In 1990 NATO signed an agreement with Russia that it would not expand. NATO lied and it’s expanded under every US administration since. Simple as that. American neocons can deflect all they want from this inconvenient facts but that’s what they are, FACTS. From the US orchestrated Maidan coup that overthrew a democratically elected neutral government (literally headquartered from the US Embassy in Ukraine) to the genocide Ukraine has perpetrated against the Donbas, the notion that Putin was “unprovoked” is a farce. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/h ... n-ukraine/
But
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:54 pm
by NattyBohChamps04
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:41 pm
In 1990 NATO signed an agreement with Russia that it would not expand.
Did Russia sign the Budapest agreement with Ukraine saying it would respect Ukraine's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:00 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:41 pm
In 1990 NATO signed an agreement with Russia that it would not expand. NATO lied and it’s expanded under every US administration since. Simple as that. American neocons can deflect all they want from this inconvenient facts but that’s what they are, FACTS. From the US orchestrated Maidan coup that overthrew a democratically elected neutral government (literally headquartered from the US Embassy in Ukraine) to the genocide Ukraine has perpetrated against the Donbas, the notion that Putin was “unprovoked” is a farce. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/h ... n-ukraine/
But
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:41 pm
In 1990 NATO signed an agreement with Russia that it would not expand. NATO lied and it’s expanded under every US administration since. Simple as that. American neocons can deflect all they want from this inconvenient facts but that’s what they are, FACTS. From the US orchestrated Maidan coup that overthrew a democratically elected neutral government (literally headquartered from the US Embassy in Ukraine) to the genocide Ukraine has perpetrated against the Donbas, the notion that Putin was “unprovoked” is a farce. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/h ... n-ukraine/
But
you forgot it’s Hillary’s fault!
Far left is the same as the far right. Saw it first hand in college.
Step one: claim you are the holder of information. Anyone who doesn't have this information isn't in the club, and is being tricked by "fill in boogey man". Members get to feel cool because they're think that this makes them "thinkers", and everyone else is sheep (sound familiar?) (see south park clip on "hippies having it all figured out")
Step two: it's 1000% immaterial of this information is true or not. Doesn't matter. It just has to further the narrative.
Step three: discard ANYTHING that doesn't fit in the narrative they're telling. This is critical. So only tell like 1/4 of the story, and never discuss an issue as a continuous whole, because that ruins their narrative. An example is that for the 2020 election, they ignore that every Republican that won on that same ballot took their seat of power, without complaint. 100% of them, in hundreds of elections on those supposedly "fraudulent' ballots.
That's it. That's the game. Far left. Far right. Doesn't matter...they both use the same MO and tools.
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:41 pm
In 1990 NATO signed an agreement with Russia that it would not expand. NATO lied and it’s expanded under every US administration since. Simple as that. American neocons can deflect all they want from this inconvenient facts but that’s what they are, FACTS. From the US orchestrated Maidan coup that overthrew a democratically elected neutral government (literally headquartered from the US Embassy in Ukraine) to the genocide Ukraine has perpetrated against the Donbas, the notion that Putin was “unprovoked” is a farce. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/h ... n-ukraine/
But
you forgot it’s Hillary’s fault!
Far left is the same as the far right. Saw it first hand in college.
Step one: claim you are the holder of information. Anyone who doesn't have this information isn't in the club, and is being tricked by "fill in boogey man". Members get to feel cool because they're think that this makes them "thinkers", and everyone else is sheep (sound familiar?) (see south park clip on "hippies having it all figured out")
Step two: it's 1000% immaterial of this information is true or not. Doesn't matter. It just has to further the narrative.
Step three: discard ANYTHING that doesn't fit in the narrative they're telling. This is critical. So only tell like 1/4 of the story, and never discuss an issue as a continuous whole, because that ruins their narrative. An example is that for the 2020 election, they ignore that every Republican that won on that same ballot took their seat of power, without complaint. 100% of them, in hundreds of elections on those supposedly "fraudulent' ballots.
That's it. That's the game. Far left. Far right. Doesn't matter...they both use the same MO and tools.
Ahh you excluded the number one tactic, which you hilariously project with this post! Don’t engage in substantive debate, simply ignore the arguments and weaponize identity politics!
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:20 pm
by a fan
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:45 pm
]
Ahh you excluded the number one tactic, which you hilariously project with this post! Eengage in substantive debate, simply ignore the arguments and weaponize identity politics!
You've been asked MULTIPLE questions, my man. You haven't answered ANY of them.
I'd be overjoyed to engage you in debate in this topic, my man!
Start by answering my questions. They're right there, being ignored.....
Edit to add:
"weaponizing identity politics" Translation: call others on their BS and logical fallacies.
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:41 pm
In 1990 NATO signed an agreement with Russia that it would not expand. NATO lied and it’s expanded under every US administration since. Simple as that. American neocons can deflect all they want from this inconvenient facts but that’s what they are, FACTS. From the US orchestrated Maidan coup that overthrew a democratically elected neutral government (literally headquartered from the US Embassy in Ukraine) to the genocide Ukraine has perpetrated against the Donbas, the notion that Putin was “unprovoked” is a farce. https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/h ... n-ukraine/
But
you forgot it’s Hillary’s fault!
Far left is the same as the far right. Saw it first hand in college.
Step one: claim you are the holder of information. Anyone who doesn't have this information isn't in the club, and is being tricked by "fill in boogey man". Members get to feel cool because they're think that this makes them "thinkers", and everyone else is sheep (sound familiar?) (see south park clip on "hippies having it all figured out")
Step two: it's 1000% immaterial of this information is true or not. Doesn't matter. It just has to further the narrative.
Step three: discard ANYTHING that doesn't fit in the narrative they're telling. This is critical. So only tell like 1/4 of the story, and never discuss an issue as a continuous whole, because that ruins their narrative. An example is that for the 2020 election, they ignore that every Republican that won on that same ballot took their seat of power, without complaint. 100% of them, in hundreds of elections on those supposedly "fraudulent' ballots.
That's it. That's the game. Far left. Far right. Doesn't matter...they both use the same MO and tools.
Ahh you excluded the number one tactic, which you hilariously project with this post! Don’t engage in substantive debate, simply ignore the arguments and weaponize identity politics!
Did Russia sign the Budapest agreement with Ukraine saying it would respect Ukraine's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders?
rasheed, saying "signed an agreement" implies that there is hard copy proof of your assertion. The article linked above makes it sound like these claims were just spoken...and not committed to paper. What "agreement" are you referring to?
Can you shed light? It's kinda central to the issue, no?
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:45 pm
]
Ahh you excluded the number one tactic, which you hilariously project with this post! Eengage in substantive debate, simply ignore the arguments and weaponize identity politics!
You've been asked MULTIPLE questions, my man. You haven't answered ANY of them.
I'd be overjoyed to engage you in debate in this topic, my man!
Start by answering my questions. They're right there, being ignored.....
Edit to add:
"weaponizing identity politics" Translation: call others on their BS and logical fallacies.
If you would be “overjoyed” to debate Rasheed, then why did you ignore the article by Eric Zeusse he posted? There are any number of sobering ideas, claims, statistics, and quotes in that article which deserve nuanced debate. Yet you ignored it and simply played to the crowd, a standard ‘BS and logical fallacy’ move. Why?
And amusingly, they learned it from an American, Deming. America got fat and complacent. Got their asses waxed.
Then along came the cult of the almighty MBA. Tried to apply Deming's lessons stateside. And really finished fcuking the blue collar workers. Thanks, Mittens, you fcuk.
In 1989, the Navy tried to adapt Deming's Total Quality Management theories into a Total Quality Leadership program. It was the pet project of a new CNO. We all dutifully read Deming's book, attended training sessions & off site retreats, drafted Total Quality mission statements, hung them on lobby walls alongside our official pictures, & then tried to figure out how to apply it to military operations, a military chain of command, military performance evaluations & promotion criteria & process. Then Tailhook happened, our local Admiral got fired, his female LT aide became a victim/tv celebrity, that CNO took the fall, & we never heard anymore about Deming or TQL. We shifted from TQL workshops to sexual harassment training. Deming's book was interesting in explaining the Japanese auto industry.
Maybe the Navy should have paid more attention in-house - "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions." -RADM Grace Hopper USN
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:07 am
by SCLaxAttack
RADM Hopper, a great woman. Also the person to whom the term computer bug is attributed. At least 30 years ago she was an invited speaker at my employer. Everyone had what she called a “nanosecond” on their chair when they entered the room. It was a thin wire about nine inches long. Turns out each of those wires was the length of the distance light travels in a nanosecond.
I can’t remember the detail or even general nature of her talk but I remember it being wonderful, and I still have that wire.
rasheed wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:45 pm
]
Ahh you excluded the number one tactic, which you hilariously project with this post! Eengage in substantive debate, simply ignore the arguments and weaponize identity politics!
You've been asked MULTIPLE questions, my man. You haven't answered ANY of them.
I'd be overjoyed to engage you in debate in this topic, my man!
Start by answering my questions. They're right there, being ignored.....
Edit to add:
"weaponizing identity politics" Translation: call others on their BS and logical fallacies.
If you would be “overjoyed” to debate Rasheed, then why did you ignore the article by Eric Zeusse he posted? There are any number of sobering ideas, claims, statistics, and quotes in that article which deserve nuanced debate. Yet you ignored it and simply played to the crowd, a standard ‘BS and logical fallacy’ move. Why?
Ahhh, "Petey".
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:14 pm
by a fan
rosinheel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:48 am
If you would be “overjoyed” to debate Rasheed, then why did you ignore the article by Eric Zeusse he posted?
Pete's back!!! Hi Pete! How's the fam?
Several of us have asked questions after having read/watched his citations. He hasn't answered a single question. There right there for you, Pete, if you're interested in answering the questions yourself. Meanwhile, Rasheed has left the building.
Which he's more than welcome to do....
rosinheel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:48 am
There are any number of sobering ideas, claims, statistics, and quotes in that article which deserve nuanced debate.
There are, are they?
So....where's your nuanced debate? Go right ahead, Pete....
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:02 pm
by dislaxxic
Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.
Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?
Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?
The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"
ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?
rasheed?
..
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:32 pm
by RedFromMI
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:02 pm
Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.
Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?
Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?
The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"
ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?
rasheed?
..
As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.
So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.
But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:02 pm
Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.
Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?
Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?
The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"
ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?
rasheed?
..
As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.
So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.
But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:02 pm
Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.
Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?
Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?
The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"
ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?
rasheed?
..
As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.
So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.
But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.
And an Old Soviet also.
Show us where I said there was a written agreement.
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:02 pm
Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.
Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?
Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?
The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"
ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?
rasheed?
..
As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.
So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.
But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.
And an Old Soviet also.
Show us where I said there was a written agreement.
dislaxxic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:02 pm
Some of the video rasheed posted makes attempts at saying that NATO was a bad actor in this whole sordid affair.
Is that true? Did they somehow renege on written agreements> If so, can we look at the specifics?
Also, if so, did NATO expansionism to the borders of Russia JUSTIFY this invasion?
The comments by this MacGregor character are woven together with the words of Chomsky and other leftists in a way to make it seem like they are "of a mind"
ARE they? or is that just some selective editing of various comments to create a narrative?
rasheed?
..
As far as I can tell there is no written agreement for NATO to not expand. There were claims made years ago, and NATO/US spokespeople pushed back then.
So until someone actually shows such a written agreement, and proves it is not a forgery, I would say the historical record so far says this is not true.
But the Russians have been claiming it for quite some time, even though it appears they are lying.
And an Old Soviet also.
Show us where I said there was a written agreement.
