All Things Russia & Ukraine

[a fan]

Actually Stalin originally signed a non--aggression pact with Hitler in the 1939 (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Then Hitler reneged and invaded Russia in 1941(Operation Barbarossa).

Oh, I know....my point is, he could have joined Hitler...nothing was stopping him from doing that.

Instead, they were instrumental in the win.

[cradleandshoot]

Actually Stalin originally signed a non--aggression pact with Hitler in the 1939 (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Then Hitler reneged and invaded Russia in 1941(Operation Barbarossa).

Oh, I know....my point is, he could have joined Hitler...nothing was stopping him from doing that.

Instead, they were instrumental in the win.

Stalin didn't even trust his own generals much less Hitler. To paraphrase Don Corleone.. keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

[MDlaxfan76]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Uncle Joe was our ally. We could not have won WW II without him & the millions of Russians who died.

Go flame on Germany. They won't allow the rest of NATO to give Ukraine the tanks they want to give, which are exactly what the Ukrainians need to break the stalemate.

Defending Joseph Stalin is a new low for you.

What are you talking about? Russia could have joined Germany.....they didn't. They exposed Hitler to a two front war, which sealed his fate.

I'm grateful to those Russians for helping us win. It's not at all likely that we would have won without their help, Doc. Do you not know how many Russians died for the Allied cause?

I don't think you are correct about this having been a Russian (Soviet) decision, that they could have "joined Germany"...Hitler had already declared his intent to invade Russia, he had already breached their prior agreement (Molotov-Ribbentrop), and his overriding ambition had been the subjugation of Russia, Ukraine, the Baltics, Poland, etc. The prior agreement had only been a false play to deal with the West first, then turn to his primary goal, the east. Hitler had made promises he never intended to keep. Almost pulled it off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_F ... ld_War_II)

You are indeed correct about the horrendous cost in lives for the Russians. The price they paid indeed exhausted the German war machine, making possible for the Allies to achieve victory once the US was fully engaged.

Stalin with an 'ally' only in the defeat of Germany (hugely important), but not ever in any other way...and was arguably as grotesque a dictator and mass murderer as was Hitler.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Germans are proving that they are not a reliable ally. They are preventing other NATO allies from donating their German made Leopard tanks, which are the only practical option. The Brits can't give enough Challengers & US M1 Abrams are too heavy, complex & maint intensive. The Abrams are designed for massive US Army divisions, fighting in all terrain & theaters (including desert). Leopards are optimized for NATO armies operating in small units on European terrain. Some EU/NATO members other than Germany are willing to donate their Leopards to Ukraine. They're the only realistic option.

We're in an arms race to determine if we can arm & train Ukrainian forces faster than Russia can rearm & reinforce their forces in Ukraine.
This could be decisive.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/21/europe/u ... index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... -rcna66753

Watcha wanna bet that the Germans accede to these requests? And, second bet, send some Leopards of their own?

Those discussions are going on right now...stay tuned for progress these next weeks.

I agree, it's a race to provide all the weaponry and training necessary to decisively defeat the Russian war machine.

The US is going to need to be clear that we're handling other crucial elements, and that the Abrams are not as supportable as the Leopards, so Germany needs to step up with what they have that will help the most.

And the German population needs to keep putting pressure on...of course, there's a whole lot Russian financed opposition in Germany, so that needs to be addressed as well.

I'd bet that's what is happening in those discussions.

Sooner the better, of course.

We may send some Abrams as well, but I think the better use of our resources, incrementally to what others have to provide, would be longer range, precision weapons.

We will not send Abrams tanks to Ukraine period end of story. That is not because the M1 is not superior in combat capability to the German Leopard. You only have to look no further MD than the 1500 horse turbine engine that propels the M1 Abrams. It is a devastating weapons platform. The Ukrainians have no capability to support this weapon platform. The fuel used in the M1 is pretty much jet fuel . The Leopard is a much more practical tank for the Ukrainians. The short term answer is massive amounts of anti tank weapons. They may be old and outdated but our TOW missiles can be mounted on a variety of platforms and will destroy a main battle tank before the TC even sees it. Especially if the tank is buttoned up. I watched them launched when I was in the army on several occasions from tubes mounted on the old us army jeep. They are very fast and the launch platform only requires the gunner to keep the cross hairs on the target. The TOW gunners use to joke the only option the TC had if he saw a TOW missile heading towards their tank to bail the hell out of the vehicle ASAP. I don't know what the inventory of the TOW missiles systems are. They are old school technology but if memory serves me correct they can still destroy any tank still in existence. IMO they and similar anti tank weapons are still a lethal alternative.

I'm not arguing with that position, indeed that's clearly what our folks are saying on the topic. However, we may do a few simply to get the commitments from Germany that are needed ala the Leopards. I don't think that's the best answer, and hopefully we'll be able to convince the Germans that we're doing what we can contribute best (eg the long range precision weapons systems) and we need them to do what they can contribute best.

I think that's exactly what they're discussing right now and it will eventually happen.

The Germans have a quite different political situation than many of their neighbors, so it's proving to be hard to move them faster...but that's what a whole lot of the allied West is leaning hard on them to do.

[DocBarrister]

For Salty - not everyone agrees about your opinions whether Ukraine is separate from Russia - it is apparently not a new concept to Ukrainians either (and for quite some time)

"In the late 1960s during one of the U.S.-USSR Track Meets, sportscaster Jim McKay of ABC started to interview Valeriy Borzov saying "I am here with the great Russian sprinter Valeriy Borzov". Borzov interrupted by saying, "I am not Russian, I am Ukrainian" and walked away."

BFD. How many Divisions did Borzov command ?

https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/how-many- ... 20millions.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to facilitate the further dismemberment of the Russian nation.
With real threats to the US from China, Iran, N Korea, & drug cartels turning our hemisphere into a collection of corrupt narco states, we do not have the resources or duty to also reconcile the grievances among the citizens of the former Russian nation.

(1) Quoting the scumbag Stalin, one of the most monstrous genocidal/homicidal tyrants in human history is pretty repugnant.

(2) Russia is a greater threat than China, Iran, North Korea and the drug cartels because Russia actually started a war and has committed numerous atrocities and war crimes.

(3) Ukraine isn’t part of Russia and you need to understand and acknowledge that before saying anything else about this criminal war.

Your support of Russia is a true embarrassment to this forum.

DocBarrister

Uncle Joe was our ally. We could not have won WW II without him & the millions of Russians who died.

Go flame on Germany. They won't allow the rest of NATO to give Ukraine the tanks they want to give, which are exactly what the Ukrainians need to break the stalemate.

Defending Joseph Stalin is a new low for you.

What are you talking about? Russia could have joined Germany.....they didn't. They exposed Hitler to a two front war, which sealed his fate.

I'm grateful to those Russians for helping us win. It's not at all likely that we would have won without their help, Doc. Do you not know how many Russians died for the Allied cause?

Wow, your ignorance of history is astounding.

The German-Soviet Pact was signed in August 1939. It paved the way for the joint invasion and occupation of Poland by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that September. The pact was an agreement of convenience between the two bitter ideological enemies. It permitted Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union to carve up spheres of influence in eastern Europe, while pledging not to attack each other for 10 years. Less than two years later, however, Hitler launched an invasion of the Soviet Union.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... oviet-pact

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

Actually Stalin originally signed a non--aggression pact with Hitler in the 1939 (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Then Hitler reneged and invaded Russia in 1941(Operation Barbarossa).

Oh, I know....my point is, he could have joined Hitler...nothing was stopping him from doing that.

Instead, they were instrumental in the win.

No, it’s pretty obvious you didn’t know about that pact.

DocBarrister

[a fan]

Actually Stalin originally signed a non--aggression pact with Hitler in the 1939 (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Then Hitler reneged and invaded Russia in 1941(Operation Barbarossa).

Oh, I know....my point is, he could have joined Hitler...nothing was stopping him from doing that.

Instead, they were instrumental in the win.

No, it’s pretty obvious you didn’t know about that pact.

DocBarrister

There were a whole mess of pacts and deals during that time, my man. Turns out they were all irrelevant pieces of paper. Stalin was brutal, and could have done ANYTHING, despite pieces of paper.

But sure, let's go with your version of what really happened....Stalin and Russia no impact on the outcome of the war. Russia's involvement was a footnote.

[MDlaxfan76]

Actually Stalin originally signed a non--aggression pact with Hitler in the 1939 (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Then Hitler reneged and invaded Russia in 1941(Operation Barbarossa).

Oh, I know....my point is, he could have joined Hitler...nothing was stopping him from doing that.

Instead, they were instrumental in the win.

No, it’s pretty obvious you didn’t know about that pact.

DocBarrister

There were a whole mess of pacts and deals during that time, my man. Turns out they were all irrelevant pieces of paper. Stalin was brutal, and could have done ANYTHING, despite pieces of paper.

But sure, let's go with your version of what really happened....Stalin and Russia no impact on the outcome of the war. Russia's involvement was a footnote.

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal). It wasn't ever really a choice made by Stalin...and he was arguably every bit as brutal and gross a dictator, mass murderer as Hitler.

Thank the millions of Russians who died defending their country if you'd like (as I would), but not Stalin.

Doc, no need to rub anyone's nose in it...most people in America under recognize the criticality of the Eastern front in how the war eventually turned...I think a fan was just pushing back against that.

[a fan]

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal).

Uhhhhh......you realize your'e describing America, yeah? And a whole mess of other countries. We refused the pleas for help, remember? When did we join the allies? That's right------just like Russia, it was AFTER Germany declared war on us.

Russia and America are literally and precisely on the same moral footing when it comes to Germany and entering WWII.

Acting like America has the high moral ground when it comes to entering WWII when compared with Russia is clearly and obviously wrong.

Old Salt's point stands.

[Farfromgeneva]

Actually Stalin originally signed a non--aggression pact with Hitler in the 1939 (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact). Then Hitler reneged and invaded Russia in 1941(Operation Barbarossa).

Oh, I know....my point is, he could have joined Hitler...nothing was stopping him from doing that.

Instead, they were instrumental in the win.

No, it’s pretty obvious you didn’t know about that pact.

DocBarrister

There were a whole mess of pacts and deals during that time, my man. Turns out they were all irrelevant pieces of paper. Stalin was brutal, and could have done ANYTHING, despite pieces of paper.

But sure, let's go with your version of what really happened....Stalin and Russia no impact on the outcome of the war. Russia's involvement was a footnote.

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal). It wasn't ever really a choice made by Stalin...and he was arguably every bit as brutal and gross a dictator, mass murderer as Hitler.

Thank the millions of Russians who died defending their country if you'd like (as I would), but not Stalin.

Doc, no need to rub anyone's nose in it...most people in America under recognize the criticality of the Eastern front in how the war eventually turned...I think a fan was just pushing back against that.

That’s the prop trading mentality though they use baseball batting as analogy. Gotta forget the last swing and miss and back in the batters box and take the next pitch .

[old salt]

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/08/pol ... -contract/

Poland to receive 250 advanced Abrams tanks under $1 billion contract
The award caps off a year-long effort by Poland to sign a contract for the newest version of the Abrams tank, an effort that began as Russia amassed troops on Ukraine's border.

By ANDREW EVERSDEN, August 25, 2022.

WASHINGTON — The US Army has officially inked the long-awaited contract with General Dynamics Land Systems to send the most advanced version of its Abrams tank to Poland, the service announced today.

GDLS, the prime Abrams manufacturer, will deliver 250 M1A2 System Enhancement Program version 3 (SEPv3) Abrams tanks to the Polish army under a $1.15 billion contract, capping off a year-long push by the NATO ally to buy the tanks. The announcement comes as the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which borders Poland to the southeast, enters its sixth month.

“NATO’s strength lies in its unity, which has never been greater than it is today,” said Doug Bush, assistant secretary of the Army for acquisition, logistics and technology, in a statement. “This award is an example of the Army’s continuing work with our industry partners to increase production of critical military equipment capabilities to ensure we continue to meet the needs of our partners and allies.”

The contract was signed in late July, according to the Army announcement, after Poland formally requested the tanks in July 2021. Delivery of the SEPv3 Abrams tanks will begin in January 2025, the release states. The Polish army intends to integrate the Abrams into its 18th Mechanized Division, according to an Aug. 10 Army announcement.

“We are pleased to have been chosen to provide this critical armored capability to our allies in Poland,” Chris Brown, vice president of global strategy and international business development at General Dynamics Land Systems, said in a company statement. “The M1A2 SEPv3 Abrams is the most advanced main battle tank in the world, and we look forward to getting it into the hands of Polish Soldiers.”

“Delivery of the tanks will further improve the U.S. Army’s interoperability with the Polish armed forces and will significantly boost the nations’ combined military deterrence strength,” the Army press release said.

The State Department cleared the sale to Poland in February, just days ahead of Russia’s invasion of its neighbor, as part of a larger $6 billion package that included counter-IED systems, hundreds of machine guns, 26 M88 recovery vehicles, 17 Joint Assault Bridges and other military systems. State came under pressure from congressional Republicans to approve the deal in the midst of Russia’s military build-up on the Ukrainian border, arguing that strengthening the NATO ally with the US’s most advanced tank would send a message to Russia.

The US Army started an Abrams Tank Training Academy on Aug. 10 in Poznan, Poland, according to the Aug. 10 announcement, as part of a new US-Polish Abrams Partnership Program. The academy is led by Program Executive Office Ground Combat Systems and started training Polish soldiers in July.

The US-Polish Abrams Partnership Program will give Polish soldiers additional Abrams training, both on the platform itself and tactics. Today’s Army announcement stated that the service had delivered 28 Abrams tanks to Poland in July and had begun training the Poles.

The Brits have committed to donating 14 Challenger tanks. If it will break Germany's Leopard logjam, the US Army should earmark 14 of the easiest to operate M1's for transfer to Ukraine & get them moving to Poland, while the future Ukrainian M1 crews begin training at the Polish Abrams Academy. The Ukrainians should decide which crewmembers should be trained on either the Leopard, Challenger & Abrams, based on getting any many as possible of the new main battle tanks into combat service asap.

[cradleandshoot]

You folks are obsessed with MBTs . The MBT has gone the way of the T-Rex. The introduction of inexpensive and lethal next generation ATW is rapidly making the MBT concept obsolete. You folks act like your oblivious to this fact. The only thing modern day MBT provide is nothing less than a BFT. You wanna help Ukraine? Outfit a couple hundred mothballed M113 with state of the art multiple launch TOW missile systems. I'm astounded that some of you folks think a dozen M1 Abrams would make any difference. The M1 is a devastating weapons platform. It is the wrong weapon for Ukraine. They desperately need state of the art anti tank weapons. That is the right weapon for the mission.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal).

Uhhhhh......you realize your'e describing America, yeah? And a whole mess of other countries. We refused the pleas for help, remember? When did we join the allies? That's right------just like Russia, it was AFTER Germany declared war on us.

Russia and America are literally and precisely on the same moral footing when it comes to Germany and entering WWII.

Acting like America has the high moral ground when it comes to entering WWII when compared with Russia is clearly and obviously wrong.

Old Salt's point stands.

False equivalency.
We did NOT enter into a pact with Hitler to divide up any part of Europe or anywhere else, rather we sent massive amounts of supplies to the Brits, much akin to what we've been doing with Ukraine. It is correct that much of our population was opposed to entering the war, but we, with Roosevelt's leadership, put our $ and ships at risk, ultimately causing Hitler to declare against us.

Stalin, by contrast, did Not arm his neighbors, any of the allies, nor do any other hostile action against Germany.

There was no moral high ground required in this discussion, but if you wish to bring that element in, then yes, we had higher ground than did Stalin and the Soviet Union.

And the larger point is that Stalin was a monster of Hitlerian proportions, certainly no role model.

[PizzaSnake]

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal).

Uhhhhh......you realize your'e describing America, yeah? And a whole mess of other countries. We refused the pleas for help, remember? When did we join the allies? That's right------just like Russia, it was AFTER Germany declared war on us.

Russia and America are literally and precisely on the same moral footing when it comes to Germany and entering WWII.

Acting like America has the high moral ground when it comes to entering WWII when compared with Russia is clearly and obviously wrong.

Old Salt's point stands.

Indeed. Good times at the German-American Bund indoctrination camp (Camp Sigfried) on Long Island, 1930s.

"Summertime, and the livin's easy"...

[Farfromgeneva]

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal).

Uhhhhh......you realize your'e describing America, yeah? And a whole mess of other countries. We refused the pleas for help, remember? When did we join the allies? That's right------just like Russia, it was AFTER Germany declared war on us.

Russia and America are literally and precisely on the same moral footing when it comes to Germany and entering WWII.

Acting like America has the high moral ground when it comes to entering WWII when compared with Russia is clearly and obviously wrong.

Old Salt's point stands.

Indeed. Good times at the German-American Bund indoctrination camp (Camp Sigfried) on Long Island, 1930s.

"Summertime, and the livin's easy"...

Sublime and Pharcyde did a fun version years back on their (Sublimes) best album

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kxGh6VGxuw0

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal).

Uhhhhh......you realize your'e describing America, yeah? And a whole mess of other countries. We refused the pleas for help, remember? When did we join the allies? That's right------just like Russia, it was AFTER Germany declared war on us.

Russia and America are literally and precisely on the same moral footing when it comes to Germany and entering WWII.

Acting like America has the high moral ground when it comes to entering WWII when compared with Russia is clearly and obviously wrong.

Old Salt's point stands.

Indeed. Good times at the German-American Bund indoctrination camp (Camp Sigfried) on Long Island, 1930s.

"Summertime, and the livin's easy"...

Yes, our 'history' books typically 'whitewash' the reality that there was a lot of pro-fascist sentiment, including formally organized as such, in the 1930's USA...but it actually isn't really that surprising when one realizes how deep-rooted our own bigotries have been, racial, ethnic, religious. Fascism was hand in glove for many in the US, with the monetary temptations coupled with the cultural.

Re fascism, it's understandable that there was some embarrassment at the realities of that prior support, once we entered the war and the US propaganda machine began to crank up hard against the Nazis in specific...and even then, we really didn't want to know how grotesque the realities were of the Holocaust as it was unfolding. But as that was eventually revealed, the denial of prior sympathies became the norm....with a new 'enemy' being the communists...and yet, again, we were in deep denial (and many still are) about what authoritarian communism did to it's citizens who didn't have the 'right' ethnicity or religion...

That's the stuff these school boards and right-wing politicians don't want our current generation of children to understand. Our own bigotries.

And we're seeing that push back against a fulsome understanding of history become mainstreamed by one of our two major political parties.

But that doesn't mean that Stalin isn't one heck of a bad choice as any sort of positive historical character to emulate...quite the opposite.

[a fan]

Chessmaster Putin continues to dig holes for Russian citizens.....

Russia, Estonia expel ambassadors amid ‘destroyed’ relations

https://apnews.com/article/estonia-tall ... xsFE7zIv-w

[old salt]

The case for tanks in Ukraine.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/1 ... or-ukraine

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/11504169 ... nk-ukraine

https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... a-8398414/

https://warontherocks.com/2017/03/a-vet ... ly-advice/
I thought back to my days as a young lieutenant in 1991. I served as then-Capt. McMaster’s fire support officer in Eagle Troop, 2nd U.S. Cavalry, and I observed first-hand his outstanding leadership qualities at the Battle of 73 Easting, in which McMaster’s nine tanks and 12 Bradley Fighting Vehicles utterly destroyed an Iraqi Republican Guard armored brigade.

McMaster’s qualifications as an army leader are superb. His two major military operations were unqualified successes. When he took over Eagle Troop in 1990, the unit was dysfunctional, disheartened, and in poor shape. McMaster immediately infused it with focus, energy, and drive. After months of training, he led a confident Eagle Troop into the largest American tank battle since World War II, annihilating a brigade of the Iraqi Tawakalna Division
https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridg ... 73-easting
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboo ... ter-179139
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skept ... -won-28537

[DocBarrister]

I'm thinking you might just want to take the 'loss' on that one, say, 'my bad, you're right, Stalin was a monster too."

In golf, every so often we hit one into a bunker, into the water, into the sh-t...the key is to flush that, and hit the best shot you can to recover best you can, but take your 'penalty' for screwing up a shot...no big deal, there are 18 holes to play...In lax, very important as a goalie not to get upset over missing a shot, the other side is gonna score...typically 40+% of the time...make the next play...

On this, Doc was right, Stalin never made the choice that he preferred to align with the Allies. He made the choice first to align with Germany, then was forced into alliance with the West because Hitler forced that action by declaring his intent to invade Russia (always his primary goal).

Uhhhhh......you realize your'e describing America, yeah? And a whole mess of other countries. We refused the pleas for help, remember? When did we join the allies? That's right------just like Russia, it was AFTER Germany declared war on us.

Russia and America are literally and precisely on the same moral footing when it comes to Germany and entering WWII.

Acting like America has the high moral ground when it comes to entering WWII when compared with Russia is clearly and obviously wrong.

Old Salt's point stands.

Wow. Your ignorance of history is truly astounding.

Before Pearl Harbor, the United States provided allies with naval warships and massive amounts of other critical war supplies through various programs (destroyers-for-bases, cash-and-carry, lend-lease). FDR did not ignore the allies’ pleas for help and found ways to get them critical assistance despite the opposition from many Republicans in Congress.

https://www.history.com/.amp/news/unite ... lend-lease

Unlike the USSR and Stalin, the United States did not sign a secret agreement with Hitler to divide a militarily conquered Poland.

Indeed, the rearming of Germany would not have been possible without a covert alliance with the Soviet Union:

From 1933 to 1939, Adolf Hitler grew the German military from 100,000 soldiers to nearly 4 million and from a few dozen combat vehicles to a fleet of thousands of the most technologically advanced planes and tanks of the time.

Amassing that force in six brief years was only possible because of a secret German-Soviet partnership that began more than a decade before Hitler came to power.

In new research that is the first to elucidate exactly what occurred at secret facilities in the USSR, Ian Johnson, the P. J. Moran Family Assistant Professor of Military History at the University of Notre Dame, details the inner workings of the German-Soviet alliance that laid the foundation for Germany’s rise and ultimate downfall in World War II.

… For German military leaders, the alliance with the Soviets allowed them to get around the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, which dismantled the Imperial German Army after WWI and forbade Germany from developing or purchasing modern tools of war. A partnership with the Soviet Union meant rearmament and, someday, a war of revenge ….

https://news.nd.edu/news/historian-offe ... -for-wwii/

Your assertion that “Russia and America are literally and precisely on the same moral footing when it comes to Germany and entering WWII” is absolutely wrong.

Maybe you should take some time to learn the history of WWII before mouthing off your uninformed opinions.

DocBarrister

[DocBarrister]

The case for tanks in Ukraine.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/1 ... or-ukraine

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/11504169 ... nk-ukraine

https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... a-8398414/

https://warontherocks.com/2017/03/a-vet ... ly-advice/
I thought back to my days as a young lieutenant in 1991. I served as then-Capt. McMaster’s fire support officer in Eagle Troop, 2nd U.S. Cavalry, and I observed first-hand his outstanding leadership qualities at the Battle of 73 Easting, in which McMaster’s nine tanks and 12 Bradley Fighting Vehicles utterly destroyed an Iraqi Republican Guard armored brigade.

McMaster’s qualifications as an army leader are superb. His two major military operations were unqualified successes. When he took over Eagle Troop in 1990, the unit was dysfunctional, disheartened, and in poor shape. McMaster immediately infused it with focus, energy, and drive. After months of training, he led a confident Eagle Troop into the largest American tank battle since World War II, annihilating a brigade of the Iraqi Tawakalna Division
https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridg ... 73-easting
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboo ... ter-179139
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skept ... -won-28537

Based on today’s news, looks like around 100 Leopard tanks and 30 Abrams tanks are heading to Ukraine.

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2023/ ... e-00079218

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... 94762d668e

https://www.wsj.com/articles/poland-for ... 1674558492

Coupled with over 100 Bradley Fighting Vehicles, other armored personnel carriers, and UK Challenger tanks, I think this is a game changer. Tanks and armored personnel carriers are offensive weapons that will help Ukraine push Russians out of occupied territory.

Stalin … I mean, Putin … will not be happy about this.

DocBarrister