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Ex-defense secretary: Trump's push to get US troops out of Afghanistan possibly 'undermined' deal with Taliban
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:48 am
by DocBarrister
Washington (CNN)Former Defense Secretary Mark Esper said Tuesday that he was concerned that then-President Donald Trump "undermined" the US' 2020 agreement with the Taliban by pushing for US forces to leave Afghanistan without the Taliban meeting the conditions of the deal.
The Trump administration's "Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan" outlined a series of commitments from the US and the Taliban related to troop levels, counterterrorism and intra-Afghan dialogue aimed at bringing about "a permanent and comprehensive ceasefire."
But, Esper told CNN's Christiane Amanpour, "my concern was that President Trump, by continuing to want to withdraw American forces out of Afghanistan, undermined the agreement, which is why in the fall when he was calling for a return of US forces by Christmas, I objected and formally wrote a letter to him, a memo based on recommendations from the military chain of command and my senior civilian leadership that we not go further -- that we not reduce below 4,500 troops unless and until conditions were met by the Taliban."
"Otherwise," Esper continued, "we would see a number of things play out, which are unfolding right now in many ways."
Trump fired Esper in November 2020 in the wake of the presidential election.
The agreement between the Taliban and the US has come under fresh scrutiny in recent days after Afghanistan's civilian government in Kabul fell to Taliban fighters this weekend, almost two decades after they were driven from the city by US troops.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics ... index.html
DocBarrister
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:06 am
by Kismet
Eloquent and impassioned speech from British MP/veteran Tom Tugendhat who specifically lowered the boom on Joe Biden's comments on Afghan military.
https://twitter.com/JamesAALongman/stat ... 5324484608
He gives everyone much to think about especially Uncle Joe. In apparent rush to get out, throwing our NATO allies under the bus as well as Afghan military is not only not a good look but likely not in our national interest going forward.
I'm reminded of Benjamin Franklin's famous line on the eve of signing the Declaration of Independence
"We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:21 am
by Farfromgeneva
youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:44 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:31 pm
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:17 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:08 pm
Based on Ned Price at today's State Dept briefing, it appears our US citizens are departing Kabul via military shuttle flights to Doha, Qatar AND Kuwait City, for further transfer to airline flights to the US.
...more return on investment from the large air bases we've maintained in the Gulf.
The French flights are evacuating through the air base we share in & with the UAE
Any word on who/what exactly are these Americans?
Greedy corporatists profiting from the now lost imperialist war
or Christian missionaries trying to convert the "infidels" from their erroneous ways?
My father in law spent time over there around 8-10yrs ago as they were managing a power plant for DOD or whatever entity (presumably via GSA but don’t know for sure) in afghanistan. Are you suggesting if he were still there he should be left behind or not treated like a citizen of the US? A guy who’s sponsored multiple niece/nephews, took care of his mother and retarded adult sister after his father died, tutors young kids in math through a program and has funded all the stained glass at his church among other things.
If that’s the implication of your question then it’s way way out of line and isn’t a good look.
Crazy how he put them in to 1 of two classes....SMDH.
I guess no one can be as pure.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:23 am
by Farfromgeneva
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:13 am
Let them come out safely. Look, I'm not being hostile to them nor do I want to see anyone get hurt. All I wanted to know is who they were or represented. Since you don't have an answer I'll leave it at that.
Well there are folks like my father in law there. But again why does anyone have to know? It isn’t a question that carries any necessity to it whatsoever and initially you loaded it with assumptions without knowing.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:26 am
by Farfromgeneva
Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:20 am
https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
Interesting analysis from former DoD staffer to Adm. Mike Mullen with emphasis on the corruption angle - Afghans Karzai (former head of state) and Abdullah (inside the Ghani government) likely in on the collapse and takeover. Also mentioned, the continuing free passes given to our alleged ally Pakistan over the years and how they should not really be considered one. Lastly, a look at our own tendency to look the other way and actively participate in corruption when certain Americans view these things as a way to quickly make a buck. Also makes one wonder if Karzai, Abdullah and others in the Afghan government past and present were in on the deal. If true, another big one apparently missed by the Biden administration, IC and Military.
"I was there. Afghans did not reject us. They looked to us as exemplars of democracy and the rule of law. They thought that’s what we stood for.
And what did we stand for? What flourished on our watch? Cronyism, rampant corruption, a Ponzi scheme disguised as a banking system, designed by U.S. finance specialists during the very years that other U.S. finance specialists were incubating the crash of 2008. A government system where billionaires get to write the rules."
Of course it would be fair to understand what this staffers experience with finance is because that sounds like someone who has a very specific issue with finance in our country.
“Finance specialists were incubating the crash” sure takes a lot of agency off everyone else involved. It also takes agency off him for his role in it by blaming the banking system created by this bad finance guys.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:38 am
by old salt
Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:06 am
Eloquent and impassioned speech from British MP/veteran Tom Tugendhat who specifically lowered the boom on Joe Biden's comments on Afghan military.
https://twitter.com/JamesAALongman/stat ... 5324484608
He gives everyone much to think about especially Uncle Joe. In apparent rush to get out, throwing our NATO allies under the bus as well as Afghan military is not only not a good look but likely not in our national interest going forward.
Wow ! Extraordinary. Things seldom go well for us when we fail to heed the advice of the Brits.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:41 am
by Kismet
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:26 am
Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:20 am
https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
Interesting analysis from former DoD staffer to Adm. Mike Mullen with emphasis on the corruption angle - Afghans Karzai (former head of state) and Abdullah (inside the Ghani government) likely in on the collapse and takeover. Also mentioned, the continuing free passes given to our alleged ally Pakistan over the years and how they should not really be considered one. Lastly, a look at our own tendency to look the other way and actively participate in corruption when certain Americans view these things as a way to quickly make a buck. Also makes one wonder if Karzai, Abdullah and others in the Afghan government past and present were in on the deal. If true, another big one apparently missed by the Biden administration, IC and Military.
"I was there. Afghans did not reject us. They looked to us as exemplars of democracy and the rule of law. They thought that’s what we stood for.
And what did we stand for? What flourished on our watch? Cronyism, rampant corruption, a Ponzi scheme disguised as a banking system, designed by U.S. finance specialists during the very years that other U.S. finance specialists were incubating the crash of 2008. A government system where billionaires get to write the rules."
Of course it would be fair to understand what this staffers experience with finance is because that sounds like someone who has a very specific issue with finance in our country.
“Finance specialists were incubating the crash” sure takes a lot of agency off everyone else involved. It also takes agency off him for his role in it by blaming the banking system created by this bad finance guys.
I think her point was that in terms of corruption, we should not exclude those interests in our country who exploit these situations and not just identify the Pakistanis and Afghans in the grifter universe. Elements in the USA also participate and also profit from such activities. Here is her background/experience which appears significant and longstanding both in and out of government
https://www.sarahchayes.org/about
Speaking of corruption - former Afghan President Ashraf Ghani turns up in UAE with $169 million USD in the bank - Surprise, surprise as Gomer Pyle would say.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:44 am
by Farfromgeneva
Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:41 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:26 am
Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:20 am
https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
Interesting analysis from former DoD staffer to Adm. Mike Mullen with emphasis on the corruption angle - Afghans Karzai (former head of state) and Abdullah (inside the Ghani government) likely in on the collapse and takeover. Also mentioned, the continuing free passes given to our alleged ally Pakistan over the years and how they should not really be considered one. Lastly, a look at our own tendency to look the other way and actively participate in corruption when certain Americans view these things as a way to quickly make a buck. Also makes one wonder if Karzai, Abdullah and others in the Afghan government past and present were in on the deal. If true, another big one apparently missed by the Biden administration, IC and Military.
"I was there. Afghans did not reject us. They looked to us as exemplars of democracy and the rule of law. They thought that’s what we stood for.
And what did we stand for? What flourished on our watch? Cronyism, rampant corruption, a Ponzi scheme disguised as a banking system, designed by U.S. finance specialists during the very years that other U.S. finance specialists were incubating the crash of 2008. A government system where billionaires get to write the rules."
Of course it would be fair to understand what this staffers experience with finance is because that sounds like someone who has a very specific issue with finance in our country.
“Finance specialists were incubating the crash” sure takes a lot of agency off everyone else involved. It also takes agency off him for his role in it by blaming the banking system created by this bad finance guys.
I think her point was that in terms of corruption, we should not exclude those interests in our country who exploit these situations and not just identify the Pakistanis and Afghans in the grifter universe. Elements in the USA also participate and also profit from such activities.
Sure I don’t doubt that. But to surmise that this is the reason it failed and easily conclude they didn’t reject us but it was our corruption that led to failure isn’t a clear straight line path either. As far as the relationship w Pakistan I don’t get it, I’d personally back India but that’s just me.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:45 am
by Farfromgeneva
Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:41 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:26 am
Kismet wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:20 am
https://www.sarahchayes.org/post/the-ides-of-august
Interesting analysis from former DoD staffer to Adm. Mike Mullen with emphasis on the corruption angle - Afghans Karzai (former head of state) and Abdullah (inside the Ghani government) likely in on the collapse and takeover. Also mentioned, the continuing free passes given to our alleged ally Pakistan over the years and how they should not really be considered one. Lastly, a look at our own tendency to look the other way and actively participate in corruption when certain Americans view these things as a way to quickly make a buck. Also makes one wonder if Karzai, Abdullah and others in the Afghan government past and present were in on the deal. If true, another big one apparently missed by the Biden administration, IC and Military.
"I was there. Afghans did not reject us. They looked to us as exemplars of democracy and the rule of law. They thought that’s what we stood for.
And what did we stand for? What flourished on our watch? Cronyism, rampant corruption, a Ponzi scheme disguised as a banking system, designed by U.S. finance specialists during the very years that other U.S. finance specialists were incubating the crash of 2008. A government system where billionaires get to write the rules."
Of course it would be fair to understand what this staffers experience with finance is because that sounds like someone who has a very specific issue with finance in our country.
“Finance specialists were incubating the crash” sure takes a lot of agency off everyone else involved. It also takes agency off him for his role in it by blaming the banking system created by this bad finance guys.
I think her point was that in terms of corruption, we should not exclude those interests in our country who exploit these situations and not just identify the Pakistanis and Afghans in the grifter universe. Elements in the USA also participate and also profit from such activities. Here is her background/experience which appears significant and longstanding both in and out of government
https://www.sarahchayes.org/about
BTW, I’ve been all over the east coast small village and large city and don’t know Paw Paw WV but it must be bucolic if she’s there I bet.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:51 am
by kramerica.inc
Afghan journalist confronts Pentagon: 'Everybody is upset, especially women':
https://news.yahoo.com/afghan-journalis ... 13878.html
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:53 am
by old salt
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:44 am
As far as the relationship w Pakistan I don’t get it, I’d personally back India but that’s just me.
Our relationship with Pakistan is based on 2 things :
-- proximity & access to Afghanistan
-- they have nucs, which we try to restrain.
We're closer to India, especially lately, who we now consider an ally.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:54 am
by Farfromgeneva
old salt wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:53 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:44 am
As far as the relationship w Pakistan I don’t get it, I’d personally back India but that’s just me.
Our relationship with Pakistan is based on 2 things :
-- proximity & access to Afghanistan
-- they have nucs, which we try to restrain.
We're closer to India, especially lately, who we now consider an ally.
I get it just don’t think the value is anywhere near what we think it is for playing footsie with a dictatorship that likes to lie to us
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:02 am
by old salt
Rep Seth Moulton is standing tall.
https://www.boston.com/news/politics/20 ... vacuation/
In a hearing on June 23, he asked SecDef Austin & Gen Milley why they had not yet started the SIV evacuations yet.
He's been pushing along the SIV program since 2014.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:05 am
by kramerica.inc
India is in peril.
Watch Pakistan and China.
Could get ugly for India.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:09 am
by old salt
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:05 am
India is in peril.
Watch Pakistan and China.
Could get ugly for India.
Afghanistan borders Iran, Pakistan & China, & could be the land bridge between them all.
https://www.adventuretourchina.com/driv ... tan-china/
The Karakoram Highway was completed in 1985 and opened to the public in 1985. It is officially known as the Sino-Pakistani Friendship Highway. It is a 1,300-kilometre highway connecting Hassan Abdul (several kilometres away from Islamabad, Pakistan) and Kashgar (the second largest city in Xinjiang, China). Once it was an important “Silk Road” route linking the Indian subcontinent with China, nowadays it is considered as the eighth wonder of the world because of its height and construction conditions, which makes it a masterpiece of architecture.
...it is the highest road in the world (the altitude of Khunjerab Pass is 4,800 meters), but also because it passes through three largest mountains ranges in the world: the Mount Himalayas, the Mount Karakoram and the Mount Hindu Kush ... pass through countless areas where there live a large number of ethnic and religious groups: from Punjabi people in central Pakistan to Ismayi in Hansa, Tajiks in Tashkurkan, and of course, Uighurs in Xinjiang.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:14 am
by Brooklyn
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:05 am
India is in peril.
Watch Pakistan and China.
Could get ugly for India.
If any of this is true, that's their problem, not ours. The only Westerners who want to start another war in that region are those who stand to make a profit from it.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:21 am
by kramerica.inc
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:14 am
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:05 am
India is in peril.
Watch Pakistan and China.
Could get ugly for India.
If any of this is true, that's their problem, not ours. The only Westerners who want to start another war in that region are those who stand to make a profit from it.
Good thing life only happens neatly inside the borders of a map.
Talk about a parochial worldview.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:21 am
by Farfromgeneva
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:14 am
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:05 am
India is in peril.
Watch Pakistan and China.
Could get ugly for India.
If any of this is true, that's their problem, not ours. The only Westerners who want to start another war in that region are those who stand to make a profit from it.
Is war the only option? How about shared resources or support in a plethora of other ways?
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:26 am
by Brooklyn
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:21 am
Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:14 am
kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:05 am
India is in peril.
Watch Pakistan and China.
Could get ugly for India.
If any of this is true, that's their problem, not ours. The only Westerners who want to start another war in that region are those who stand to make a profit from it.
Good thing life only happens neatly inside the borders of a map.
Talk about a parochial worldview.
Want another war? OK, when you march off to do your fighting there please be very sure to send us a picture postcard.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:29 am
by Brooklyn
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:21 am
Is war the only option? How about shared resources or support in a plethora of other ways?
Shared? The way things are going I'm sure the politicians (especially the Republicans) will eagerly approve of further wastage of our tax dollars in "nation building" overseas while refusing to finance stateside infrastructure rebuilding. Let's solve our own problems before we attempt to build up anyone else.