National Championship — Northwestern vs. Boston College

[lacrossemwj]

Can't it be both...skill and luck? She made the smart move, went in the right direction, and by virtue of both skill and luck, her shin/foot was in the right spot to make the save. A lot of things in sports (and life) are combinations of skill and luck.

Nope--if she moved her leg, she gets full credit for a skilled save. The fact that luck was even brought up after getting a clear look at the replay is mind boggling. Either a jaundiced eye or an uninformed eye saw that save as luck.

OK. I have no dog in this fight at all. She made an amazing, just-when-they-needed-it clutch save and is clearly a highly skilled goalie. Now can someone answer me about why Kayla Martello was left off every AA list when she saved BC in multiple games, was an IL AA last year, and was 4th on their team in goals as a sophomore? It's not exactly like she came out of nowhere

[Brownlax]

Can't it be both...skill and luck? She made the smart move, went in the right direction, and by virtue of both skill and luck, her shin/foot was in the right spot to make the save. A lot of things in sports (and life) are combinations of skill and luck.

Nope--if she moved her leg, she gets full credit for a skilled save. The fact that luck was even brought up after getting a clear look at the replay is mind boggling. Either a jaundiced eye or an uninformed eye saw that save as luck.

OK. I have no dog in this fight at all. She made an amazing, just-when-they-needed-it clutch save and is clearly a highly skilled goalie. Now can someone answer me about why Kayla Martello was left off every AA list when she saved BC in multiple games, was an IL AA last year, and was 4th on their team in goals as a sophomore? It's not exactly like she came out of nowhere

I have posted about this a few times. Absolute joke. She has 180 goals in her career with 6 of them being her frosh year.

174 goals in last 3 years, 68 this year!! Only 12 women have more goals than her this year.

One big positive is that she was named MOP of the tournament.

Absolutely a joke!!

[Lax101]

Agree KM is deserving of more recognition. In my opinion AA honorable mention. Can someone tell me who on 1st-3rd team AA list she should replace? People associated with BC team will say that she is the 4th best attacker. Say something about BC team. BC low attackers do more to make others better and Clark is a better flat out scorer - she had 6 points in Natty Final. Perhaps being 4th attacker is the reason. KM also gets opportunities because people around her are focused on more so. Just something to consider. All 5 of her goals were assisted it the Natty, so kuddo's to the feeds as well - many of which were pretty darn good.

[2004wrongisland]

Agree KM is deserving of more recognition. In my opinion AA honorable mention. Can someone tell me who on 1st-3rd team AA list she should replace? People associated with BC team will say that she is the 4th best attacker. Say something about BC team. BC low attackers do more to make others better and Clark is a better flat out scorer - she had 6 points in Natty Final. Perhaps being 4th attacker is the reason. KM also gets opportunities because people around her are focused on more so. Just something to consider. All 5 of her goals were assisted it the Natty, so kuddo's to the feeds as well - many of which were pretty darn good.

Off ball players seem to always get overlooked , but are incredibly valuable. As I posted earlier this season, Martello is the best off ball player in the country. That skill not only allows her to score a ton of goals but opens the field up for her dodging teammates.

[Brownlax]

Agree KM is deserving of more recognition. In my opinion AA honorable mention. Can someone tell me who on 1st-3rd team AA list she should replace? People associated with BC team will say that she is the 4th best attacker. Say something about BC team. BC low attackers do more to make others better and Clark is a better flat out scorer - she had 6 points in Natty Final. Perhaps being 4th attacker is the reason. KM also gets opportunities because people around her are focused on more so. Just something to consider. All 5 of her goals were assisted it the Natty, so kuddo's to the feeds as well - many of which were pretty darn good.

Kayla’s role is not as a dodger. She’s a pure finisher who is incredible inside. She catches everything and she has a ridiculously high shooting percentage. She does exactly what she supposed to do.

And those other players might not have the assists that they should have if it wasn’t for her.

[Lax101]

I'm a fan of KM, but lets not get carried away. She is 4th out of 4 attackers in points. Her shooting percentage is 4th on the team. Her assists are almost non-existent. She does her role very well. She shot great in Natty Champ. Not so well in semis (1 for 6) vs Cuse. Thats lacrosse. One could even argue Dolce should have been MVP of Natty, or even Clark who had more points. Im thrilled for KM getting MVP but lets be fair in our analysis.

[Bystanders]

Catch and shoot rarely gets appreciated. Even at the professional level. Cormier broke the all time UVA goals record this year and didn’t even get drafted by the PLL. She seems similar.

[user1020]

Agree KM is deserving of more recognition. In my opinion AA honorable mention. Can someone tell me who on 1st-3rd team AA list she should replace? People associated with BC team will say that she is the 4th best attacker. Say something about BC team. BC low attackers do more to make others better and Clark is a better flat out scorer - she had 6 points in Natty Final. Perhaps being 4th attacker is the reason. KM also gets opportunities because people around her are focused on more so. Just something to consider. All 5 of her goals were assisted it the Natty, so kuddo's to the feeds as well - many of which were pretty darn good.

Kayla’s role is not as a dodger. She’s a pure finisher who is incredible inside. She catches everything and she has a ridiculously high shooting percentage. She does exactly what she supposed to do.

And those other players might not have the assists that they should have if it wasn’t for her.

Martello fit in perfect with this BC attack. They share the ball well and the offense needed an off ball player of her caliber with so many good feeders existing on this offense. They didn’t need another dodger. Martello and Davis both benefited from each other as each played off each others strengths. I will be interested to see how Davis does next year with BC’s top 2 cutters in Martello and Smith gone. I agree she is the 4th of the 4 attackers, but she is better than a fair amount of attackers given HM status.

[LaxPundit07]

Can't it be both...skill and luck? She made the smart move, went in the right direction, and by virtue of both skill and luck, her shin/foot was in the right spot to make the save. A lot of things in sports (and life) are combinations of skill and luck.

Nope--if she moved her leg, she gets full credit for a skilled save. The fact that luck was even brought up after getting a clear look at the replay is mind boggling. Either a jaundiced eye or an uninformed eye saw that save as luck.

Thank you. I said this a few days ago. If you claim that save was luck you know nothing about goalkeeping.

[Brownlax]

I'm a fan of KM, but lets not get carried away. She is 4th out of 4 attackers in points. Her shooting percentage is 4th on the team. Her assists are almost non-existent. She does her role very well. She shot great in Natty Champ. Not so well in semis (1 for 6) vs Cuse. Thats lacrosse. One could even argue Dolce should have been MVP of Natty, or even Clark who had more points. Im thrilled for KM getting MVP but lets be fair in our analysis.

Ok I’ll bite Lax101

Two things:
1. “Let’s not get carried away” - who is getting carried away?

2. “let’s be fair in our analysis” - so far all I see is facts - how is that not fair?

[NattyBohChamps04]

Can't it be both...skill and luck? She made the smart move, went in the right direction, and by virtue of both skill and luck, her shin/foot was in the right spot to make the save. A lot of things in sports (and life) are combinations of skill and luck.

Nope--if she moved her leg, she gets full credit for a skilled save. The fact that luck was even brought up after getting a clear look at the replay is mind boggling. Either a jaundiced eye or an uninformed eye saw that save as luck.

Thank you. I said this a few days ago. If you claim that save was luck you know nothing about goalkeeping.

I coached a player who earned all-world honors ~5 years after I coached her in college. My sibling was one of the best goalies in the US a long time ago. I've coached and played against multiple Team USA goalies on the men's and women's side.

It's a combination of luck and skill. Skill to know where to move to, and luck that you're not 1"-2" on the wrong side of history.

But I know nothing about goalkeeping. Hard work creates good luck. Funny how that works.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Can't it be both...skill and luck? She made the smart move, went in the right direction, and by virtue of both skill and luck, her shin/foot was in the right spot to make the save. A lot of things in sports (and life) are combinations of skill and luck.

Nope--if she moved her leg, she gets full credit for a skilled save. The fact that luck was even brought up after getting a clear look at the replay is mind boggling. Either a jaundiced eye or an uninformed eye saw that save as luck.

Thank you. I said this a few days ago. If you claim that save was luck you know nothing about goalkeeping.

I coached a player who earned all-world honors ~5 years after I coached her in college. My sibling was one of the best goalies in the US a long time ago. I've coached and played against multiple Team USA goalies on the men's and women's side.

It's a combination of luck and skill. Skill to know where to move to, and luck that you're not 1"-2" on the wrong side of history.

But I know nothing about goalkeeping. Hard work creates good luck. Funny how that works.

I couldn't care less for all your credentials. For anyone, no matter who they are, to view a save like that and bring up the word "luck" is at best inappropriate and at worst ignorant and/or stupid. Timing for the ill-considered and nit-picky original comment couldn't have been worse.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Can't it be both...skill and luck? She made the smart move, went in the right direction, and by virtue of both skill and luck, her shin/foot was in the right spot to make the save. A lot of things in sports (and life) are combinations of skill and luck.

Nope--if she moved her leg, she gets full credit for a skilled save. The fact that luck was even brought up after getting a clear look at the replay is mind boggling. Either a jaundiced eye or an uninformed eye saw that save as luck.

Thank you. I said this a few days ago. If you claim that save was luck you know nothing about goalkeeping.

I coached a player who earned all-world honors ~5 years after I coached her in college. My sibling was one of the best goalies in the US a long time ago. I've coached and played against multiple Team USA goalies on the men's and women's side.

It's a combination of luck and skill. Skill to know where to move to, and luck that you're not 1"-2" on the wrong side of history.

But I know nothing about goalkeeping. Hard work creates good luck. Funny how that works.

I couldn't care less for all your credentials. For anyone, no matter who they are, to view a save like that and bring up the word "luck" is at best inappropriate and at worst ignorant and/or stupid. Timing for the ill-considered and nit-picky original comment couldn't have been worse.

Lol. It was a great save nonetheless. Not worth getting so wound up about it buddy. I wasn't talking to you, but if you wanna be wrong too, then that's your right.

[laxdadpat]

KM won the final game for BC. It was working for her that day, not so much against Cuse. The BC team is stacked with talent, but their bench is also full of talented players that could play in any BC game. Getting to the national championship game 7 times in a row is a credit to AWW. She has mastered the art making great players with different skill sets work together. Putting the puzzle together and keeping players happy is the hardest part of coaching and she may be the best at it. KAH is still as good as a coach in the game IMHO. We saw the 2 best coaches going and AWW is making a play at the best current coach now that she is starting to get rings.

[laxfan9999]

It seemed after the 6-0 start that the Northwestern Coaches had the deer in the headlights look like two years ago vs UNC. BC made the adjustments and Northwestern stuck with what got them there- we have better players and they will
Make plays. Laliberty struggling that game didn’t help their cause.

[laxdadpat]

It seemed after the 6-0 start that the Northwestern Coaches had the deer in the headlights look like two years ago vs UNC. BC made the adjustments and Northwestern stuck with what got them there- we have better players and they will
Make plays. Laliberty struggling that game didn’t help their cause.

Agree. The balance between sticking with a game plan that got you up 6-0 and adjusting is easier said than done. AWW stayed calm and kept her players confidence up. It's not like Scane and Taylor haven't seen double teams or face guards all year. KAH needed to have a few ways to get easy goals with a defense constantly double teaming the ball and leaving open players. BC got super aggressive and I always think the more aggressive teams usually wins any game between teams with similar talent.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Can't it be both...skill and luck? She made the smart move, went in the right direction, and by virtue of both skill and luck, her shin/foot was in the right spot to make the save. A lot of things in sports (and life) are combinations of skill and luck.

Nope--if she moved her leg, she gets full credit for a skilled save. The fact that luck was even brought up after getting a clear look at the replay is mind boggling. Either a jaundiced eye or an uninformed eye saw that save as luck.

Thank you. I said this a few days ago. If you claim that save was luck you know nothing about goalkeeping.

I coached a player who earned all-world honors ~5 years after I coached her in college. My sibling was one of the best goalies in the US a long time ago. I've coached and played against multiple Team USA goalies on the men's and women's side.

It's a combination of luck and skill. Skill to know where to move to, and luck that you're not 1"-2" on the wrong side of history.

But I know nothing about goalkeeping. Hard work creates good luck. Funny how that works.

I couldn't care less for all your credentials. For anyone, no matter who they are, to view a save like that and bring up the word "luck" is at best inappropriate and at worst ignorant and/or stupid. Timing for the ill-considered and nit-picky original comment couldn't have been worse.

Lol. It was a great save nonetheless. Not worth getting so wound up about it buddy. I wasn't talking to you, but if you wanna be wrong too, then that's your right.

Whether you intended to talk to me or not--you did. You quoted me so naturally I got a notification. We, who argued the save was skill, were correct. Bringing the element of luck into it was just plain dumb. If this was a Dissect-and-Analyze-Goaltending thread--sure, relevant to discuss.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Whether you intended to talk to me or not--you did. You quoted me so naturally I got a notification. We, who argued the save was skill, were correct. Bringing the element of luck into it was just plain dumb. If this was a Dissect-and-Analyze-Goaltending thread--sure, relevant to discuss.

I quoted LaxPundit07. The forum doesn't send out notifications for quotes within a quote, so whatever...

The save was a combination of a lot of skill and some luck, plain and simple. Call it names all you want, it doesn't change that. She gets credit for the skill, the training, the hard work, the save, and a share of the credit for BC beating NU in the national championship. In the end, that's all that matters, and she's a national champion!

[njbill]

Dolce was in a very difficult position not of her own making. NU ran a nifty play that fooled the BC defense. The play was bang-bang so it isn’t entirely accurate to say the defense hung her out to dry, but that was the effect. Amonte was one on none with Dolce. There was no defender to cut off one side. No defender to get a stick on a stick.

To my eyes Dolce did the right thing in not coming too far off her line. Had she done so – had she tried to stuff Amonte – Amonte could have easily flipped the ball around, behind, or over her since there was no defender to interfere with her shot.

Conventional wisdom is that goalies should stay on their feet (not jump) and should try to make saves with their stick not their feet. This isn’t field hockey or ice hockey where the shot comes from surface level and often doesn’t get higher than the reach of the tender’s foot.

Amonte showed off-stick high. Here is my one criticism of Dolce on the play. She left her feet, jumping left. I don’t think she needed to do so. I believe she is 5’10’’ and can easily get her stick up to the 6’ crossbar. By jumping left, that made it more difficult to adjust (with her stick) to a low shot which is what Amonte eventually took. And it would have made it more difficult to adjust to a stick side shot had Amonte shot there.

While normally you don’t want goalies to try to make saves with their feet, Dolce was in a desperate spot. The shot was going to beat her stick and torso. All she had left was her leg. No question it was a very athletic, skilled move to throw out her leg. Much credit to Dolce for that. At the end of the day, that is what got the job done. But to deny there was some luck involved in the ball hitting her shin/lower shin/ankle/foot (exact location is immaterial to this debate) is to deny reality, physics, and common sense. Her leg was moving parallel to the goal line while the ball was moving perpendicular to the goal line. Fortunately for Dolce and BC, the ball not only hit her lower extremity, but it bounced out instead of glancing off and going in. 8-9 times out of 10 that ball goes into the net.

In the final analysis, Dolce made the save. She did her job. All the credit in the world to her for doing that at a very critical time in the game. It takes nothing away from her to say some luck was involved. I’ll bet she would agree.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Whether you intended to talk to me or not--you did. You quoted me so naturally I got a notification. We, who argued the save was skill, were correct. Bringing the element of luck into it was just plain dumb. If this was a Dissect-and-Analyze-Goaltending thread--sure, relevant to discuss.

I quoted LaxPundit07. The forum doesn't send out notifications for quotes within a quote, so whatever...

The save was a combination of a lot of skill and some luck, plain and simple. Call it names all you want, it doesn't change that. She gets credit for the skill, the training, the hard work, the save, and a share of the credit for BC beating NU in the national championship. In the end, that's all that matters, and she's a national champion!

Of course notifications are sent. I still have both of them.

Yes, Dolce put in the hard work and she is now a national champion. We can certainly agree on those facts.