All Things Russia & Ukraine

[MDlaxfan76]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

To be fair, you were pushing the idea of “assurances “ having been documented in memos, not agreements, as proof of these promises.

Your claim of those memos is accurate, but not the implication that there was any agreement by NATO nor promises locked down in a signed, public agreement.

Rasheed made a more baldly false statement. Apparently that’s his pattern.

[old salt]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

To be fair, you were pushing the idea of “assurances “ having been documented in memos, not agreements, as proof of these promises.

Your claim of those memos is accurate, but not the implication that there was any agreement by NATO nor promises locked down in a signed, public agreement.

Rasheed made a more baldly false statement. Apparently that’s his pattern.

It's not that complicated. I never claimed it was a written agreement.
I did not bring up the diplomatic documents until TLD said Old Soviet did too.
I did that in response to afan's smoke filled room assertion.

[a fan]

The Budapest Memo is no more binding than the JCPOA with Iran. Without Senate ratification as a treaty, it is dependent on the willingness of the President in office to follow through on his predecessors agreements. Diplomats understand that.

You don't think Ukraine is a sovereign nation. So....explain to me why the F Russia let them form their own country in 1990-1? Didn't occur to them? Were they too buy following the Dream Team in the Olympics to notice?

Still waiting for an answer. If you're gonna lecture us on history, tell the whole story.

It would seem that you're wrong. Ukraine isn't traditionally part of Russia. It it was..... in 1990, Ukraine would not have split off. Ukraine would have been called "Russia" starting in 1990.

Got a reason for this? You want to put us in the mind of the Russians, right? And you're claiming that Ukraine is an artificial country, just like Putin, right?

So what happened? Why was Ukraine split off?

...in the 1992 Olympics (winter & summer) Russia & Ukraine were teammates in the Commonwealth of Independent States.
Great ics hockey team, they won the gold.

Nice memory.

You still can't answer the question, can you?

[Kismet]

This discussion is sadly hilarious - and in the final analysis pretty irrelevant to the current situation and events.

The Budapest Memorandum, in hindsight isn't/wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Obviously many parties elected to ignore the provisions over time. Lest Salty place too much emphasis on TREATY (as if that might be somehow bulletproof) - There is a long history in this country of our government disregarding TREATIES with natives that were ACTUALLY signed treaties and not memorandums so not sure what all the hoopla about the distinction.

By its very definition it is not a surprise that things changed on BOTH sides.

With regard to OS' point about Ukraine historically being part of Russia - for over 100 years, we were part of of Great Britain and the British Empire. Something BIG happened and then we no longer were.

Latest news - Zelinskyy will be in DC tomorrow to address a joint session of Congress and visit the WH. That should be fun. Hopefully, Boebert and MTG will be checked for vegetables before entering the chamber. Maybe he will bring evidence of Hunter Biden's laptop.

[DocBarrister]

This discussion is sadly hilarious - and in the final analysis pretty irrelevant to the current situation and events.

The Budapest Memorandum, in hindsight isn't/wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Obviously many parties elected to ignore the provisions over time. Lest Salty place too much emphasis on TREATY (as if that might be somehow bulletproof) - There is a long history in this country of our government disregarding TREATIES with natives that were ACTUALLY signed treaties and not memorandums so not sure what all the hoopla about the distinction.

By its very definition it is not a surprise that things changed on BOTH sides.

With regard to OS' point about Ukraine historically being part of Russia - for over 100 years, we were part of of Great Britain and the British Empire. Something BIG happened and then we no longer were.

Latest news - Zelinskyy will be in DC tomorrow to address a joint session of Congress and visit the WH. That should be fun. Hopefully, Boebert and MTG will be checked for vegetables before entering the chamber. Maybe he will bring evidence of Hunter Biden's laptop.

Ultimately as meaningless and worthless as the Munich Agreement.

Putin is a war criminal and Russia has committed crimes against humanity. Both Putin and Russia must be ground into the dirt and humiliated. Only a complete defeat will deter Russia from ever committing such a travesty again.

DocBarrister

[Typical Lax Dad]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

Old Soviet claimed NATO broke its agreement to not expand and Putin was justified in his invasion…..never said Old Soviet or anyone else said NATO broke a written agreement….and I said America breaks treaties all the time…why you calling out America for backing out on an “agreement” here? That was my point….grasshopper

[njbill]

Hopefully, Boebert and MTG will be checked for vegetables before entering the chamber.

Sadly, these former BFFs can no longer stand to be in the same room with one another so one of them will have to be precluded from attending the speech tomorrow.

They both like guns so maybe they should have a duel to decide. Winner gets to attend. Loser gets sent home in a box.

[a fan]

With regard to OS' point about Ukraine historically being part of Russia - for over 100 years, we were part of of Great Britain and the British Empire. Something BIG happened and then we no longer were.

He's welcome to give his home to the (insert native American tribe) if he believes this nonsense.

Naturally, he doesn't. He's trying to win an argument. That's all this is....

[Typical Lax Dad]

With regard to OS' point about Ukraine historically being part of Russia - for over 100 years, we were part of of Great Britain and the British Empire. Something BIG happened and then we no longer were.

He's welcome to give his home to the (insert native American tribe) if he believes this nonsense.

Naturally, he doesn't. He's trying to win an argument. That's all this is....

Actually Old Salt said let Mexico try to take Texas back with a laughing emoji a few years ago.

[old salt]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

Old Soviet claimed NATO broke its agreement to not expand and Putin was justified in his invasion…..never said Old Soviet or anyone else said NATO broke a written agreement….and I said America breaks treaties all the time…why you calling out America for backing out on an “agreement” here? That was my point….grasshopper

I never said Putin was justified in the invasion. Show us my words saying that.
I explained what motivated Putin & why the Russian people & military supported him.
It's important to understand what motivates our adversaries. Pull your head out of ...the sand.
Many officials within the US govt warned about NATO's eastward expansion & warned that it could lead to a European war. It did.

[old salt]

With regard to OS' point about Ukraine historically being part of Russia - for over 100 years, we were part of of Great Britain and the British Empire. Something BIG happened and then we no longer were.

He's welcome to give his home to the (insert native American tribe) if he believes this nonsense.

Naturally, he doesn't. He's trying to win an argument. That's all this is....

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

[a fan]

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

What in heaven's name makes you think that a single poster here supported Bush's game of Global Cop, mucking with Ukraine? Followed by his brother playing the same game?

Out of everyone here? YOU are the most likely supporter of these games. Gotta keep those sea lanes open, right?

[Typical Lax Dad]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

Old Soviet claimed NATO broke its agreement to not expand and Putin was justified in his invasion…..never said Old Soviet or anyone else said NATO broke a written agreement….and I said America breaks treaties all the time…why you calling out America for backing out on an “agreement” here? That was my point….grasshopper

I never said Putin was justified in the invasion. Show us my words saying that.
I explained what motivated Putin & why the Russian people & military supported him.
It's important to understand what motivates our adversaries. Pull your head out of ...the sand.
Many officials within the US govt warned about NATO's eastward expansion & warned that it could lead to a European war. It did.

You didn’t say he wasn’t justified. That’s good enough for me champ. You can say Putin wasn’t justified…. My thinking is clear. Your opinion is just as wrong as the next person’s old grasshopper.

[Typical Lax Dad]

With regard to OS' point about Ukraine historically being part of Russia - for over 100 years, we were part of of Great Britain and the British Empire. Something BIG happened and then we no longer were.

He's welcome to give his home to the (insert native American tribe) if he believes this nonsense.

Naturally, he doesn't. He's trying to win an argument. That's all this is....

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

Stockholm syndrome.

[old salt]

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

What in heaven's name makes you think that a single poster here supported Bush's game of Global Cop, mucking with Ukraine? Followed by his brother playing the same game?

Out of everyone here? YOU are the most likely supporter of these games. Gotta keep those sea lanes open, right?

You tend to leap over entire decades in your analysis. I was happy to have survived & helped win the first cold war. I did not want to see another. We did not need to do it twice. Remember glasnost & peristroika, then the reset button ? Bush (the elder) & Baker meant it when they told Gorbachev not one inch further east. Whose brother are you talking about ?

[old salt]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

Old Soviet claimed NATO broke its agreement to not expand and Putin was justified in his invasion…..never said Old Soviet or anyone else said NATO broke a written agreement….and I said America breaks treaties all the time…why you calling out America for backing out on an “agreement” here? That was my point….grasshopper

I never said Putin was justified in the invasion. Show us my words saying that.
I explained what motivated Putin & why the Russian people & military supported him.
It's important to understand what motivates our adversaries. Pull your head out of ...the sand.
Many officials within the US govt warned about NATO's eastward expansion & warned that it could lead to a European war. It did.

You didn’t say he wasn’t justified. That’s good enough for me champ. You can say Putin wasn’t justified…. My thinking is clear. Your opinion is just as wrong as the next person’s old grasshopper.

Putin was not justified in the invasion. That goes without saying.

obtw -- nobody really thought he'd do it, ...until the blood stocks began showing up in the field hospitals.

[old salt]

With regard to OS' point about Ukraine historically being part of Russia - for over 100 years, we were part of of Great Britain and the British Empire. Something BIG happened and then we no longer were.

He's welcome to give his home to the (insert native American tribe) if he believes this nonsense.

Naturally, he doesn't. He's trying to win an argument. That's all this is....

No. He's objecting to a disastrous, dangerous war, which we could have been prevented by our not interfering in Ukraine's internal affairs & fomenting 2 revolutions & regime changes, threatening to make Russia's Black Sea Fleet homeport a NATO base.

Stockholm syndrome.

NATO pun intended.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

Old Soviet claimed NATO broke its agreement to not expand and Putin was justified in his invasion…..never said Old Soviet or anyone else said NATO broke a written agreement….and I said America breaks treaties all the time…why you calling out America for backing out on an “agreement” here? That was my point….grasshopper

I never said Putin was justified in the invasion. Show us my words saying that.
I explained what motivated Putin & why the Russian people & military supported him.
It's important to understand what motivates our adversaries. Pull your head out of ...the sand.
Many officials within the US govt warned about NATO's eastward expansion & warned that it could lead to a European war. It did.

You didn’t say he wasn’t justified. That’s good enough for me champ. You can say Putin wasn’t justified…. My thinking is clear. Your opinion is just as wrong as the next person’s old grasshopper.

Putin was not justified in the invasion. That goes without saying.

obtw -- nobody really thought he'd do it, ...until the blood stocks began showing up in the field hospitals.

You didn’t like Trump either. I look forward to your continued criticism of Putin’s unjustified invasion….. Old Serpent.

[jhu72]

Putin's nuclear threat is hollow.

[MDlaxfan76]

Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.

Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?

Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?

The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"

ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?

rasheed?

..

As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.

So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.

But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.

And an Old Soviet also.

Show us where I said there was a written agreement.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book ... ders-early

https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promi ... t-matters/

Rasheed did; that’s what started this discussion.

I know. TLD hasn't figured that out.

Old Soviet claimed NATO broke its agreement to not expand and Putin was justified in his invasion…..never said Old Soviet or anyone else said NATO broke a written agreement….and I said America breaks treaties all the time…why you calling out America for backing out on an “agreement” here? That was my point….grasshopper

I never said Putin was justified in the invasion. Show us my words saying that.
I explained what motivated Putin & why the Russian people & military supported him.
It's important to understand what motivates our adversaries. Pull your head out of ...the sand.
Many officials within the US govt warned about NATO's eastward expansion & warned that it could lead to a European war. It did.

You didn’t say he wasn’t justified. That’s good enough for me champ. You can say Putin wasn’t justified…. My thinking is clear. Your opinion is just as wrong as the next person’s old grasshopper.

Putin was not justified in the invasion. That goes without saying.

obtw -- nobody really thought he'd do it, ...until the blood stocks began showing up in the field hospitals.

wrong, US IC "thought he'd do it".

So did anyone listening closely to Putin.

We all hoped he might blink, but anyone clear-eyed understood the probabilities...just a matter of when.

Likewise, anyone who understood what Putin had been doing with asymmetric, mostly digital, activities to undermine democracies around the world, and who understood that what Putin was doing was weakening resistance to his direct actions to retake "Russian lands", and expand influence to the Mediterranean, by sowing division within democracies who might otherwise oppose these hegemonic ambitions.

Even guys like me knew...and were telling guys like you that this is what Putin was doing and could be anticipated to do more and more aggressively if not punished for it, stopped.

Appeasement with authoritarian aggressors never is the right policy.

But way too much of his propaganda undermining democracies and bolstering right wing "nationalist" ideologies, particularly "white Christian nationalist" ideologies was successful, seducing way too many into thinking Putin was somehow aligned with them or 'not that bad'...or 'not that dangerous'.

We should be rejecting those ideologies wholesale, and embracing multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-racial constitutional democracy wherever it can be fostered. Not all such will be as mature as our own after multiple centuries of evolution, but each should be encouraged to grow and flourish.

And most importantly, we need to be refreshing our own confidence in our own "multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-racial constitutional democracy". That requires work, not apathy or dismissal.