LaxPower Back-Up Stick

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:07 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:51 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:43 pm The solution is reasonable leaders on both sides, but those leaders don't exist or don't hold power today and haven't for decades!!

The US should prepare to wash it's hands of Israel.

When has the PLO or HAMAS put forward a reasonable leader willing to accept a 2 state solution or anything less than the elimination of Israel?

Former Israeli PM Ehud Barak and President Bill Clinton offered Arafat the best deal the Palestinians will ever get on the table. Arafat turned down the two-state deal because he didn’t want to be remembered as the Palestinian leader who gave up the right of return and East Jerusalem.

Arafat’s catastrophic decision has resulted in this … I am now convinced that the Palestinians will never have their own state. And frankly, the world has moved beyond the Palestinians, even their brethren in the Arab world. Israel is far more important to the Arab nations than the Palestinians will ever be again. Indeed, the Palestinian people are more isolated than ever … and the Arab world treats them more as a nuisance and afterthought. What a tragedy … all brought on by the Palestinians’ incompetent and corrupt leaders.

The time for the Palestinians is over … this abomination of an attack by Hamas is the end of the Palestinian quest for their own nation.

DocBarrister

It’s not nearly that simple. Too reductive.

First, they never cared about the Palestinians. Maybe for a month or two in 1968. Always been a MENA puppet, nothings changed there.

As empathetic as I am for the Israeli/Jewish people who’ve been burned, gassed, tortured, bomb, chemically eradicated, pushed into the sea, etc by almost every heritage out there. But nobody said “hey just go bulldoze everyone’s home and bike yours on top of their remains all day and night and disregard their humanity as they’ve been here for a minute and have this Mohammed cat who’s pretty important and he also is deemed to have his origin up on this spot too”.

Basically they’re both a bunch of puppet murderous a holes.

You’d think some on here would logically equate it to Compton, or Rochester NY as I’m looking around the area currently and see the clear war zone that would make the Ho Chi Minh trail look like a ball crawl at Chuck E Cheese. Er wait, I don’t see that at all around Rochester…

I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 9:35 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:49 pm Read my other posts today in this thread on this topic, cradle. I already addressed why it's not terribly likely that Iran was directly involved, green lit etc...but yes, possible.

Iran is Shia and are deeply in bed therefore with Hezbollah, but not with Hamas which is Sunni. And Hezbollah does not appear to have been privy to this massive attack, wasn't prepared to take part, etc. That doesn't mean they don't have any relationship, but it's an uneasy, enemy of my enemy sort of relationship.

Of course, it's possible. So, I'm not "sure" of anything re who funded and helped organize and green lit this attack. And I never claimed to be "sure".

However, makes more sense that Qatar and Egypt were the primary sources of weapons for Hamas, though some may well be Iranian made. They DO fund Hamas.

And there's a decent chance that Russia has had a hand in all this too. They don't care about Shia v Sunni, their objectives are different.

The 2 best intel services in the world were taken by surprise, but you're darn sure that Iran was just a spectator. okie doke.

Neither Egypt nor Qatar stand to benefit from this.

ok, you're fond of saying "lying". That's an absolute bald-faced lie. I've repeatedly said I'm not sure, much less "darn sure" of anything to do with the chain of responsibility for Hamas's action, which I just heard described, IMO accurately, as a "pogrom". The worst murder of Jews since the Holocaust. American citizens among the dead and hostages.

Here's what I do think: Iran is the chief sponsor of terror organizations throughout the ME. No doubt. And that includes financial support for Hamas, though their primary Palestinian proxies are Hezbollah, Shia. There's a reason why Hezbollah is so much better armed and trained than Hamas, and it's not just because Gaza has been under embargo. (though that plays a major factor). Hamas has also received support, weapons and training from Iran. That said, they also have been supported through Egypt and Qatar. These groups are not natural allies, but they do share common cause in their hate for Jews and Israel and for the Great Satan, the US.

My doubts about how closely Iran was involved with this specific atrocity are primarily because Hezbollah does not appear to have been prepared to participate. That doesn't appear to have been a conscious choice, as Hezbollah seems to now getting organized to participate or at least have that option. They've lobbed some rockets, and declared 'solidarity', but not the sort of organization that would suggest close involvement.

The focus for the moment should be on uprooting and destroying Hamas...there are no easy answers as to how to do this without massive loss of civilian life, potentially tens of thousands of innocent lives lost in one of the most densely populated places in the world, 2.2 million people, mostly civilians. I dread this process.

I don't think we should be rooting for Israeli or US strikes on Iranian nuclear, energy or any other aspect of Iran.That may well come if they are found to be directly complicit, but widening this war could be only the more disastrous. However, I think we and allies should recognize that Iran remains a malign influence in the ME and we should re-strengthen our posture towards them.

Separating all this from the Palestinian situation, I think a majority of Israelis and a majority of Palestinians want peace and a two state solution. But terrible leadership and extremists poison this, again and again and again. Once this tragic set of events are behind us, that needs to be a priority.

I think other actions like normalization of relations with Arab states are important, but are not "peace", and can never be a complete answer. They should not be touted as such because that gives a false sense of security. There must be a resolution in which Palestinians can thrive alongside Israelis...in peace. Which is not remotely close to happening...I'm not so fatalistic as some of my friends who believe it's impossible to ever occur.

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:21 am Watch Qatar as they offer to broker a release of the hostages to see if they really are trying to promote peace & reconciliation between the Palestinians & Israelis. They were the closest thing we had to an honest broker with the Taliban. They still host a key US air base & command center. The Trump Admin helped broker their reconciliation with Bahrain, the UAE & the Saudis.

I don't know about this author, his credibility or biases, but he does provide some useful history & info.
It was authored 8 mos ago & seems prescient.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mec/2023/02/03/ ... d-reality/
Sultan Al-Khulaifi, February 3rd, 2023
Qatar’s Relations with Hamas: Misconceptions and Reality

The rule of Hamas in Gaza and its role in the Palestinian arena represents a dilemma for the Arab states. On the one hand, it is seen as legitimate actor among Palestinian factions and by the Arab masses and on other hand, it is considered a terrorist organisation by the US, EU and other actors. Qatar’s relationship with Hamas has been subjected to misinformation and mis-categorisation that connects Qatar to the axis of resistance comprised of Iran, Syria and its proxies and accuses Qatar of supporting terrorism financially. Yet, the latter would put Qatar undoubtedly under the sanctions of the US Treasury. Thus, it is important to ask: What role Qatar plays in Gaza and what are the parameters of its relationship with Hamas?

Qatar’s expanded role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict came after Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections. This victory surprised the Bush Administration which pushed Fatah to run in the elections, whilst Qatar reportedly encouraged Hamas upon an American request to participate the elections. Following the victory, Hamas was shunned and its government was not recognised internationally unless it accepted the Quartet conditions. Qatar tried to mediate between Hamas and Fatah in 2006 but failed due to the extreme difference in positions between the two parties.

After Hamas took over the strip in 2007, Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza and cut it off from any connection with the outside world – rendering it an open air prison. The blockade was intended to overthrow Hamas’s rule, but it was not successful. And with Hamas’s inability to provide services for the people of Gaza, tensions rose with Israel. The latter launched Operation Cast Lead which massacred Gazans but failed to destroy Hamas. Qatar called for an end to the blockade and tried to rally the Arab league to present a unified Arab position to the international community, but Arab divisions were too great to be bridged. At the same time, Qatar closed the Israeli trade office which was a symbol of normalisation during the peace process in the nineties.

Nonetheless, Qatar tried to support the humanitarian situation in Gaza following the war in 2009. It offered to reopen the Israeli trade office in exchange for Israel allowing Qatari aid to flow to Gaza to rebuild the Gaza Strip, an offer rejected by Israel. Following the Arab Spring and the new political order in Egypt, the Emir of Qatar visited in Gaza in 2012 with the aim of breaking the blockade of Gaza. In the visit, he offered a 400 million $ grant to rebuild Gaza. To provide a transparent mechanism for the flow of aid to Gaza, Qatar coordinates with UN organisations on the ground to facilitate the dispatching of aid to the people of Gaza.

Qatar treats Hamas as a reality on the ground that cannot be circumvented. Qatar has notified US officials that they do not support Hamas but has called for engagement between Hamas and Fatah. Qatar’s official position is aligned with the Arab initiative that calls for a two-state solution. Former British Prime Minister and Quartet Envoy has said, that world powers were wrong to boycott Hamas after its electoral win in 2006.

Following Israel’s understanding that it cannot get rid of Hamas and that it was necessary to maintain calm between the two sides, Israel began to rely on Qatari aid to calm the situation in Gaza. Qatar’s aim is to provide humanitarian support and offer hope for the besieged people of Gaza. In the absence of any actor willing to bear the costs of supporting Gaza, Qatar appeared to be in the position to assume the role of aid provider and mediator in the relations between Hamas and Israel. Its hosting of the Hamas political office in 2012 after the movement left its offices in Gaza, was a calculated move to provide a venue for mediation and dialogue in Doha between Hamas officials and foreign dignitaries. This culminated in a newly developed and much moderate Hamas declaration in 2017 that opened the door for Hama’s acceptance of a two-state solution, even on a temporary basis.

Qatar’s relationship with Hamas is based on three foundations. First, Qatar’s support for the Palestinian cause and the objective of reaching a two-state solution that ends the injustices faced by the Palestinian people. Second, Qatar’s role as a mediator, which gives it the space to speak to different actors in the region, regardless of their positions to facilitate dialogue and preserve the stability of the regional order. Third, the humanitarian catastrophe faced by the people of Gaza, which prompts Qatar to play a leading role in ending it. These 3 foundations explain Qatar’s actions towards Gaza and in its dealings with Hamas, and therefore refute any connection between Qatar and the funding of terrorism and puts Qatar’s policy in perspective.

About the author : Sultan Al-Khulaifi is a PhD student in Politics at the University of Glasgow. He is interested in researching the developments of Qatari foreign policy and the Arab regional order.

Interesting. It seems like this is intended to suggest that Quatar is a benign actor. That could be accurate. If so, were they duped into thinking their financial support for humanitarian aid would not be 'fungible' and that Hamas could be persuaded to not commit heinous acts of terrorism? On the other hand, it seems to suggest that Hamas had 'moderated' in 2017...which is to say that an opportunity was lost by the ascendance of the right wing Israeli government which itself has given up on a two-state solution, green lighting settlements in areas that would have to be included in Palestinian territory if such a solution was enacted?

Or they may not be so benign. Hard to know.

The humanitarian tragedy in Gaza is real, but unfortunately, as long as Hamas controls that territory by force and propaganda there's going to be failure.

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Very interesting opinion. What credibility does she have being a British Jew? Someone correct me here because I never knew that the Romans declared this territory as Palestine to eradicate the memory of the Jewish people. I thought the Palestinians people existed for ions and ions. I need MD lax to tell us he is darn sure her opinion is irrelevant.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Very interesting opinion. What credibility does she have being a British Jew? Someone correct me here because I never knew that the Romans declared this territory as Palestine to eradicate the memory of the Jewish people. I thought the Palestinians people existed for ions and ions. I need MD lax to tell us he is darn sure her opinion is irrelevant.

The depth of your knowledge is always an adventure - Not only about Roman and world history but also your native language. It EONS not IONS.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:40 am

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:21 am Watch Qatar as they offer to broker a release of the hostages to see if they really are trying to promote peace & reconciliation between the Palestinians & Israelis. They were the closest thing we had to an honest broker with the Taliban. They still host a key US air base & command center. The Trump Admin helped broker their reconciliation with Bahrain, the UAE & the Saudis.

I don't know about this author, his credibility or biases, but he does provide some useful history & info.
It was authored 8 mos ago & seems prescient.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mec/2023/02/03/ ... d-reality/
Sultan Al-Khulaifi, February 3rd, 2023
Qatar’s Relations with Hamas: Misconceptions and Reality

The rule of Hamas in Gaza and its role in the Palestinian arena represents a dilemma for the Arab states. On the one hand, it is seen as legitimate actor among Palestinian factions and by the Arab masses and on other hand, it is considered a terrorist organisation by the US, EU and other actors. Qatar’s relationship with Hamas has been subjected to misinformation and mis-categorisation that connects Qatar to the axis of resistance comprised of Iran, Syria and its proxies and accuses Qatar of supporting terrorism financially. Yet, the latter would put Qatar undoubtedly under the sanctions of the US Treasury. Thus, it is important to ask: What role Qatar plays in Gaza and what are the parameters of its relationship with Hamas?

Qatar’s expanded role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict came after Hamas won the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections. This victory surprised the Bush Administration which pushed Fatah to run in the elections, whilst Qatar reportedly encouraged Hamas upon an American request to participate the elections. Following the victory, Hamas was shunned and its government was not recognised internationally unless it accepted the Quartet conditions. Qatar tried to mediate between Hamas and Fatah in 2006 but failed due to the extreme difference in positions between the two parties.

After Hamas took over the strip in 2007, Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza and cut it off from any connection with the outside world – rendering it an open air prison. The blockade was intended to overthrow Hamas’s rule, but it was not successful. And with Hamas’s inability to provide services for the people of Gaza, tensions rose with Israel. The latter launched Operation Cast Lead which massacred Gazans but failed to destroy Hamas. Qatar called for an end to the blockade and tried to rally the Arab league to present a unified Arab position to the international community, but Arab divisions were too great to be bridged. At the same time, Qatar closed the Israeli trade office which was a symbol of normalisation during the peace process in the nineties.

Nonetheless, Qatar tried to support the humanitarian situation in Gaza following the war in 2009. It offered to reopen the Israeli trade office in exchange for Israel allowing Qatari aid to flow to Gaza to rebuild the Gaza Strip, an offer rejected by Israel. Following the Arab Spring and the new political order in Egypt, the Emir of Qatar visited in Gaza in 2012 with the aim of breaking the blockade of Gaza. In the visit, he offered a 400 million $ grant to rebuild Gaza. To provide a transparent mechanism for the flow of aid to Gaza, Qatar coordinates with UN organisations on the ground to facilitate the dispatching of aid to the people of Gaza.

Qatar treats Hamas as a reality on the ground that cannot be circumvented. Qatar has notified US officials that they do not support Hamas but has called for engagement between Hamas and Fatah. Qatar’s official position is aligned with the Arab initiative that calls for a two-state solution. Former British Prime Minister and Quartet Envoy has said, that world powers were wrong to boycott Hamas after its electoral win in 2006.

Following Israel’s understanding that it cannot get rid of Hamas and that it was necessary to maintain calm between the two sides, Israel began to rely on Qatari aid to calm the situation in Gaza. Qatar’s aim is to provide humanitarian support and offer hope for the besieged people of Gaza. In the absence of any actor willing to bear the costs of supporting Gaza, Qatar appeared to be in the position to assume the role of aid provider and mediator in the relations between Hamas and Israel. Its hosting of the Hamas political office in 2012 after the movement left its offices in Gaza, was a calculated move to provide a venue for mediation and dialogue in Doha between Hamas officials and foreign dignitaries. This culminated in a newly developed and much moderate Hamas declaration in 2017 that opened the door for Hama’s acceptance of a two-state solution, even on a temporary basis.

Qatar’s relationship with Hamas is based on three foundations. First, Qatar’s support for the Palestinian cause and the objective of reaching a two-state solution that ends the injustices faced by the Palestinian people. Second, Qatar’s role as a mediator, which gives it the space to speak to different actors in the region, regardless of their positions to facilitate dialogue and preserve the stability of the regional order. Third, the humanitarian catastrophe faced by the people of Gaza, which prompts Qatar to play a leading role in ending it. These 3 foundations explain Qatar’s actions towards Gaza and in its dealings with Hamas, and therefore refute any connection between Qatar and the funding of terrorism and puts Qatar’s policy in perspective.

About the author : Sultan Al-Khulaifi is a PhD student in Politics at the University of Glasgow. He is interested in researching the developments of Qatari foreign policy and the Arab regional order.

Interesting. It seems like this is intended to suggest that Quatar is a benign actor. That could be accurate. If so, were they duped into thinking their financial support for humanitarian aid would not be 'fungible' and that Hamas could be persuaded to not commit heinous acts of terrorism? On the other hand, it seems to suggest that Hamas had 'moderated' in 2017...which is to say that an opportunity was lost by the ascendance of the right wing Israeli government which itself has given up on a two-state solution, green lighting settlements in areas that would have to be included in Palestinian territory if such a solution was enacted?

Or they may not be so benign. Hard to know.

The humanitarian tragedy in Gaza is real, but unfortunately, as long as Hamas controls that territory by force and propaganda there's going to be failure.

Kinda like the same failure Adolph Hitler inflicted on the German people. Hamas and Hitler have quite a bit in common, their hatred of Jews.

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:45 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Very interesting opinion. What credibility does she have being a British Jew? Someone correct me here because I never knew that the Romans declared this territory as Palestine to eradicate the memory of the Jewish people. I thought the Palestinians people existed for ions and ions. I need MD lax to tell us he is darn sure her opinion is irrelevant.

The depth of your knowledge is always an adventure - Not only about Roman and world history but also your native language. It EONS not IONS.

The grammar nazis strike again. My phone corrected eons to ions dumbass. I apologize for not catching the grammatical error. If that is what your concerned about then you need to get a life.

Did you listen to the link tech 37 posted? Did you listen to what the woman said?? When you listen to what she said you can excuse yourself for your ignorance and stupidity. Until that point in time you remain ignorant and stupid, that is probably your comfort zone...

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:59 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:45 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Very interesting opinion. What credibility does she have being a British Jew? Someone correct me here because I never knew that the Romans declared this territory as Palestine to eradicate the memory of the Jewish people. I thought the Palestinians people existed for ions and ions. I need MD lax to tell us he is darn sure her opinion is irrelevant.

The depth of your knowledge is always an adventure - Not only about Roman and world history but also your native language. It EONS not IONS.

The grammar nazis strike again. My phone corrected eons to ions dumbass. I apologize for not catching the grammatical error. If that is what your concerned about then you need to get a life.

Did you listen to the link tech 37 posted? Did you listen to what the woman said?? When you listen to what she said you can excuse yourself for your ignorance and stupidity. Until that point in time you remain ignorant and stupid, that is probably your comfort zone...

This from an avatar of ignorance and stupidity - DUMBASS - so perceptive that you missed the wink emoji!

Spell check is not an excuse for NOT READING what you wrote.

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:45 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Very interesting opinion. What credibility does she have being a British Jew? Someone correct me here because I never knew that the Romans declared this territory as Palestine to eradicate the memory of the Jewish people. I thought the Palestinians people existed for ions and ions. I need MD lax to tell us he is darn sure her opinion is irrelevant.

The depth of your knowledge is always an adventure - Not only about Roman and world history but also your native language. It EONS not IONS.

Read the link dumbass..... it will take 18 minutes of your time... then you can opine on the topic without sounding like a dumbass.... dumbass...

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

Me too: Mila-18 and Exodus, a long time ago.

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:08 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

Me too: Mila-18 and Exodus, a long time ago.

Not to mention that EXODUS was historical FICTION.
Having listened to this discussion IMHO It's never a good idea to oversimplify complex issues in the name of "understanding". I'm afraid that Understanding complex issues requires complex understanding. That said, the English lady does a very good job of describing the history of the area. Whether people like it or not, Jews were there before most other peoples but they left and many millions of the ended up in Europe before the Nazis attempted to exterminate them. Returning them to their native land whilst a noble idea fails to recognize that other peoples also were living there for many 100s of years

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:08 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

Me too: Mila-18 and Exodus, a long time ago.

Yep, read both. Gave an oral report of QBVII in HS (whew). Class actually hung in a couple minutes after bell so I could finish, not because my report was so great but because a section I was reading from was so riveting.

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:04 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:59 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:45 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Very interesting opinion. What credibility does she have being a British Jew? Someone correct me here because I never knew that the Romans declared this territory as Palestine to eradicate the memory of the Jewish people. I thought the Palestinians people existed for ions and ions. I need MD lax to tell us he is darn sure her opinion is irrelevant.

The depth of your knowledge is always an adventure - Not only about Roman and world history but also your native language. It EONS not IONS.

The grammar nazis strike again. My phone corrected eons to ions dumbass. I apologize for not catching the grammatical error. If that is what your concerned about then you need to get a life.

Did you listen to the link tech 37 posted? Did you listen to what the woman said?? When you listen to what she said you can excuse yourself for your ignorance and stupidity. Until that point in time you remain ignorant and stupid, that is probably your comfort zone...

This from an avatar of ignorance and stupidity - DUMBASS - so perceptive that you missed the wink emoji!

Spell check is not an excuse for NOT READING what you wrote.

So says you... why don't you have this chat with my phone?? So now your full of prejudice and hatred towards green people...shame on you. Green people have feelings too. The Hulk feels really sad....

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thank you for response Coaster. I listened to her talk and was impressed with her knowledge. What I'm unclear on is how she defined the Palestinian people. I was always under the impression the Palestinian people had existed in Israel for a very long time. It would seem that the two nation solution is now a pipe dream. There are powerful forces that want Israel destroyed. There is a very powerful nation of Israel that will never allow that to happen. I feel bad for those people that live in Gaza right now. They are the folks who will suffer the most. There is no good end to this. I wish that was possible.

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:12 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:08 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

Me too: Mila-18 and Exodus, a long time ago.

Not to mention that EXODUS was historical FICTION.
Having listened to this discussion IMHO It's never a good idea to oversimplify complex issues in the name of "understanding". I'm afraid that Understanding complex issues requires complex understanding.

Understood; agreed.

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:28 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:12 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:08 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

Me too: Mila-18 and Exodus, a long time ago.

Not to mention that EXODUS was historical FICTION.
Having listened to this discussion IMHO It's never a good idea to oversimplify complex issues in the name of "understanding". I'm afraid that Understanding complex issues requires complex understanding.

Understood; agreed.

The problem, of course, is that she's telling one side of the story. Where's the other side's view?

The thing that's always made me angry is that Egypt gets a pass, and could do so much to help the situation.

a fan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:09 pm

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:28 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:12 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 11:08 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:41 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:19 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:04 am I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

Me too: Mila-18 and Exodus, a long time ago.

Not to mention that EXODUS was historical FICTION.
Having listened to this discussion IMHO It's never a good idea to oversimplify complex issues in the name of "understanding". I'm afraid that Understanding complex issues requires complex understanding.

Understood; agreed.

The problem, of course, is that she's telling one side of the story. Where's the other side's view?

The thing that's always made me angry is that Egypt gets a pass, and could do so much to help the situation.

That is why I am asking, about this clip and generally, how helpful it really is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, Britain's obligations after WW1, etc., because those sorts of debates generally get you to a dead heat of competing histories -- as I think they probably do here. I am suggesting that it may be best to jettison the historical territorial competitions, and focus on the reality on the ground: Israel received statehood and recognition from other nations, starting in 1948, and even Egypt in 1980. Palestinians were at the same time displaced and made into a subjugated minority in their own homeland. This is where we are.