderly. last night a report 90 % of employees and 80?% of residents at a nursing home.
900?+ at a food processing plant.
viral reports out of china early it was 20x the spread and deaths in wuhan as cremation plants were working 24/7.
washington state nursing homes wiped out early.
vo, italy lovking down their community with country's 1st positive case finds 3% of 3000 residents already had it.
california taking in 8000-10000 people a day for months.

i could go on and on. this thing is faster and more slippery than ANYONE is giving it credit for.

in whataboutism.... for a bit we tracked h1n1 and figured no human to human transmission. then when we got "too many" cases to track... we stopped.
just watched delta on hospital admissions and extrapolated infection and deaths. were willing to take the death count, and it certainly skewed younger than this one. made a call and willing to live with numbers.
forget about shutting down the economy, what was the investment in those 12-18000 deaths?
i am NOT saying they did the wrong thing, merely saying they made a choice and hard decisions.
was there a reupping of national preparedness, the national stockpile for something worse?
no.
the dug in and back and forth and who is to blame is useless and will lead to more wrong decisions.
we are chasing public sentiment still. both sides.
what next?

H1N1 was ~12-13K deaths over more than a years time. We are sitting at a likely total (given that we cannot test enough) of ballpark 80-100K in less than two months time. No more than a few percent of the US citizenry are exposed nationwide, and we still don't even know for sure that people that have been exposed are immune (although that is certainly possible, maybe even likely - immunity if present may not last long).

No significant population if ANY seems to be immune beforehand.

We still don't know how to treat the disease well for those who get really sick with it. There is no miracle cure yet (much of the hyped and little tested drugs don't seem to have giant upsides). And a vaccine is probably more than a year away. (Although there are those who suggest running through a "challenge protocol" where you get healthy and young volunteers who would risk getting the vaccine up for trial and then are intentionally exposed. Risky as we do have some apparent long term effects of the disease we do not yet understand - like young people getting strokes.)

We are still not prepared the way we should be.

yup. still not prepared.
many tests, how soon, and when available do you expect would've stopped this?
did you see cuomo's talk about the estimates and when? most of these folks were asymptomatic or mildly. flu symptoms. would you have 8 million tests ready for all of those in early march in ny? bc who would you test otherwise?
would you have cut the schedule on mass transit there, as that was maybe one of, if not THE largest carrier to ny, LI, NJ, and CT? so fewer lines going for 1st responders and essential workers resulted in packed trains? that was going on until at least the end of march until viral twitter posts.
would you have told nyc mayor to not wait until everyone and their sister clamored to shut down the schools, schools left open so they could provide meals?

we had 100 documented cases in 1st week of march. what breeds a diff outcome? we cant get the tests out now en masse. still. problems, restarts everywhere. antibody tests they've been talking about for quite a while many look unreliable.
the 500k tests per day to weed out infected sounds ridiculous. 50-80% are asymptomatic we have 330 million in this country and half+ of them work.

i think it is pretty obvious the numbers aren't the same with h1n1. was referencing response and choice made. what is your number? what's the number scale and response?

2-3% won't be borne out over time. imo.

[RedFromMI]

Subways need to run more frequently so you can have spacing in the cars - and get people to wear masks...

If the 2-3% you are referencing is what I said - that is my best guesstimate given how little of the country has actually had a big case load. I live in a place with very few cases (like 4 in my zip code tested and an estimate of around 30 or so cases undetected). That is about half of a county with over 50K residents in said county. So actual infection levels where I sit is _tiny_.

I just worry that given how this virus attacks not just lungs but heart, liver, clotting mechanisms, etc. there will be some long term effects we are not close to understanding.

One of my daughter's med school classmates is a resident pediatrician in MI who has had COVID (presumably from treating patients) but even though it is two plus weeks of isolation past last symptoms she cannot do the rotation she is supposed to be doing (pediatric cancer patients) because those patients have compromised immune systems from their treatments and they really do not know if she is a danger to those children - and don't want to be the test site. It will be interesting to see how long before she can do that rotation...

[RedFromMI]

World Health Org Warns Against ‘Immunity Passports’: ‘No Evidence’ People Can’t Be Reinfected

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/worl ... reinfected

The World Health Organization on Friday warned against assumptions that people who’ve recovered from COVID-19 will necessarily avoid being infected again.

In a scientific brief, the health organization acknowledged that some governments have suggested conferring “immunity passports” or “risk-free certificates” to former COVID-19 patients who are proven to have antibodies for the novel coronavirus in their blood.

However, WHO noted, “There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection.”

“As of 24 April 2020, no study has evaluated whether the presence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 confers immunity to subsequent infection by this virus in humans,” the brief added.

In addition, per WHO, laboratory tests to detect COVID-19 antibodies “need further validation to determine their accuracy and reliability.”

Antibody tests to determine the presence of past coronavirus infections have become more widespread in recent weeks.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) on Thursday the preliminary results of an antibody survey that found that 21.2% of New York City residents, and 13.9% of New Yorkers statewide, had tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies. The survey counted 3,000 people tested outside grocery stores and other big box stores around the state.

“At this point in the pandemic, there is not enough evidence about the effectiveness of antibody-mediated immunity to guarantee the accuracy of an ‘immunity passport’ or ‘risk-free certificate,'” WHO’s brief concluded.

“People who assume that they are immune to a second infection because they have received a positive test result may ignore public health advice. The use of such certificates may therefore increase the risks of continued transmission. As new evidence becomes available, WHO will update this scientific brief.”

[Typical Lax Dad]

i agree our lack of testing hasn't informed us better.
i don't agree it would have changed our fortunes to date.
in no way prepared pregame. to me, THAT was the issue. not specific to our country, but others were ready (south korea as an example that everyone uses... that was not us. it's comical).
no one is asking me, but we need 10, 20, 30 communities tested en masse to see what we have. rural, urban,, etc.
by now, we should be protecting the elderly. last night a report 90 % of employees and 80?% of residents at a nursing home.
900?+ at a food processing plant.
viral reports out of china early it was 20x the spread and deaths in wuhan as cremation plants were working 24/7.
washington state nursing homes wiped out early.
vo, italy lovking down their community with country's 1st positive case finds 3% of 3000 residents already had it.
california taking in 8000-10000 people a day for months.

i could go on and on. this thing is faster and more slippery than ANYONE is giving it credit for.

in whataboutism.... for a bit we tracked h1n1 and figured no human to human transmission. then when we got "too many" cases to track... we stopped.
just watched delta on hospital admissions and extrapolated infection and deaths. were willing to take the death count, and it certainly skewed younger than this one. made a call and willing to live with numbers.
forget about shutting down the economy, what was the investment in those 12-18000 deaths?
i am NOT saying they did the wrong thing, merely saying they made a choice and hard decisions.
was there a reupping of national preparedness, the national stockpile for something worse?
no.
the dug in and back and forth and who is to blame is useless and will lead to more wrong decisions.
we are chasing public sentiment still. both sides.
what next?

H1N1 was ~12-13K deaths over more than a years time. We are sitting at a likely total (given that we cannot test enough) of ballpark 80-100K in less than two months time. No more than a few percent of the US citizenry are exposed nationwide, and we still don't even know for sure that people that have been exposed are immune (although that is certainly possible, maybe even likely - immunity if present may not last long).

No significant population if ANY seems to be immune beforehand.

We still don't know how to treat the disease well for those who get really sick with it. There is no miracle cure yet (much of the hyped and little tested drugs don't seem to have giant upsides). And a vaccine is probably more than a year away. (Although there are those who suggest running through a "challenge protocol" where you get healthy and young volunteers who would risk getting the vaccine up for trial and then are intentionally exposed. Risky as we do have some apparent long term effects of the disease we do not yet understand - like young people getting strokes.)

We are still not prepared the way we should be.

yup. still not prepared.
many tests, how soon, and when available do you expect would've stopped this?
did you see cuomo's talk about the estimates and when? most of these folks were asymptomatic or mildly. flu symptoms. would you have 8 million tests ready for all of those in early march in ny? bc who would you test otherwise?
would you have cut the schedule on mass transit there, as that was maybe one of, if not THE largest carrier to ny, LI, NJ, and CT? so fewer lines going for 1st responders and essential workers resulted in packed trains? that was going on until at least the end of march until viral twitter posts.
would you have told nyc mayor to not wait until everyone and their sister clamored to shut down the schools, schools left open so they could provide meals?

we had 100 documented cases in 1st week of march. what breeds a diff outcome? we cant get the tests out now en masse. still. problems, restarts everywhere. antibody tests they've been talking about for quite a while many look unreliable.
the 500k tests per day to weed out infected sounds ridiculous. 50-80% are asymptomatic we have 330 million in this country and half+ of them work.

i think it is pretty obvious the numbers aren't the same with h1n1. was referencing response and choice made. what is your number? what's the number scale and response?

2-3% won't be borne out over time. imo.

You wouldn’t have to test “everyone”. Just the
People in the vicinity to try to ring isolate. We were unprepared and it got too far away and because we had no idea how widespread it might be, we shut everything down to be conservative. Our testing is still inadequate but that horse left the barn a long time ago.

[ggait]

Without diving too much into this issue, what you should be aware of is every blue-check Twitter media guy is hyperventilating about this topic today. Hmmmm.

Petey -- SMH!!

Pence was out here a couple of weeks ago to do the USAFA graduation. No problem at all.

Because the USAFA had already sent all lower classmen home, but had already decided to keep all the seniors on campus. They did the graduation with no guests allowed -- families watched on livestream; and all attendees were kept SD-ed the whole time.

Has the USMA already sent all their seniors home? Were they planning an in person graduation absent Trump? Are they going to ship the senior cadets back to campus just for Trump's speech?

If USMA is having to muster an in-person graduation just to be window dressing for Trump, then it is just another lousy narcissistic outrage to add to a very big and growing pile.

By the way, you really believe that Trump was punking the press about UV light an injections?

And if that was true (implausible) you think such behavior is in any way appropriate?

The sooner we get to send Trump packing the better. He's stupid, a liar and horrible at his job. Given how bad he is, thank god he's lazy and incompetent. Silver lining I guess.

Hopefully, he will wind up as the only person in history to lose the popular vote twice and be impeached. WOAT.

[wgdsr]

World Health Org Warns Against ‘Immunity Passports’: ‘No Evidence’ People Can’t Be Reinfected

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/worl ... reinfected

The World Health Organization on Friday warned against assumptions that people who’ve recovered from COVID-19 will necessarily avoid being infected again.

In a scientific brief, the health organization acknowledged that some governments have suggested conferring “immunity passports” or “risk-free certificates” to former COVID-19 patients who are proven to have antibodies for the novel coronavirus in their blood.

However, WHO noted, “There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection.”

“As of 24 April 2020, no study has evaluated whether the presence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 confers immunity to subsequent infection by this virus in humans,” the brief added.

In addition, per WHO, laboratory tests to detect COVID-19 antibodies “need further validation to determine their accuracy and reliability.”

Antibody tests to determine the presence of past coronavirus infections have become more widespread in recent weeks.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) on Thursday the preliminary results of an antibody survey that found that 21.2% of New York City residents, and 13.9% of New Yorkers statewide, had tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies. The survey counted 3,000 people tested outside grocery stores and other big box stores around the state.

“At this point in the pandemic, there is not enough evidence about the effectiveness of antibody-mediated immunity to guarantee the accuracy of an ‘immunity passport’ or ‘risk-free certificate,'” WHO’s brief concluded.

“People who assume that they are immune to a second infection because they have received a positive test result may ignore public health advice. The use of such certificates may therefore increase the risks of continued transmission. As new evidence becomes available, WHO will update this scientific brief.”

how is it possible there is no information on this to disseminate? at all?
when is it coming?
i don't know if the WHO is good at their job or not, but outside looking in, i am flabbergasted at this. they literally have millions of people to study, or direct others to study.

[a fan]

World Health Org Warns Against ‘Immunity Passports’: ‘No Evidence’ People Can’t Be Reinfected

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/worl ... reinfected

The World Health Organization on Friday warned against assumptions that people who’ve recovered from COVID-19 will necessarily avoid being infected again.

In a scientific brief, the health organization acknowledged that some governments have suggested conferring “immunity passports” or “risk-free certificates” to former COVID-19 patients who are proven to have antibodies for the novel coronavirus in their blood.

However, WHO noted, “There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection.”

“As of 24 April 2020, no study has evaluated whether the presence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 confers immunity to subsequent infection by this virus in humans,” the brief added.

In addition, per WHO, laboratory tests to detect COVID-19 antibodies “need further validation to determine their accuracy and reliability.”

Antibody tests to determine the presence of past coronavirus infections have become more widespread in recent weeks.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) on Thursday the preliminary results of an antibody survey that found that 21.2% of New York City residents, and 13.9% of New Yorkers statewide, had tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies. The survey counted 3,000 people tested outside grocery stores and other big box stores around the state.

“At this point in the pandemic, there is not enough evidence about the effectiveness of antibody-mediated immunity to guarantee the accuracy of an ‘immunity passport’ or ‘risk-free certificate,'” WHO’s brief concluded.

“People who assume that they are immune to a second infection because they have received a positive test result may ignore public health advice. The use of such certificates may therefore increase the risks of continued transmission. As new evidence becomes available, WHO will update this scientific brief.”

how is it possible there is no information on this to disseminate? at all?
when is it coming?

This whole thing started 4 or 5 months ago. How fast do you think they should have these claims scientifically studied and peer reviewed?

[old salt]

The maker of Lysol has issued a statement advising Trumpists not drink their product.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t=business

I hope ABC's Jonathan Karl saw it, in answer to his stupid presser question.

did you bother to watch the whole thing?
Or are you buying into the total lie that Trump was just responding to a question or talking to a reporter when he initially went into his long, winding set of questions to Bryan and Birx?

The question came later.

Did you not want to ask the question too?
I was yelling at the TV for someone to ask it.
My god, they weren't really recommending that people inject disinfectants, right?

and Trump doubled down. And went back to Bryan and Birx.

How can you troll on here at this point with "stupid presser question"??

Calm down. Here's the question from ABC's Jonathan Karl, followed by Trump's immediate answer :

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... iefing-31/

Q But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

[Typical Lax Dad]

World Health Org Warns Against ‘Immunity Passports’: ‘No Evidence’ People Can’t Be Reinfected

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/worl ... reinfected

The World Health Organization on Friday warned against assumptions that people who’ve recovered from COVID-19 will necessarily avoid being infected again.

In a scientific brief, the health organization acknowledged that some governments have suggested conferring “immunity passports” or “risk-free certificates” to former COVID-19 patients who are proven to have antibodies for the novel coronavirus in their blood.

However, WHO noted, “There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection.”

“As of 24 April 2020, no study has evaluated whether the presence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 confers immunity to subsequent infection by this virus in humans,” the brief added.

In addition, per WHO, laboratory tests to detect COVID-19 antibodies “need further validation to determine their accuracy and reliability.”

Antibody tests to determine the presence of past coronavirus infections have become more widespread in recent weeks.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) on Thursday the preliminary results of an antibody survey that found that 21.2% of New York City residents, and 13.9% of New Yorkers statewide, had tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies. The survey counted 3,000 people tested outside grocery stores and other big box stores around the state.

“At this point in the pandemic, there is not enough evidence about the effectiveness of antibody-mediated immunity to guarantee the accuracy of an ‘immunity passport’ or ‘risk-free certificate,'” WHO’s brief concluded.

“People who assume that they are immune to a second infection because they have received a positive test result may ignore public health advice. The use of such certificates may therefore increase the risks of continued transmission. As new evidence becomes available, WHO will update this scientific brief.”

how is it possible there is no information on this to disseminate? at all?
when is it coming?

This whole thing started 4 or 5 months ago. How fast do you think they should have these claims scientifically studied and peer reviewed?

You can’t rush science and with a new virus we are learning everyday. This virus was unavoidable but we could have been better prepared on many levels. We will be better prepared on many levels next time. Even at my company will would handle how we are getting money out the door differently. We did it on the fly and went from 6 people working on it to 70. We will have a better delivery mechanism next time. We have gone through “lessons learned”.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The maker of Lysol has issued a statement advising Trumpists not drink their product.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t=business

I hope ABC's Jonathan Karl saw it, in answer to his stupid presser question.

did you bother to watch the whole thing?
Or are you buying into the total lie that Trump was just responding to a question or talking to a reporter when he initially went into his long, winding set of questions to Bryan and Birx?

The question came later.

Did you not want to ask the question too?
I was yelling at the TV for someone to ask it.
My god, they weren't really recommending that people inject disinfectants, right?

and Trump doubled down. And went back to Bryan and Birx.

How can you troll on here at this point with "stupid presser question"??

Calm down. Here's the question from ABC's Jonathan Karl, followed by Trump's immediate answer :

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... iefing-31/

Q But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

Everyone saw the guy. Not even Sarah Huckabee Sanders could defend it with a straight face.

# Defending Trump Is A Choice

[old salt]

The maker of Lysol has issued a statement advising Trumpists not drink their product.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t=business

I hope ABC's Jonathan Karl saw it, in answer to his stupid presser question.

did you bother to watch the whole thing?
Or are you buying into the total lie that Trump was just responding to a question or talking to a reporter when he initially went into his long, winding set of questions to Bryan and Birx?

The question came later.

Did you not want to ask the question too?
I was yelling at the TV for someone to ask it.
My god, they weren't really recommending that people inject disinfectants, right?

and Trump doubled down. And went back to Bryan and Birx.

How can you troll on here at this point with "stupid presser question"??

Calm down. Here's the question from ABC's Jonathan Karl, followed by Trump's immediate answer :

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... iefing-31/

Q But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

Everyone saw the guy. Not even Sarah Huckabee Sanders could defend it with a straight face.

# Defending Trump Is A Choice

I'm not defending him. I'm acting rationally, not hysterically.
I did not take his babble seriously, I heard his declarative answer to the question.

[old salt]

Typical Lax Dad wrote:
Yes. It remains to be seen. The philosophy seems to be, "we will let some of these old people die off and hopefully the younger people will develop some immunity". The question seems to be what is an acceptable number of deaths?... for the greater good.

They may be what it seems to you. To me, it seems to be -- do whatever it takes to alert, isolate, support & protect the vulnerable, while letting the healthy herd roam free, to save the economy, & to help those at risk . Every day we're learning of more unknowing positive carriers who were asymptomatic.

[MDlaxfan76]

The maker of Lysol has issued a statement advising Trumpists not drink their product.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... t=business

I hope ABC's Jonathan Karl saw it, in answer to his stupid presser question.

did you bother to watch the whole thing?
Or are you buying into the total lie that Trump was just responding to a question or talking to a reporter when he initially went into his long, winding set of questions to Bryan and Birx?

The question came later.

Did you not want to ask the question too?
I was yelling at the TV for someone to ask it.
My god, they weren't really recommending that people inject disinfectants, right?

and Trump doubled down. And went back to Bryan and Birx.

How can you troll on here at this point with "stupid presser question"??

Calm down. Here's the question from ABC's Jonathan Karl, followed by Trump's immediate answer :

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... iefing-31/

Q But I — just, can I ask about — the President mentioned the idea of cleaners, like bleach and isopropyl alcohol you mentioned. There’s no scenario that that could be injected into a person, is there? I mean —

ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: No, I’m here to talk about the findings that we had in the study. We won’t do that within that lab and our lab. So —

THE PRESIDENT: It wouldn’t be through injection. We’re talking about through almost a cleaning, sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work. But it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.

ALL, after the original ideas were floated earlier and he went on and on and on.

Watch the whole thing...Trump initiated this out of whole cloth, sunlight, UV light...inside the body...disinfectant...inside the body...

Karl's question came later.

Well before Karl:

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Bill.

Q Mr. Bryan —

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. So I asked Bill a question that probably some of you are thinking of, if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous — whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light — and I think you said that that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way, and I think you said you’re going to test that too. It sounds interesting.

ACTING UNDER SECRETARY BRYAN: We’ll get to the right folks who could.

THE PRESIDENT: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. So, that, you’re going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds — it sounds interesting to me.

So we’ll see. But the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute, that’s — that’s pretty powerful.

so, not's such a stupid question by Karl, right?

Frankly, I was focused on the UV rays thru the skin or in some other way, not disinfectants like bleach...I was saying they should stick it up his -ss. That was the craziest thing I'd ever heard...but then he starts talking about the disinfectants.

so, ok not "injection"...how the heck else are you going to get them INSIDE the body?... well, ingest them? breathe them? Stick a hose into your chest to clean out your lungs?!!

[MDlaxfan76]

Typical Lax Dad wrote:
Yes. It remains to be seen. The philosophy seems to be, "we will let some of these old people die off and hopefully the younger people will develop some immunity". The question seems to be what is an acceptable number of deaths?... for the greater good.

They may be what it seems to you. To me, it seems to be -- do whatever it takes to alert, isolate, support & protect the vulnerable, while letting the healthy herd roam free, to save the economy, & to help those at risk . Every day we're learning of more unknowing positive carriers who were asymptomatic.

Let's hope we can evolve to something close to that.
But what's the 'healthy herd" Under 25?
Under 30, under 40?...we know that under 30 do die...

The scientists are reporting that there's a surge of stroke deaths among middle aged people asymptomatic to CV-19.

[wgdsr]

World Health Org Warns Against ‘Immunity Passports’: ‘No Evidence’ People Can’t Be Reinfected

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/worl ... reinfected

The World Health Organization on Friday warned against assumptions that people who’ve recovered from COVID-19 will necessarily avoid being infected again.

In a scientific brief, the health organization acknowledged that some governments have suggested conferring “immunity passports” or “risk-free certificates” to former COVID-19 patients who are proven to have antibodies for the novel coronavirus in their blood.

However, WHO noted, “There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection.”

“As of 24 April 2020, no study has evaluated whether the presence of antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 confers immunity to subsequent infection by this virus in humans,” the brief added.

In addition, per WHO, laboratory tests to detect COVID-19 antibodies “need further validation to determine their accuracy and reliability.”

Antibody tests to determine the presence of past coronavirus infections have become more widespread in recent weeks.

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) on Thursday the preliminary results of an antibody survey that found that 21.2% of New York City residents, and 13.9% of New Yorkers statewide, had tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies. The survey counted 3,000 people tested outside grocery stores and other big box stores around the state.

“At this point in the pandemic, there is not enough evidence about the effectiveness of antibody-mediated immunity to guarantee the accuracy of an ‘immunity passport’ or ‘risk-free certificate,'” WHO’s brief concluded.

“People who assume that they are immune to a second infection because they have received a positive test result may ignore public health advice. The use of such certificates may therefore increase the risks of continued transmission. As new evidence becomes available, WHO will update this scientific brief.”

how is it possible there is no information on this to disseminate? at all?
when is it coming?

This whole thing started 4 or 5 months ago. How fast do you think they should have these claims scientifically studied and peer reviewed?

not sure. what is the proper timeline ?
link?