All Things Russia & Ukraine

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MDlaxfan76
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Brooklyn wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:19 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:09 pm

:roll:
Anyone who thinks I'm a right wing nut job' is out to lunch.'
But you do you.

LOL. Anyone who "thinks" I'm from the extreme left or whatever label you people put on me is utterly delusional. Best just to discuss facts and to dispense with the labeling.
"you people"

Just reading your posts, Brooklyn.
Way, way "left"...and some rather radical prescriptions.
We may agree on some stuff eg Trump/MAGA etc, but you are close to espousing anarchist views at times...other times pretty close to communist views; extreme isolationist as well...If you are saying there are people even further to the left than you, that's likely true. I'd certainly take your word for it.
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youthathletics
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by youthathletics »

[Tinfoil hat partially on]Maybe all this cash we are pumping into Ukraine, is really just a shell, in order to get it into the WEF coffers. Thinking big(er) picture.

https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1 ... rBTa_4bIQA
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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Brooklyn
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Brooklyn »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:36 am

"you people"

Just reading your posts, Brooklyn.
Way, way "left"...and some rather radical prescriptions.
We may agree on some stuff eg Trump/MAGA etc, but you are close to espousing anarchist views at times...other times pretty close to communist views; extreme isolationist as well...If you are saying there are people even further to the left than you, that's likely true. I'd certainly take your word for it.

:roll:
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Farfromgeneva
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:36 am
Brooklyn wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:19 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:09 pm

:roll:
Anyone who thinks I'm a right wing nut job' is out to lunch.'
But you do you.

LOL. Anyone who "thinks" I'm from the extreme left or whatever label you people put on me is utterly delusional. Best just to discuss facts and to dispense with the labeling.
"you people"

Just reading your posts, Brooklyn.
Way, way "left"...and some rather radical prescriptions.
We may agree on some stuff eg Trump/MAGA etc, but you are close to espousing anarchist views at times...other times pretty close to communist views; extreme isolationist as well...If you are saying there are people even further to the left than you, that's likely true. I'd certainly take your word for it.
I like the you people. The whole mine was silly of course Brooklyn is radical and he talks a big game but is a unsuccessful govt lawyer who worked for the IRS. One of the most ineffective entities in all of toby which means he was a victim growing up to the mean people around him and then a victim as an adult of politicians who made his job so hard. It’s everyone else’s fault and he can label anyone he want as anytime he wants. Makes unscientific claims and only reads self selected materials and spends a ton of time watching people on YouTube which is lame.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
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dislaxxic
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by dislaxxic »

Second Russian Defense Sector Bigwig Dies in Two Days
The former commander-in-chief of Russia’s ground forces died in a military hospital earlier this week—the second bigwig in the country’s military industrial complex to die in just two days.

They are just the latest senior Russia military or political elites to drop dead unexpectedly in recent months.

Alexei Maslov, a retired army general, was serving as a special representative of military-technical cooperation for Uralvagonzavod, Russia’s largest tank manufacturer, when he died “unexpectedly” last Saturday, the company announced in a statement.

No cause of death was given.
..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
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NattyBohChamps04
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

dislaxxic wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:27 pm Second Russian Defense Sector Bigwig Dies in Two Days
The former commander-in-chief of Russia’s ground forces died in a military hospital earlier this week—the second bigwig in the country’s military industrial complex to die in just two days.

They are just the latest senior Russia military or political elites to drop dead unexpectedly in recent months.

Alexei Maslov, a retired army general, was serving as a special representative of military-technical cooperation for Uralvagonzavod, Russia’s largest tank manufacturer, when he died “unexpectedly” last Saturday, the company announced in a statement.

No cause of death was given.
..
That's a lot of bigwigs dying this year...

2022 Russian businessmen mystery deaths
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Putin's purch:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... raine-war/

"When Vladimir Putin visited Minsk last week to discuss deepening cooperation, a sarcastic joke by his host, Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, seemed to ring all too true. “The two of us are co-aggressors, the most harmful and toxic people on this planet. We have only one dispute: Who is the bigger one? That’s all,” Lukashenko said.

As Putin approaches New Year’s Eve, the 23d anniversary of his appointment in 1999 as acting Russian president, he appears more isolated than ever.

More than 300 days of brutal war against Ukraine have blown up decades of Russia’s carefully cultivated economic relations with the West, turning the country into a pariah, while Kremlin efforts to replace those ties with closer cooperation with India and China appear to be faltering the longer the war grinds on.

Putin, who started his career as a Soviet KGB agent, has always kept his own counsel, relying on a close inner circle of old friends and confidants while seeming to never fully trust or confide in anyone. But now a new gulf is emerging between Putin and much of the country’s elite, according to interviews with Russian business leaders, officials and analysts.

Putin “feels the loss of his friends,” said one Russian state official with close ties to diplomatic circles, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution. “Lukashenko is the only one he can pay a serious visit to. All the rest see him only when necessary.”

Even though Putin gathered leaders of former Soviet republics for an informal summit in St. Petersburg this week, across the region the Kremlin’s authority is weakening. Putin spoke with Chinese President Xi Jinping over video conference on Friday morning in Moscow in an effort to showcase the two countries’ ties. Although Xi said he was ready to improve strategic cooperation, he acknowledged the “complicated and quite controversial international situation.” In September, he’d made clear his “concerns” over the war.

India’s Narendra Modi this month wrote an article for Russia’s influential Kommersant daily calling for an end to “the epoch of war.” “We read all this and understand, and I think he [Putin] reads and understands too,” the state official said.

Even the Pope, who at the beginning of the war appeared to take care to accommodate Kremlin views, this month compared the war in Ukraine to the Nazi genocide of the Jews.

Among Russia’s elite, questions are growing over Putin’s tactics heading into 2023 following humiliating military retreats this autumn. A divide is emerging between those in the elite who want Putin to stop the military onslaught and those who believe he must escalate further, according to the state official and Tatyana Stanovaya, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Despite a media blitz over the past 10 days, with Putin holding carefully choreographed televised meetings with military top brass and officials from the military-industrial complex, as well as a question-and-answer session with a selected pool of loyal journalists, members of the Russian elite interviewed by The Washington Post said they could not predict what might happen next year and said they doubted Putin himself knew how he might act.

“There is huge frustration among the people around him,” said one Russian billionaire who maintains contacts with top-ranking officials. “He clearly doesn’t know what to do.”

The Russian state official said Putin’s only plan appeared to lie in “constant attempts to force the West and Ukraine to begin [peace] talks” through airstrikes on Ukraine’s critical infrastructure and other threats. Putin repeated the tactic this week by declaring on Christmas Day that he was open to peace talks even as Russia launched another massive missile strike just days later on Thursday, taking out electricity supplies in several regions. “But,” the official said, Putin is willing to talk “only on his terms.”

The billionaire, the state official and several analysts pointed to the postponement of Putin’s annual State of the Nation address, when the Russian president generally lays out plans for the year ahead, and the cancellation of his annual marathon news conference as signs of Putin’s isolation and an effort to shield him from direct questions since he has no map for the road ahead.

The news conference, in particular, could have proved risky given that hundreds of journalists are typically brought to Moscow from Russia’s far-flung regions, which have been disproportionately affected by casualties and the recent partial mobilization.

“In the address, there should be a plan. But there is no plan. I think they just don’t know what to say,” the billionaire said. “He is in isolation, of course. He doesn’t like speaking with people anyway. He has a very narrow circle, and now it has gotten narrower still.”

In the question-and-answer session with the handful of journalists, Putin countered such assertions about the postponement of his speech to parliament. He said he had addressed key issues in recent public meetings, and it was “complicated for me, and the administration, to squeeze it all again into a formal address without repeating myself.”

But his comments on the war have been short on details. He has gone no further than saying conditions in the four Ukrainian territories that he claims to have annexed, illegally, are “extremely difficult,” and that his government would try to end the conflict “the faster, the better.”

Putin declares ‘war’ – aloud – forsaking his special euphemistic operation

Putin again sought to lay the blame on the United States and NATO for dragging out the war, in what seemed almost a tacit admission that he had lost control of the process. “How can he tell us everything is going to plan, when we are already in the 10th month of the war, and we were told it was only going to take a few days,” the state official said.

Putin appeared exhausted in his recent appearances, Stanovaya said. And even if he does have a secret plan of action, most of the Russian elite is losing faith in him, she said.

“He is a figure who in the eyes of the elite appears to be incapable of giving answers to questions,” she said. “The elite does not know what to believe, and they fear to think about tomorrow.”

“To a large degree, there is the feeling that there is no way out, that the situation is irreparable,” she continued, “that they are totally dependent on one person, and it is impossible to influence anything.”

Alexandra Prokopenko, a former adviser at Russia’s Central Bank who resigned and left Russia in the weeks after the start of the invasion, said in an interview that her former colleagues “try not see the war in terms of winners and losers. But they know there is no good exit for Russia right now.”

“There is a feeling that we cannot attain the political aims that were originally forwarded,” the state official said. “This is clear to all.” But no one knows how large a loss Russia can sustain before its leaders believe its existence is in jeopardy, he said.

Further underscoring the growing distance between the president and the business elite, Putin also canceled his annual New Year’s Eve meeting with the country’s billionaires, officially citing infection risks.

With such a huge question mark hanging over the year ahead, two camps have emerged within the elite: “The pragmatists who consider that Russia took on the burden of a war it can’t sustain and needs to stop,” and those who want to escalate, Stanovaya said.

Those in favor of escalation include Yevgeniy Prigozhin, the Putin ally who leads the Wagner Group of mercenaries and continues to publicly berate Russia’s military leadership.

The growing split presents Putin with yet another risk as he heads into 2023, the last year before presidential elections in 2024.

Even though recent polls show Putin retains the support of the vast majority of the population, who for now continue to accept Kremlin propaganda, the overwhelming perception among the elite is that next year, things could become more precarious.

“We don’t know what will happen in the future,” said a longtime member of Russian diplomatic circles, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal. “There might be another wave of mobilization. The economic situation in the next year will start to worsen more seriously.”

Sergei Markov, a hawkish former Kremlin adviser who is still in contact with Putin’s team, said it was clear Putin still did not have an answer to the principal question ahead of him. “There are two possible paths ahead,” Markov said. “One is that the army continues to fight while the rest of society lives a normal life — as it was this year. The second path is as it was when Russia went through World War II, when everything was for the front and for victory. There was such a mobilization of society and the economy.”

There are also inescapable questions about glaring weaknesses in the Russian military that have become apparent in recent months, including its evident inability to properly train and equip the 300,000 called up during the autumn mobilization.

“The fact is that these 300,000 mobilized do not have enough weapons,” Markov said. “When will they get the military technology? Putin also does not have the answer to this question.”

According to Markov, who supports escalation, India and China’s doubts have arisen because Putin did not win fast enough. “Privately they say, ‘Win quicker, but if you can’t win, we can’t build good relations with you,’” he said. “You should either win or admit your loss. We need most of all for the war to end as fast as possible.”

Others said the reason for the tepid relations with India and China’s leaders was because they were clearly more worried about further escalation. “We hear there is a worry about the prospect of escalation to the nuclear level,” the longtime member of Russian diplomatic circles said. “And here, it seems to me everyone spoke very clearly that this is extremely undesirable and dangerous.”

Inside Russia, every now and then, members of the liberal-leaning elite are voicing their growing concern.

In an interview last week with Russian daily RBK, Mikhail Zadornov, chairman of Otkritie, one of Russia’s biggest banks, who served as finance minister from 1997 to 1999, noted that Russia had lost markets in the West that it had been building since Soviet times. “For 50 years, a market, mutual economic connections, were being built. Now they are destroyed for decades to come,” Zadornov said.

On the whole, members of Russia’s economic elite “understand this isn’t going to end well,” the Russian billionaire said. Prokopenko, the former Central Bank official, said the Russian elite, including many under sanctions, are watching the situation in horror: “Everything they built collapsed for no reason.”
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Kismet
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Kismet »

"BREAKING: Former President Trump foreign policy advisor John Bolton said that Donald Trump planned to withdraw the U.S. from NATO and allow Russian expansion in Ukraine and further into Europe."

So for OS and others, maybe THIS is the reason Putin didn't invade Ukraine while Orange Cheato was in charge. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
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youthathletics
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by youthathletics »

Kismet wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:45 am "BREAKING: Former President Trump foreign policy advisor John Bolton said that Donald Trump planned to withdraw the U.S. from NATO and allow Russian expansion in Ukraine and further into Europe."

So for OS and others, maybe THIS is the reason Putin didn't invade Ukraine while Orange Cheato was in charge. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Or...possibly a chess move, with the intent that Putin would stay quiet why Trump was in office, so that Trump could appear to have quelled Putin for the time being. All of a sudden you guys now like Bolton.... :lol:
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
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Kismet
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Kismet »

youthathletics wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:22 am
Kismet wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:45 am "BREAKING: Former President Trump foreign policy advisor John Bolton said that Donald Trump planned to withdraw the U.S. from NATO and allow Russian expansion in Ukraine and further into Europe."

So for OS and others, maybe THIS is the reason Putin didn't invade Ukraine while Orange Cheato was in charge. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
Or...possibly a chess move, with the intent that Putin would stay quiet why Trump was in office, so that Trump could appear to have quelled Putin for the time being. All of a sudden you guys now like Bolton.... :lol:
A chess move? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Looks morel like checkers or, better yet, Follow the Leader. :lol:
I didn't say I liked Bolton. I only quoted him.
DocBarrister
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Numerous Russian Invaders Slaughtered

Post by DocBarrister »

Good start to the New Year for Ukraine, militarily. Of course, from a purely humanitarian perspective, tragic carnage attributable only to the war crimes of Putin.

Ukraine has confirmed it carried out a strike in the occupied region of Donetsk, which it earlier claimed killed 400 Russian troops.

Russian officials contested the figure, saying only 63 troops were killed. Neither claim has been verified, and access to the site is restricted.

The attack on New Year's Day hit a building in the city of Makiivka, where Russian forces were stationed.
It is extremely rare for Moscow to confirm any battlefield casualties.

But this was such a deadly attack, says the BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg, that staying silent most probably wasn't an option.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64142650.amp

I’m guessing the true death count is closer to the Ukrainian figure.

DocBarrister
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Numerous Russian Invaders Slaughtered

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

DocBarrister wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:29 pm Good start to the New Year for Ukraine, militarily. Of course, from a purely humanitarian perspective, tragic carnage attributable only to the war crimes of Putin.

Ukraine has confirmed it carried out a strike in the occupied region of Donetsk, which it earlier claimed killed 400 Russian troops.

Russian officials contested the figure, saying only 63 troops were killed. Neither claim has been verified, and access to the site is restricted.

The attack on New Year's Day hit a building in the city of Makiivka, where Russian forces were stationed.
It is extremely rare for Moscow to confirm any battlefield casualties.

But this was such a deadly attack, says the BBC's Russia editor Steve Rosenberg, that staying silent most probably wasn't an option.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64142650.amp

I’m guessing the true death count is closer to the Ukrainian figure.

DocBarrister
As we were discussing as early as last March and April, the key to Ukraine's ultimate success would be precision targeting with western weaponry that can reach into wherever there are command centers, weapons, and concentrations of soldiers. At the time, we were discussing the importance of providing such weaponry to the Ukrainians asap.

This fall we were discussing the long winter ahead, the Russian effort to create terror for Ukrainian citizenry, whether directly on schools and hospitals or electrical infrastructure, and grinding progress in the snow on the front, the key to Ukraine's routing the Russian military in the spring/summer will be crushing of their morale during the cold winter. They, too, will be suffering the winter fighting...if there are no safe havens, they will be exhausted and demoralized.

Hopefully there will be more such precision strikes.

I'd like to see the Wagner command be tracked and destroyed whenever, wherever possible.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/01/ ... n-ukraine/

What Have We Bargained for in Ukraine?

By MICHAEL BRENDAN DOUGHERTY. January 7, 2023

‘Your money is not charity,” Volodymyr Zelensky told a joint session of the U.S. Congress a few weeks ago. “It is an investment in global security and democracy that we handle in the most responsible way.”

And many conservative hawks, hoping to hold back the rising tide of skepticism among Republicans, have echoed this line. After the speech, Representative Dan Crenshaw called the idea of ending aid to Ukraine “absurd” and said America had “made a pretty good investment here.” My friend and colleague Matthew Continetti writes that “securing America’s position and freedom’s future without direct intervention and for a rounding error in the federal budget is a strategic bargain. Ukraine needs more, not less, U.S. aid, and it needs it now.” In Commentary in November, Noah Rothman wrote that “Kyiv’s victories are our victories, too, insofar as they advance a core American national interest: preserving the stable European covenant that has blessed Western powers with the longest, most durable peace on the Continent in the modern age.”

This view holds that for pennies on the dollar, the U.S. has been able to preserve a democracy threatened by an authoritarian regime, cripple a rival military, strengthen the NATO alliance, prevent Vladimir Putin from an inevitable invasion of NATO territory, and scare off Xi Jinping from ever messing with Taiwan. For these conservatives, the policy preferred by Joe Biden and the Democrats is one whose costs are greatly outweighed by its benefits.

Except, none of this is quite true. Crippling a rival military is only worthwhile when you have a strategic reason for doing so, and we conspicuously lack one. The NATO alliance’s duties have been radically expanded with no radical expansion in the share of the alliance’s burdens shouldered by Europe. Ukraine’s ultra-nationalist project is at odds with the democratic and liberal-internationalist values that are used to sell the conflict abroad. The conflict’s financial and moral costs to the U.S. have been growing for nearly a decade, and taking on Ukraine as a permanent dependent will grow them even more. The arc of the conflict is just as likely to encourage as to discourage Xi in his pursuit of Taiwan, given the ways in which our enmeshment in Europe will deplete our attention, resources, and will to be the world’s cop. And finally, no conflict in this blood-stained area of the globe is a mom-and-pop bingo game in which you can cash out your modest investments at any time; Vladimir Putin and Russia have a say in how this ends.

The advocates for continued aid to Ukraine must downplay the costs involved, because support for continued aid began to drop precipitously when the Biden administration began briefing the press on our strategy. It didn’t help the hawks’ cause when retired general David Petraeus went on Sunday morning television and claimed that if Russia used a so-called tactical nuke in Ukraine, the U.S. would enter the war as a full belligerent, annihilate Russia’s army, and launch decapitation strikes on the Kremlin. It instead made people ask themselves how Russia would respond to such drastic countermeasures, and to shudder at the possible answers.

Americans tend to think of war as moral exercise conducted upon the earth, and many seem to believe that somehow the vigor for democracy displayed in the Ukraine conflict will dissuade China from its ambitions in Taiwan. While it’s true that China may be chastened by Russia’s failure, it may also be delighted to see the U.S. arming Ukraine rather than Taiwan, and pushing the number of American troops in Europe above 100,000. It may notice that the U.S. is now discussing giving 30-year-old Bradley fighting vehicles to Ukraine precisely because it is running out of weapons for the Ukrainians. It may also notice that the U.S. is entering a weapons supply-chain bottleneck. U.S. planners are already noticing that our weapons industry cannot keep up with the artillery demands of the war in Ukraine. China may notice that we are investing all these resources and attention in Europe even as our national-security strategy disclaims the goal of being able to fight two major wars at once. Which factor will be weighing on China’s calculation more, the depth of conviction of our think tankers or our depleted stocks of weapons? According to Jackie Schneider of the Hoover Institution, just “four months of support to Ukraine . . . depleted . . . a third of the US Javelin arsenal and a quarter of US Stingers.” China may also notice that, historically, our involvement in one war makes Americans less eager to enter another.

NATO: Strengthened or Fractured?
Far from strengthening the alliance, the Ukraine conflict has revealed a kind of derangement within NATO and within our thinking about NATO.

Under George W. Bush, the U.S. cajoled unwilling NATO allies to make the promise that one day, Ukraine would become a member of NATO. This had been an identified Russian “red line” going back to the end of the Cold War, echoed not only by the likes of Vladimir Putin but even Russian liberals such as Yegor Gaidar. Crossing it in the manner Bush crossed it — announcing that Ukraine would become a NATO member at some unidentified point in the distant future — was supremely stupid, because it not only angered the Russians but gave them lots of time to work towards ensuring that Ukraine didn’t become a NATO member.

Fred Kaplan wrote last month:
The present war started when Russia invaded Ukraine, period. Russia was not provoked to invade by any interlocking alliances. (Putin may have feared that Ukraine might join NATO, but there was absolutely no such prospect on the horizon.) Ukraine was not tethered to any alliance at all.

But this only gets at the double-mindedness of hawks when it comes to NATO and the war. At once, they hold that the United States’ sponsorship of a vast military buildup of a NATO-interoperable force in Ukraine had nothing to do with Vladimir Putin’s decision to abandon the so-called Minsk II agreement and re-invade Ukraine in February 2022, nor with Putin’s repeated insistence that Ukraine must “demilitarize” itself or be demilitarized by Russia. Simultaneously, they say that the credibility of the NATO alliance is at stake in this conflict, and that the alliance has been strengthened by it. Which is it?

The evidence that the alliance has been strengthened is weak. NATO expansionists have cheered as Finland and Sweden both sought membership in the alliance in response to Russia’s invasion. At first glance, these are far more serious candidates for membership, with greater resources and a more suitable domestic political culture to offer NATO, than recent entrants to the alliance such as North Macedonia. After things are cleared up with Turkey and Hungary, their membership is already pronounced a done deal. The problem is that Sweden is making this deal with a promise to dramatically increase its defense spending, and, like Germany, it is deferring that promise, offering to reach the 2 percent of GDP target by the latter half of this decade, after the next election. For NATO expansionists, the headline out of Finland is that the country has committed to a 70 percent increase in defense spending. But skeptics should note that it’s a one-time commitment, and that Finland brings with it a giant liability: It has 900 miles of border with Russia, the integrity of which will now be NATO’s responsibility.

The hawks will also point to the fact that Germany, in a swell of emotion at the start of the war, committed to reversing decades of German policy, abandoning its Ostpolitik strategy toward Russia and ramping up defense spending. But Germany reversed course on this commitment by December, pushing years into the future its target date for bringing defense spending up to 2 percent of GDP. This came after months and months in which it reneged on various promises to provide Ukraine with weapons systems and defense platforms.

Meanwhile, the leader of the alliance’s other big European power, French president Emmanuel Macron — who was hailed as a hero of the liberal world order during the Trump era — is routinely floating ideas of a European Union– led security pact with Russia that does not include the United States, and warning that the NATO alliance is fracturing.

Ukraine Becomes More Illiberal
Concerns about Ukraine’s internal political culture have been dismissed by hawks as either trivial, self-contradictory, or the stuff of propagandistic Russian conspiracy theories. On their face, there’s something to these complaints. One often hears the accusation that Ukrainians are Nazis, and in the next breath that they are wokesters. Isn’t this a form of derangement?

Indeed, Russian propaganda is in full force, and its assertions sometimes contradict one another. But commentators going back to 2014 have noticed that the Maidan revolution was spearheaded by a mostly liberal coalition that wanted Ukraine to make its future in the EU, and that these liberals were in an effective alliance with Ukrainian ultranationalists such as the neo-Nazi Azov battalion. “It was the liberals’ tolerance of the nationalists on Maidan that led to [violent separatism in Donetsk]. If they had rejected them right away, things might have turned out differently,” Ukrainian sociologist Volodymyr Ischenko told Keith Gessen in 2014.

The same rough alliance exists even today. Ukraine is led by Zelensky, a Jewish comedian. But just this week, Ukraine’s Parliament and other prominent civic organizations marked the birthday of Stepan Bandera, the Ukrainian Nazi collaborator and ultranationalist who sought to liquidate Ukraine of “undesirables.” Prominent members of the Polish government, which has been the most forceful European ally of Ukraine in this present war, issued a rebuke, and reiterated previous demands that Ukraine recognize Bandera’s massacres of Poles and Jews in World War II.

The Ukrainian government’s ultra-nationalist project is in some ways understandable in light of Russia’s invasion and Putin’s denial of a distinct Ukrainian national and ethnic identity. But it is also incompatible with what Westerners understand as basic freedoms. Ukraine began banning political parties it did not like in 2014, starting with the Communist Party. It eventually banned many of the successor parties that grew out of the dissolution of the pro-Russia Party of the Regions, which was represented strongly in the Donbas. Media outlets critical of the government are routinely shut down. For these and other reasons, Ukraine has never been rated as a functioning or mature democracy, even by heavily biased NGOs such as Freedom House.

War is predictably making things worse. “De-Russification” laws recently passed by Ukraine ban the performance of Russian plays. They restrict Ukrainians from importing more than ten Russian-language books at any one time. They forbid publishing writing in Russian unless a Ukrainian equivalent is also published and offered as the first and primary option. This is in a nation where perhaps 20–30 percent of adults have no proficiency in any other language but Russian. After prosecuting several priests of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (one that is still technically tied to the Moscow Orthodox Patriarchate), Zelensky has demanded the suppression of the entire religious communion, which includes 1,200 parishes, and the loyalty of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens. Because of Ukraine’s perilous economic situation, the U.S. is subsidizing not just the Ukrainian military, but the basic functions of the Ukrainian government. Ukraine is certainly the aggrieved party in this invasion, and it qualifies as the David against the Goliath, whose own corruption is well established. But in many ways, Ukraine remains a dysfunctional and corrupt state that depends on the personal rule of oligarchs to function, and it is becoming more illiberal, not less, in this war.

The Bills Yet to Come
Ukraine’s corruption will matter a great deal at the end of this war. The war has wrecked the country’s economy. Estimates of reconstruction costs have risen to $750 billion, and will continue to rise as the war drags on and Russia bombards more of Ukraine’s infrastructure. Even if Russia is beaten back, it hasn’t suffered nearly the economic damage Ukraine has. And so, if reconstruction and rearmament and a reconfiguration of Ukraine’s economy aren’t paid for by someone, Ukraine will quickly find itself at Russia’s mercy again.

The thought of shoveling nearly five times Ukraine’s pre-war GDP through its corrupted institutions should make anyone wince. Will anyone signing the checks ask where the money goes? The Pandora Papers revealed some of Zelensky’s offshore holdings and financial relationships with others in his government, denting his popularity in Ukraine, though barely registering as a blip in the more tightly wound press of the West.

As surely as Ukraine’s government is seeking to de-Russify its language and culture, it will seek to cut economic ties to Russia. This is a massive project that will make mere post-war reconstruction look like a one-night party. It begins to seem an even bigger lift when you consider that the European Union, nearly 20 years after Hungary, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic joined, hasn’t entirely replaced the Cold War–era energy infrastructure — such as the Friendship Pipeline — that partially ties those countries’ economies to Moscow.

EU membership is not in the immediate cards. Germany is still angry at itself for letting political cultures as corrupt as Greece into the union, so it’s not going to consent to Ukraine’s joining anytime soon. And anyway, joining wouldn’t really be in Ukraine’s interest, either. As every Eastern European country has learned, membership in the EU can mean an enormous brain drain, as talented and ambitious citizens seek higher wages in Germany, France, or Ireland. Ukraine already has a depopulation and fertility crisis that threaten its future. The war has already forced countless Ukrainians to seek refuge abroad, and there’s no telling how many of them will return once it ends. The country can ill afford an exodus of the best and brightest who remain.

Lastly, degrading Russia’s military capacity is only a good thing if it is connected to an achievable strategy. Without that strategy, it just sows enmity toward the United States among the Russian people themselves, who are perfectly capable of seeing our intel agencies and Defense Department bragging about and taking exclusive credit for sinking their ships and killing their generals and soldiers.

The bottom line is that for all the progress of the war and Ukraine’s stout defense of itself, the basic problems with U.S. involvement in the region haven’t changed. Ukraine is peripheral to U.S. interests, and the depth of the American people’s commitment to its defense is shallow, which is why war hawks constantly minimize the current financial costs and don’t bother talking about the long-term liabilities of making Ukraine a financial and security dependent of the West. It is also dear to Russian interests, which means Russia is willing to take mighty gambles and endure mighty sacrifices to bring it to heel.

It is hard to ask people to think clearly about war. They become swept up in moralisms, and this can make thinking about what an achievable and tolerable long-term settlement might look like difficult. But what we’ve signed up for by backing Ukraine is a massive, nearly utopian project with obvious, foreseeable risks and potentially ruinous costs. It’s time we started thinking about those dangers more seriously.
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Kismet
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Kismet »

Salty should like this view

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-dept ... rn-europe/

How allied Sweden & Finland can secure Northern Europe
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Nah, you gotta call Ukraine "ultra-nationalist" to satisfy Salty.

You know, wanting independence from Russia is "ultra-nationalist"... :roll:
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:59 am Nah, you gotta call Ukraine "ultra-nationalist" to satisfy Salty.

You know, wanting independence from Russia is "ultra-nationalist"... :roll:
This has to be part of the calculus for committing resources to Ukraine:

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/10/11387106 ... estigation
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

How allied Sweden & Finland can secure Northern Europe -- without even investing 2% of their GDP in their own national defense, while doubling the length of NATO's defended border with Russia & Baltic territorial waters. ...get the US to foot the bill.

They're too White Christian Nationalist.
a fan
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by a fan »

old salt wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:29 pm How allied Sweden & Finland can secure Northern Europe -- without even investing 2% of their GDP in their own national defense, while doubling the length of NATO's defended border with Russia & Baltic territorial waters. ...get the US to foot the bill.
Just as they have for 50+ years, OS. It's why everyone else in NATO got health care and free college decades ago....and our working class has fallen apart. But naturally, you know this. Russia isn't afraid of NATO. Russia is afraid of the US military. Full stop.

Next time? Vote for the liberals like Bernie in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's. They've been telling you this stuff since before you arrived at college. You should have switched parties, and voted for Bernie in the primaries. He could have used your vote. His platform gave you what you want.


Watch what happens with your Republican party. They've got two choices: keep up with the cultural nonsense, telling voters that they can "legislate the gays away", allowing more money to flood to coastal libs as they do nothing when they're in power but hand out tax cuts and blow more money on nothing.

Or they're going to do precisely, exactly what the liberals have been selling since the 1970's......go full pro working class that uses the unparalleled power of America's GDP to help them directly.

It's either one or the other. The only question is: when will they finally put the crazy down, and stop worrying about what the other party does, and actually come up with real policies. If they did that? They'd get a whole mess of votes from the powerless liberal wing in the Dem party.

Based on what we saw on Capitol Hill this week? They're going to stuff the pockets of coastal libs with trickle down economics for at least another generation, if not two.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

a fan wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:59 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:29 pm How allied Sweden & Finland can secure Northern Europe -- without even investing 2% of their GDP in their own national defense, while doubling the length of NATO's defended border with Russia & Baltic territorial waters. ...get the US to foot the bill.
Just as they have for 50+ years, OS. It's why everyone else in NATO got health care and free college decades ago....and our working class has fallen apart. But naturally, you know this. Russia isn't afraid of NATO. Russia is afraid of the US military. Full stop.

Next time? Vote for the liberals like Bernie in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's. They've been telling you this stuff since before you arrived at college. You should have switched parties, and voted for Bernie in the primaries. He could have used your vote. His platform gave you what you want.

Watch what happens with your Republican party. They've got two choices: keep up with the cultural nonsense, telling voters that they can "legislate the gays away", allowing more money to flood to coastal libs as they do nothing when they're in power but hand out tax cuts and blow more money on nothing.

Or they're going to do precisely, exactly what the liberals have been selling since the 1970's......go full pro working class that uses the unparalleled power of America's GDP to help them directly.

It's either one or the other. The only question is: when will they finally put the crazy down, and stop worrying about what the other party does, and actually come up with real policies. If they did that? They'd get a whole mess of votes from the powerless liberal wing in the Dem party.

Based on what we saw on Capitol Hill this week? They're going to stuff the pockets of coastal libs with trickle down economics for at least another generation, if not two.
So you're cheering on the GOP Freedom Caucus in the House for their efforts to eliminate deficit exploding omnibus spending bills.

Bernie would have made our defense as toothless as the EUros & there'd be nobody able to give the Ukrainians what they need to keep the Russians out.

Russia's afraid of the US military because of the weapons & training paid for when the sequester caps on defense spending were lifted.
To get that done, domestic spending caps had to be lifted too.
Biden, Bernie & AOC want to forgive the student loan debt that deficit spending financed & pay benefits to millions more illegal aliens.

The GOP's power for the next 2 years is going to be in what they can block in the House.
The revolt this week was about getting rolled on omnibus deficit spending bills, not on cultural stuff.
Last edited by old salt on Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PizzaSnake
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by PizzaSnake »

a fan wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:59 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 12:29 pm How allied Sweden & Finland can secure Northern Europe -- without even investing 2% of their GDP in their own national defense, while doubling the length of NATO's defended border with Russia & Baltic territorial waters. ...get the US to foot the bill.
Just as they have for 50+ years, OS. It's why everyone else in NATO got health care and free college decades ago....and our working class has fallen apart. But naturally, you know this. Russia isn't afraid of NATO. Russia is afraid of the US military. Full stop.

Next time? Vote for the liberals like Bernie in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's. They've been telling you this stuff since before you arrived at college. You should have switched parties, and voted for Bernie in the primaries. He could have used your vote. His platform gave you what you want.


Watch what happens with your Republican party. They've got two choices: keep up with the cultural nonsense, telling voters that they can "legislate the gays away", allowing more money to flood to coastal libs as they do nothing when they're in power but hand out tax cuts and blow more money on nothing.

Or they're going to do precisely, exactly what the liberals have been selling since the 1970's......go full pro working class that uses the unparalleled power of America's GDP to help them directly.

It's either one or the other. The only question is: when will they finally put the crazy down, and stop worrying about what the other party does, and actually come up with real policies. If they did that? They'd get a whole mess of votes from the powerless liberal wing in the Dem party.

Based on what we saw on Capitol Hill this week? They're going to stuff the pockets of coastal libs with trickle down economics for at least another generation, if not two.
You think they, or any extant party, has two more generations?

I don’t.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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