LaxPower Back-Up Stick

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

For those wondering, according to the IRS they have fewer FTE's today than in 2013.

https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce

And way less than in the 80's, 90's, 2000's...yet many more tax returns to process.

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/trends/v10/irsStaff.html

This has been a goal for the GOP for many years, shrinking the IRS.

Here's further analysis: https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-budg ... nce%202015.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

Couldn’t the behavior be also characterized as a gross failure of leadership? Not fighting the hard fights understaffed but taking shots where the job may allow hit isn’t the highest and beat use or optimizing the position of the taxing authority with respect to society?

Trump got away with it partly because they’ve been afraid of losing rather than because they didn’t feel it merited enforcement. Kind of like selection of cases of prosecutors where the win/loss record and agency issues (exist just like private sector).

Simplified code may not ever happen but it’s clearly the right answer to a lot of these issues. Every specialized rule favors one party over another explicitly and implicitly and it’s wrong.

I don’t think the position of a governmental entity is “we need more guns” because your never going to outrun the private sector folks with regulators-it will never happen. That’s throwing good money after bad. Another solution is a better path forward.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:51 am For those wondering, according to the IRS they have fewer FTE's today than in 2013.

https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce

And way less than in the 80's, 90's, 2000's...yet many more tax returns to process.

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/trends/v10/irsStaff.html

This has been a goal for the GOP for many years, shrinking the IRS.

Here's further analysis: https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-budg ... nce%202015.

Cleaning up the code is a one time expense. Adding to payroll at 150% of salary (fully loaded employee cost these days, used to be 1.25-1.4x) into perpetuity and creating defined benefit plans where the rest of the world is going a way from those borderline unquantifiable long term costs seems specious unless you can prove out an ROI that would make Cerberus blush.

There were two referendums on ballot here yesterday.

Change the debt limit for small-city school districts.

Extend the debt limit exemption for sewage facilities.

Both had 60% plus Yes votes.

So modern day answer to debt seems to be to up limits.

Paving the way to insolvency for federal, state and local governance.

Simple reform is:

First thing is all budgets federal state and local should be reduced across the board 10% a year for 5 years. Straight across the board reduction. All in charge will have to live with their 10% reduced line item. Get rid of waste, fat and corruption by closing the bank. Legislators will no longer have the pork and entitlements for their constituents as in past. Money will have to be doled out wisely as opposed to being given away now.

Budget line item of 100 would be reduced to: 90, 81, 72.9, 65.61 and 59.05

Second thing is tossing the current Internal Revenue Code. Simple tax structure with no benefits or credits except for as I mention:

Individuals tax rate:

Cut all preferential capital gains rates, disallow any deductions for ordinary or capital losses. No accelerated depreciation permitted just straight line. Eliminate all tax credits. No limitations on current itemized deductions and all interest paid is allowable deduction. Amounts paid for dependent education are allowable itemized deductions.

5% taxable income as is with from 1 to $100,000

10% $100,001 to $250,000 taxable income

15% $250,001 to $500,000 taxable income

17% $500,001 to 750,000 taxable income

18% $750,001 to $999,999 taxable income

19% 1,000,000 and greater taxable income

All other corporations and entities that are not pass through:

Tax on net income per books which is same as financial statements issued to public as adjusted for depreciation.

Allow a 5% Investment tax credit for new asset purchases and new employee hires salaries/wages to offset income tax!

Minimum tax of .0000001 of gross revenues $1,000 whichever is greater when losses occur, and eliminate all current tax credits and accelerated depreciation

10% on 1 - 500,000

15% on 500,001 to 10,000,000

19% on 10,000,001 and over

NOW EVERYONE PAYS!

We already have universal healthcare in Medicare and Medicaid. Allow open enrolment into Medicare for all ages with reasonable monthly rate and ability to offset income tax refund against following year’s premiums. Audit the payments to providers and make mandatory sentencing of 24 months with no probation for all convicted of fraud. For those who whistle blow and are party to fraud 6-month mandatory sentence with no probation.
And lastly, we need integrity restored to public and private life.

As Teddy Roosevelt (of all people) said in his 4th of July speech to celebrate Huntington, LI, NY’s 250 anniversary:

“Exactly. Now so it is in the ordinary workaday tasks of citizenship at the present day. If the man is not decent, in the first place, then he is not merely useless to the community but a menace to it. In time of war, if the man did not have in him the power of loyalty to the flag, loyalty to the nation, loyalty to his regiment, the more dangerous he was. He had to have that quality first of all.
In civil life we need decency, honesty and the spirit that makes the man a good husband, a good father, a good neighbor and a good man to work alongside of or to deal with. That makes a man, consequently, who does his duty by the State. The worst crime against this nation which can be committed by any man is the crime of dishonesty, whether in public life, or whether in private life, and we are not to be excused as a people if we ever condone such dishonesty, no matter what other qualities it may be associated with.”

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:14 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:51 am For those wondering, according to the IRS they have fewer FTE's today than in 2013.

https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce

And way less than in the 80's, 90's, 2000's...yet many more tax returns to process.

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/trends/v10/irsStaff.html

This has been a goal for the GOP for many years, shrinking the IRS.

Here's further analysis: https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-budg ... nce%202015.

Cleaning up the code is a one time expense. Adding to payroll at 150% of salary (fully loaded employee cost these days, used to be 1.25-1.4x) into perpetuity and creating defined benefit plans where the rest of the world is going a way from those borderline unquantifiable long term costs seems specious unless you can prove out an ROI that would make Cerberus blush.

Actually, O&M costs for software are never ending. And, the older it gets, the more expensive that maintenance gets. I always thought throwing it away after a few years made more sense. All code is loaded with technical debt that no one wants to go back and fix. So just throw it away and move on.

And large federal systems are their own joy.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:09 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

Couldn’t the behavior be also characterized as a gross failure of leadership? Not fighting the hard fights understaffed but taking shots where the job may allow hit isn’t the highest and beat use or optimizing the position of the taxing authority with respect to society?

Trump got away with it partly because they’ve been afraid of losing rather than because they didn’t feel it merited enforcement. Kind of like selection of cases of prosecutors where the win/loss record and agency issues (exist just like private sector).

Simplified code may not ever happen but it’s clearly the right answer to a lot of these issues. Every specialized rule favors one party over another explicitly and implicitly and it’s wrong.

I don’t think the position of a governmental entity is “we need more guns” because your never going to outrun the private sector folks with regulators-it will never happen. That’s throwing good money after bad. Another solution is a better path forward.

A simpler system might well be more efficient but I’m not so sure that it would actually reduce scofflaws. My hunch is that they would just find other ways to avoid or misreport.

Fortunately, in a society like ours in which respect for the rule of law is sound and in which citizens have a basic trust that they have a voice, corruption is low. By comparative standards.

I know, I know, everyone hates the government, paying taxes, hates regulations, and don’t trust the politicians, etc etc. And indeed that’s why we need to push back on the naysayers, the nattering nabobs of negativity and especially the political and media grifters who have a self interest in encouraging nihilism. The reality is that we have a damn fine system and we should defend it!

The good news is that while there is corruption to be found, it’s not overwhelming. And if resources are focused on punishing cheats, it discourages others tempted but not to the extent that they want the risk.

The problem is not all super rich, it’s a limited subset… but you can’t be pulling a butter knife in a knife fight.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:10 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:14 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:51 am For those wondering, according to the IRS they have fewer FTE's today than in 2013.

https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce

And way less than in the 80's, 90's, 2000's...yet many more tax returns to process.

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/trends/v10/irsStaff.html

This has been a goal for the GOP for many years, shrinking the IRS.

Here's further analysis: https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-budg ... nce%202015.

Cleaning up the code is a one time expense. Adding to payroll at 150% of salary (fully loaded employee cost these days, used to be 1.25-1.4x) into perpetuity and creating defined benefit plans where the rest of the world is going a way from those borderline unquantifiable long term costs seems specious unless you can prove out an ROI that would make Cerberus blush.

Actually, O&M costs for software are never ending. And, the older it gets, the more expensive that maintenance gets. I always thought throwing it away after a few years made more sense. All code is loaded with technical debt that no one wants to go back and fix. So just throw it away and move on.

And large federal systems are their own joy.

Yup.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:10 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:14 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:51 am For those wondering, according to the IRS they have fewer FTE's today than in 2013.

https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce

And way less than in the 80's, 90's, 2000's...yet many more tax returns to process.

https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/trends/v10/irsStaff.html

This has been a goal for the GOP for many years, shrinking the IRS.

Here's further analysis: https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-budg ... nce%202015.

Cleaning up the code is a one time expense. Adding to payroll at 150% of salary (fully loaded employee cost these days, used to be 1.25-1.4x) into perpetuity and creating defined benefit plans where the rest of the world is going a way from those borderline unquantifiable long term costs seems specious unless you can prove out an ROI that would make Cerberus blush.

Actually, O&M costs for software are never ending. And, the older it gets, the more expensive that maintenance gets. I always thought throwing it away after a few years made more sense. All code is loaded with technical debt that no one wants to go back and fix. So just throw it away and move on.

And large federal systems are their own joy.

Sorry I meant tax code not software code but that wasn’t clear. A good point about software costs but technology is supposed to be about efficiency not the opposite and shouldn’t increase ongoing operating expenses unless purchasing and implementation are not being executed appropriately.

Your point on sunk costs is an excellent one as well.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:31 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:09 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

Couldn’t the behavior be also characterized as a gross failure of leadership? Not fighting the hard fights understaffed but taking shots where the job may allow hit isn’t the highest and beat use or optimizing the position of the taxing authority with respect to society?

Trump got away with it partly because they’ve been afraid of losing rather than because they didn’t feel it merited enforcement. Kind of like selection of cases of prosecutors where the win/loss record and agency issues (exist just like private sector).

Simplified code may not ever happen but it’s clearly the right answer to a lot of these issues. Every specialized rule favors one party over another explicitly and implicitly and it’s wrong.

I don’t think the position of a governmental entity is “we need more guns” because your never going to outrun the private sector folks with regulators-it will never happen. That’s throwing good money after bad. Another solution is a better path forward.

A simpler system might well be more efficient but I’m not so sure that it would actually reduce scofflaws. My hunch is that they would just find other ways to avoid or misreport.

Fortunately, in a society like ours in which respect for the rule of law is sound and in which citizens have a basic trust that they have a voice, corruption is low. By comparative standards.

I know, I know, everyone hates the government, paying taxes, hates regulations, and don’t trust the politicians, etc etc. And indeed that’s why we need to push back on the naysayers, the nattering nabobs of negativity and especially the political and media grifters who have a self interest in encouraging nihilism. The reality is that we have a damn fine system and we should defend it!

The good news is that while there is corruption to be found, it’s not overwhelming. And if resources are focused on punishing cheats, it discourages others tempted but not to the extent that they want the risk.

The problem is not all super rich, it’s a limited subset… but you can’t be pulling a butter knife in a knife fight.

My issue is the arbitrage between the spirit of law and the explicit codified language. The more words, exceptions and rules added (and lawyers are clearly the best for this!) the more opportunity to violate the spirit of the rule. So it’s not hating paying taxes or govt it’s what I know to end true about rules based systems and regulatory capture. Less, more transparent and simple oversight and operations afforded less opportunity for smarter people to f**k around, less external expenses like all the unnecessary corporate tax accountants and attorneys and bankers. Think about this. I spent a few hours last year into the beginning of this year with a guy running a private placement life insurance business out of Texas. He’s used to talking to rich ranchers so he talked down to me the first handful of times being a tax attorney banker from
Goldman in a prior life but figured out how to use me eventually. Anyways s I’m learning about this tax arb product all I’m thinking about from my view is how to prolongate windows for existing private credit and alternatives books that have issues and a 10yr LP fund Au setting where you could get a mark on one side but not force the mark onto Lps and lower basis and buy time. That’s not natural but I’m not wrong either. This guy and I should be doing something more productive but when you’ve got overly specific highly codified language it opens up the floodgates to smart people arbitraging the system. It’s got to be cleaner and simpler or this is lost productivity on the “real economy”

No argument from me on simpler and more transparent, but I think we're not likely to see radical changes in our lifetimes, so dealing with the existing realities appears to be prudent.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:07 pm No argument from me on simpler and more transparent, but I think we're not likely to see radical changes in our lifetimes, so dealing with the existing realities appears to be prudent.

You're probably correct but then it becomes the equivalent of Isreal/Palestine and a 1,000yr war solving nothing.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:13 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:07 pm No argument from me on simpler and more transparent, but I think we're not likely to see radical changes in our lifetimes, so dealing with the existing realities appears to be prudent.

You're probably correct but then it becomes the equivalent of Isreal/Palestine and a 1,000yr war solving nothing.

Perhaps, but less existential.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:43 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:37 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:43 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:29 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:37 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:43 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

What kind of cheese goes with IRS incompetence?? I'm guessing a nice stinky limberger with a glass of ripple would go nicely. FTR since your clueless right now a Fan is also a big advocate of a flat tax. What bothers you so much about a flat tax?? Does the fair part upset your apple cart?? FTR MD your confusing a rant by myself with one of your mindless diatribes about WNC. I guess your rants have merit and mine don't. Got it kiddo? I really hope some day the IRS crawls up your ass and resides there for an extended period of time. Couldn't happen to a more deserving person. Maybe if the IRS sends you a letter they will remember to put your house # on it.
Amazing that Americans know and understand the IRS is not user friendly to the people they are suppose to serve. I know I'm not as smart and refined as you. How come no one from either party does a god damn thing to address the shortcomings ingrained in the IRS and their insensitivity to the American people? The answer is easy enough for even a dumb guy like me. The IRS doesn't give 2 figs about the American people. If they did they would answer their effing phones in a reasonable amount of time. Why bother if they don't care?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:29 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:37 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:43 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:26 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 11:13 am

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:56 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:59 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:39 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:22 am

Seacoaster(1) wrote: ↑Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:49 am The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

The devil was also in the details when it came to putting a man on the moon. How did that work out?? Are you saying a flat tax can't be done??

The tax code will what it wants when it wants. All you whiners about the “tax code” are delusional that you think you can make an impact on it.

I think I’ve got that right…

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:33 am The tax code will what it wants when it wants. All you whiners about the “tax code” are delusional that you think you can make an impact on it.

I think I’ve got that right…

Correction, the tax code will be what the government wants and when they want it. We just had an election where every candidate from either party bragged about their intention to cut taxes on the middle class. Now that the elections are over and done all those promises to cut taxes can be swiftly chit canned. The agenda of the newly elected will be how much to raise their pay.

We don’t need tax cuts right now. Didn’t need them in 2017. Cleanup is one thing but as discussed that’s as likely to happen as time to roll back on us. Rationalizing expenditures is the only path forward since nobody is willing to do the hard work.