Trump's Russian Collusion

[Trinity]

Expect Administration lies at every turn. There has been little pain and zero shame. Civil servants under oath will bring the daylight. He’ll probably get charged with Abuse of Power, Corruption and Obstructing. This might actually knock the Roger Stone trial off Page 1.

[MDlaxfan76]

Any chance we can start a thread called “Fighting Words — the Murf and LandM Fight Thread,” and free up impeachment for, you know, impeachment?

+1
or at least stop with all the threats of violence. Really has no place on here.

Not to mention off topic.

The threat of violence are stunningly childish and show a lot about the poster.

It certainly does. Hey murph, take note!

We can all do a notch better, right Kram?
I know I sound pedantic at times, but the violent words out there in the ethos, the actual calls for "civil war", threats of violence, etc, are actually dangerous.

Let's do our little part to remind ourselves and each other to be a tad more civil, a tad more patient, a tad more kind.
I know I need to do so.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

is it really vacating an election if we are stuck with pence and the entire appointed cabinet?

[MDlaxfan76]

is it really vacating an election if we are stuck with pence and the entire appointed cabinet?

The tag line keeps changing. I agree, it's not "vacating an election".

It's a Constitutional remedy for "high crimes and misdemeanors", in this case pretty much exactly what the founders wrote about as the imperative for impeachment and why such capability was necessary to be included.

And the progression of power is also Constitutionally defined.
Need another election to change that progression.

[seacoaster]

is it really vacating an election if we are stuck with pence and the entire appointed cabinet?

The tag line keeps changing. I agree, it's not "vacating an election".

It's a Constitutional remedy for "high crimes and misdemeanors", in this case pretty much exactly what the founders wrote about as the imperative for impeachment and why such capability was necessary to be included.

And the progression of power is also Constitutionally defined.
Need another election to change that progression.

Agreed; it doesn't vacate an election; it's a process to remove a duly elected President (or appointed and confirmed, in the case of federal judges, I guess) from office for high crimes or misdemeanors, as that phrase is understood in the Constitution.

[MDlaxfan76]

Thinking solely politically, there's an interesting, ironic argument to be made that the GOP's best chances for retaining power in 2020 and on would be a swift impeachment and removal, and a strong "moderate" GOP ticket exuding competence and integrity. A Romney/Haley or Kasich/Haley for instance.

Particularly if the Dems do tack leftward.

But right now the GOP 'brand' is very damaged, and Trump brings that into high relief.
Pence would be an awful candidate.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

is it really vacating an election if we are stuck with pence and the entire appointed cabinet?

The tag line keeps changing. I agree, it's not "vacating an election".

It's a Constitutional remedy for "high crimes and misdemeanors", in this case pretty much exactly what the founders wrote about as the imperative for impeachment and why such capability was necessary to be included.

And the progression of power is also Constitutionally defined.
Need another election to change that progression.

yes, and i might even add the obvious- the bureaucracy then, wasnt nearly what it is now.

[Peter Brown]

Thinking solely politically, there's an interesting, ironic argument to be made that the GOP's best chances for retaining power in 2020 and on would be a swift impeachment and removal, and a strong "moderate" GOP ticket exuding competence and integrity. A Romney/Haley or Kasich/Haley for instance.

Particularly if the Dems do tack leftward.

But right now the GOP 'brand' is very damaged, and Trump brings that into high relief.
Pence would be an awful candidate.

We always see what we want to see, and I see a far different scenario than you regarding the parties (this could be because you were a Republican and now are not, and I was a Democrat and now am not). For instance, I believe the Democratic brand will suffer dramatically when Warren gets the nomination. A smug, pedantic, divisive, screechy Harvard law school professor...what's not to love!!! The attack ads write themselves.

As for a Trump replacement, this Party will never welcome a Kasich nor frankly a Romney ever again "as a national leader". Their lanes are very narrow as indecisive, non-conservative, kleptocrat-friendly. Haley on the other hand is widely beloved across every lane in the Party; underlying that cross-lane adoration is toughness, a toughness that both Kasich and Romney fail at miserably.

In my little circle, folks are anxious to see Haley step to the next level. Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.

I do agree that Pence is an awful candidate. I would be very reluctant to ever support him.

[MDlaxfan76]

Thinking solely politically, there's an interesting, ironic argument to be made that the GOP's best chances for retaining power in 2020 and on would be a swift impeachment and removal, and a strong "moderate" GOP ticket exuding competence and integrity. A Romney/Haley or Kasich/Haley for instance.

Particularly if the Dems do tack leftward.

But right now the GOP 'brand' is very damaged, and Trump brings that into high relief.
Pence would be an awful candidate.

We always see what we want to see, and I see a far different scenario than you regarding the parties (this could be because you were a Republican and now are not, and I was a Democrat and now am not). For instance, I believe the Democratic brand will suffer dramatically when Warren gets the nomination. A smug, pedantic, divisive, screechy Harvard law school professor...what's not to love!!! The attack ads write themselves.

As for a Trump replacement, this Party will never welcome a Kasich nor frankly a Romney ever again "as a national leader". Their lanes are very narrow as indecisive, non-conservative, kleptocrat-friendly. Haley on the other hand is widely beloved across every lane in the Party; underlying that cross-lane adoration is toughness, a toughness that both Kasich and Romney fail at miserably.

In my little circle, folks are anxious to see Haley step to the next level. Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.

I do agree that Pence is an awful candidate. I would be very reluctant to ever support him.

Yeah, I'm an actual Republican, indeed a small government conservative, international engagement, competence, etc, while you apparently are converted to this new Trumpist, wild spending, angry GOP-thing that I see as inevitably doomed by demographics.

I'm good with Haley, wouldn't mind her at the top of the ticket. And no, I don't think most Dems would "despise" her. She has never inspired that sort of response, much too moderate, much too positive.

But the problem with the Trumpist element of the GOP (which is not Haley's wing or base) is that it's what is so narrowly defined, overweighted heavily to less educated white, mostly rural and/or older white voters, overweighted older white male. These are declining demographics. It's resentful and angry and cares nothing about competence, only that their people are "fighting the Dems" who they actually do despise. That's what has the GOP in thrall right now.

Yes, the Dems could tack too far left, ala a George McGovern sort of mistake, and risk losing. But even that degree of leftward tacking is at least in line with longer term demographic changes favoring such leftward lean.

But this is the Impeachment thread...this discussion would be better on another thread.

[foreverlax]

Thinking solely politically, there's an interesting, ironic argument to be made that the GOP's best chances for retaining power in 2020 and on would be a swift impeachment and removal, and a strong "moderate" GOP ticket exuding competence and integrity. A Romney/Haley or Kasich/Haley for instance.

Particularly if the Dems do tack leftward.

But right now the GOP 'brand' is very damaged, and Trump brings that into high relief.
Pence would be an awful candidate.

We always see what we want to see, and I see a far different scenario than you regarding the parties (this could be because you were a Republican and now are not, and I was a Democrat and now am not). For instance, I believe the Democratic brand will suffer dramatically when Warren gets the nomination. A smug, pedantic, divisive, screechy Harvard law school professor...what's not to love!!! The attack ads write themselves. Agreed...Trump will change his nickname from Pocahontas to something with Socialism and the branding is complete.

As for a Trump replacement, this Party will never welcome a Kasich nor frankly a Romney ever again "as a national leader". Their lanes are very narrow as indecisive, non-conservative, kleptocrat-friendly.

There are no fiscal conservatives in DC...they lost that moniker 3 years ago.

Haley on the other hand is widely beloved across every lane in the Party; underlying that cross-lane adoration is toughness, a toughness that both Kasich and Romney fail at miserably.

Maybe, and yet she has never run for a national office....she or any other R will have to chose between Trumpism and something formally known as Republican.

In my little circle, folks are anxious to see Haley step to the next level. Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.
So Ds despise her because she is a women? That is ridiculous.


I do agree that Pence is an awful candidate. I would be very reluctant to ever support him.
Pence has had 3 years of giving Trumpism speeches...he is well prepared to carry on the mantle of his boss. I would vote for him over Trump.

[HooDat]

I believe that MD most likely had Haley in mind when he talked about a moderate condidate - but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

I am on the record as saying that the best thing that could happen to our country as a whole is:

1) Trump resigns.
2) Pence Pardons him
3) Pence does not run for office
4) GOP 2020 ticket is Haley / Crenshaw

[Peter Brown]

Thinking solely politically, there's an interesting, ironic argument to be made that the GOP's best chances for retaining power in 2020 and on would be a swift impeachment and removal, and a strong "moderate" GOP ticket exuding competence and integrity. A Romney/Haley or Kasich/Haley for instance.

Particularly if the Dems do tack leftward.

But right now the GOP 'brand' is very damaged, and Trump brings that into high relief.
Pence would be an awful candidate.

We always see what we want to see, and I see a far different scenario than you regarding the parties (this could be because you were a Republican and now are not, and I was a Democrat and now am not). For instance, I believe the Democratic brand will suffer dramatically when Warren gets the nomination. A smug, pedantic, divisive, screechy Harvard law school professor...what's not to love!!! The attack ads write themselves.

As for a Trump replacement, this Party will never welcome a Kasich nor frankly a Romney ever again "as a national leader". Their lanes are very narrow as indecisive, non-conservative, kleptocrat-friendly. Haley on the other hand is widely beloved across every lane in the Party; underlying that cross-lane adoration is toughness, a toughness that both Kasich and Romney fail at miserably.

In my little circle, folks are anxious to see Haley step to the next level. Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.

I do agree that Pence is an awful candidate. I would be very reluctant to ever support him.

Yeah, I'm an actual Republican, indeed a small government conservative, international engagement, competence, etc, while you apparently are converted to this new Trumpist, wild spending, angry GOP-thing that I see as inevitably doomed by demographics.

I'm good with Haley, wouldn't mind her at the top of the ticket. And no, I don't think most Dems would "despise" her. She has never inspired that sort of response, much too moderate, much too positive.

But the problem with the Trumpist element of the GOP (which is not Haley's wing or base) is that it's what is so narrowly defined, overweighted heavily to less educated white, mostly rural and/or older white voters, overweighted older white male. These are declining demographics. It's resentful and angry and cares nothing about competence, only that their people are "fighting the Dems" who they actually do despise. That's what has the GOP in thrall right now.

Yes, the Dems could tack too far left, ala a George McGovern sort of mistake, and risk losing. But even that degree of leftward tacking is at least in line with longer term demographic changes favoring such leftward lean.

But this is the Impeachment thread...this discussion would be better on another thread.

You need to travel. We operate in SC. Trust me, the local Dems are insanely envious/angry toward her. If she gets a national stage, this will only get worse.

https://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/ ... ley-090918

(btw, I am not a "Trumpist" whatever that means; I'm just not anti-Trump, which signals to many that I am a Trumpist I suppose? ; such is what Trump has done to folks! If I had my way, I'd cut federal spending 50%, convert all federal taxes to sales tax, go to a mixed asset currency, and pass into law a balanced budget; I'd forbid SALT taxes from being deductible, permanently, and so forth; where i am sympathetic to him is in anti-war, anti-imperialism, anti-prison).

[jhu72]

Thinking solely politically, there's an interesting, ironic argument to be made that the GOP's best chances for retaining power in 2020 and on would be a swift impeachment and removal, and a strong "moderate" GOP ticket exuding competence and integrity. A Romney/Haley or Kasich/Haley for instance.

Particularly if the Dems do tack leftward.

But right now the GOP 'brand' is very damaged, and Trump brings that into high relief.
Pence would be an awful candidate.

We always see what we want to see, and I see a far different scenario than you regarding the parties (this could be because you were a Republican and now are not, and I was a Democrat and now am not). For instance, I believe the Democratic brand will suffer dramatically when Warren gets the nomination. A smug, pedantic, divisive, screechy Harvard law school professor...what's not to love!!! The attack ads write themselves.

As for a Trump replacement, this Party will never welcome a Kasich nor frankly a Romney ever again "as a national leader". Their lanes are very narrow as indecisive, non-conservative, kleptocrat-friendly. Haley on the other hand is widely beloved across every lane in the Party; underlying that cross-lane adoration is toughness, a toughness that both Kasich and Romney fail at miserably.

In my little circle, folks are anxious to see Haley step to the next level. Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.

I do agree that Pence is an awful candidate. I would be very reluctant to ever support him.

Yeah, I'm an actual Republican, indeed a small government conservative, international engagement, competence, etc, while you apparently are converted to this new Trumpist, wild spending, angry GOP-thing that I see as inevitably doomed by demographics.

I'm good with Haley, wouldn't mind her at the top of the ticket. And no, I don't think most Dems would "despise" her. She has never inspired that sort of response, much too moderate, much too positive.

But the problem with the Trumpist element of the GOP (which is not Haley's wing or base) is that it's what is so narrowly defined, overweighted heavily to less educated white, mostly rural and/or older white voters, overweighted older white male. These are declining demographics. It's resentful and angry and cares nothing about competence, only that their people are "fighting the Dems" who they actually do despise. That's what has the GOP in thrall right now.

Yes, the Dems could tack too far left, ala a George McGovern sort of mistake, and risk losing. But even that degree of leftward tacking is at least in line with longer term demographic changes favoring such leftward lean.

But this is the Impeachment thread...this discussion would be better on another thread.

The only real problem with Haley is her support for Trump. That will not be easily forgiven. This in general is a problem for the republican party. I think it is going to be hard for any republican not to pick a side. Staying silent through this process will appear cowardly to both sides. Things aren't going to just pick up in the republican party as they were before Orange Duce.

[seacoaster]

“Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.”

Dumb. Sorry. Take it over to the future of the GOP thread. Back to impeachment here.

[Peter Brown]

“Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.”

Dumb. Sorry. Take it over to the future of the GOP thread. Back to impeachment here.

or read seacoaster's post to tell you what you need to know about Democrats.

[dislaxxic]

THE ELLIPSES AND THE RECORDINGS, PLURAL, OF JOE BIDEN

"The existing TELCON does not hide that Trump was discussing right wing propaganda with Zelensky. So there would be no reason to remove Trump’s reference to another piece of right wing propaganda. But the treatment of it suggests that the TELCON as released removed classified information (the document is titled “Unclassified,” suggesting that if the TELCON included the statements reflected in the ellipses, it’d be Classified). In which case, there may be other recordings, recordings that are classified and aren’t known to every frothy right winger spouting propaganda."

..

[a fan]

“Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.”

Oh, totally. Dems totally hate women. And kick dogs.

Any other brilliant insights about Dems? I've heard they hate flowers.

[MDlaxfan76]

Thinking solely politically, there's an interesting, ironic argument to be made that the GOP's best chances for retaining power in 2020 and on would be a swift impeachment and removal, and a strong "moderate" GOP ticket exuding competence and integrity. A Romney/Haley or Kasich/Haley for instance.

Particularly if the Dems do tack leftward.

But right now the GOP 'brand' is very damaged, and Trump brings that into high relief.
Pence would be an awful candidate.

We always see what we want to see, and I see a far different scenario than you regarding the parties (this could be because you were a Republican and now are not, and I was a Democrat and now am not). For instance, I believe the Democratic brand will suffer dramatically when Warren gets the nomination. A smug, pedantic, divisive, screechy Harvard law school professor...what's not to love!!! The attack ads write themselves.

As for a Trump replacement, this Party will never welcome a Kasich nor frankly a Romney ever again "as a national leader". Their lanes are very narrow as indecisive, non-conservative, kleptocrat-friendly. Haley on the other hand is widely beloved across every lane in the Party; underlying that cross-lane adoration is toughness, a toughness that both Kasich and Romney fail at miserably.

In my little circle, folks are anxious to see Haley step to the next level. Of course she will be despised by Democrats simply for the fact that she is a woman and a Republican...which should tell you more about Democrats than anything.

I do agree that Pence is an awful candidate. I would be very reluctant to ever support him.

Yeah, I'm an actual Republican, indeed a small government conservative, international engagement, competence, etc, while you apparently are converted to this new Trumpist, wild spending, angry GOP-thing that I see as inevitably doomed by demographics.

I'm good with Haley, wouldn't mind her at the top of the ticket. And no, I don't think most Dems would "despise" her. She has never inspired that sort of response, much too moderate, much too positive.

But the problem with the Trumpist element of the GOP (which is not Haley's wing or base) is that it's what is so narrowly defined, overweighted heavily to less educated white, mostly rural and/or older white voters, overweighted older white male. These are declining demographics. It's resentful and angry and cares nothing about competence, only that their people are "fighting the Dems" who they actually do despise. That's what has the GOP in thrall right now.

Yes, the Dems could tack too far left, ala a George McGovern sort of mistake, and risk losing. But even that degree of leftward tacking is at least in line with longer term demographic changes favoring such leftward lean.

But this is the Impeachment thread...this discussion would be better on another thread.

You need to travel. We operate in SC. Trust me, the local Dems are insanely envious/angry toward her. If she gets a national stage, this will only get worse.

https://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/ ... ley-090918

(btw, I am not a "Trumpist" whatever that means; I'm just not anti-Trump, which signals to many that I am a Trumpist I suppose? ; such is what Trump has done to folks! If I had my way, I'd cut federal spending 50%, convert all federal taxes to sales tax, go to a mixed asset currency, and pass into law a balanced budget; I'd forbid SALT taxes from being deductible, permanently, and so forth; where i am sympathetic to him is in anti-war, anti-imperialism, anti-prison).

hmmm, sure, her opponents will definitely try to defeat her, including some idiotic statements like that one (politics ain't bean bag), but Haley has a generally good reputation among moderate Dems, outside of the highly activist sorts, as being a moderate Republican. Her position on the Confederate flag, for instance, earned her, rightfully, some good points.

She'd definitely reduce the points of difference between moderate D's and R's.

Love to hear how you'd cut 50% of federal spending...

You may not be a Trumpist (perhaps just a Trump defender?)...I was intending to be describing the GOP in thrall to Trumpism and what that increasingly smaller demographic means for the GOP.

[RedFromMI]

Having lived in SC for the last quarter century, I can assure you that Nikki Haley is not exactly a moderate of any kind. She was to the right of most of the Rs in the general assembly here... She was more or less a protege of Mark Sanford...

She is quite polite in comparison to Trump, and what she did to get the legislature to remove the Confederate battle flag from atop its perch in front of the State House was to be commended.

However, she oversaw a government that exposed a majority of SSNs for SC citizens in a huge data breach of the SC Department of Revenue, and generally mismanaged several parts of government, including the rather too large prison system here.

[Peter Brown]

Love to hear how you'd cut 50% of federal spending...

Sure!

Our military is currently stationed in 170 Countries. For reference sake, there are only 192 countries in the United Nations.

Call me crazy, but I am thinking we could cut back on the military budget by about 50% and probably not see any issue other than many military folks would need to find work in the private sector (win win for everyone, especially those families who put their lives at risk on bs wars).

Second, I would means-test social security and immediately raise the retirement age to 72, with some pegged indicator of age demographics (as we age longer, then social security retirement benefits kick in later).

Third, I'd offer citizenship on two categories: one for people who can not pay, and one for people who can invest $20 million and more. Canada does it.

Fourth, I'd eliminate the following useless cabinets and all employees: Energy, Education (education is local anyway), Commerce (bs kleptocracy), Homeland Security, Department of Interior, Department of Agriculture, and EPA.

I'm getting close.... You said you are a small government republican; are you?