All Things Russia & Ukraine

[a fan]

Not escalating tensions, is in both countries interests, particularly with a new Admin coming into office.

So you say. Flynn had no legal power at that point. Seems a phone call to Obama would have been in order, rather than lying that the meeting even took place. Flynn worked in Russia's interest in lying about the meeting. All Flynn had to do was wait, what---two months? And it would have 100% legal, and 100% literally in US's interests. He didn't do that, and you're still giving him a pass for it.

When are we going to come back to reality & deal with real world issues ?

Ask Trump. At what point are you going to hold Trump accountable for his office? How many more years need to roll by?

Muellers done. So there goes your excuse on that point. I'm sure Trump will fix everything in a matter of weeks. And no matter what he does or doesn't do, you'll either tell me it's a masterstroke of foreign policy work, or you'll blame Rachel Maddow for Trump not getting something done.

I'll check back in two years and see if I'm right.

[old salt]

Not escalating tensions, is in both countries interests, particularly with a new Admin coming into office.

So you say. Flynn had no legal power at that point. Seems a phone call to Obama would have been in order, rather than lying that the meeting even took place. Flynn worked in Russia's interest in lying about the meeting. All Flynn had to do was wait, what---two months? And it would have 100% legal, and 100% literally in US's interests. He didn't do that, and you're still giving him a pass for it.
Russia would have reacted before Trump took office.

When are we going to come back to reality & deal with real world issues ?

Ask Trump. At what point are you going to hold Trump accountable for his office? How many more years need to roll by?
Too late. The damage is done. He'll never be able to negotiate with Russia. The Deep State Establishment won.

Muellers done. So there goes your excuse on that point. I'm sure Trump will fix everything in a matter of weeks. And no matter what he does or doesn't do, you'll either tell me it's a masterstroke of foreign policy work, or you'll blame Rachel Maddow for Trump not getting something done.
...& look at the hysterical response to Trump's most recent phone caii.
I'll check back in two years and see if I'm right.
Too late. The sore losers got the Cold War they wanted. There's been so many anti-Russia political markers put down, there's no possibility of detente, so long as Putin is in power -- especially with Trump in office. What potential future US President can you visualize being able to do a reset ? Putin has made too many advances since he returned to the Presidency in 2012, to give them up. We had our chance & blew ut. It's going to be a long haul. Buy BA & LMT on their dips.

[a fan]

There it is. Nothing is Trump's fault.

Odd, Trump called Putin just fine. And yet here you are claiming the opposite. Trump can do what he likes. He's the President. No one can stop him from doing anything he wishes overseas, and it's just laughable to claim the Donald Freaking Trump is being cowed by anyone, let alone the libs. His supporters support anything he does. They have from day one. And yet you're claiming he "can't" do something.

Just stop it. You're being absurd..

FoxNation and easily 45% of voters freaked out any time Obama tried to do anything. You never ONCE said "gee whiz willikers, Obama just can't do his job with all these doubters".

[old salt]

There it is. Nothing is Trump's fault.

Odd, Trump called Putin just fine. And yet here you are claiming the opposite. Trump can do what he likes. He's the President. No one can stop him from doing anything he wishes overseas, and it's just laughable to claim the Donald Freaking Trump is being cowed by anyone, let alone the libs. His supporters support anything he does. They have from day one. And yet you're claiming he "can't" do something.

Just stop it. You're being absurd..

FoxNation and easily 45% of voters freaked out any time Obama tried to do anything. You never ONCE said "gee whiz willikers, Obama just can't do his job with all these doubters".

Get real. Trump never had a chance. The Deep State Establishment made sure of it.

Other than Rand Paul & Tulsi Gabbard, who in Congress is going to support any outreach to Russia ?
After Flynn departed, Trump couldn't even assemble a staff that would go along with him.
Russia is still politically radioactive & now will always be so for Trump.
The window of opportunity has closed, ...& is nailed shut.

[Typical Lax Dad]

There it is. Nothing is Trump's fault.

Odd, Trump called Putin just fine. And yet here you are claiming the opposite. Trump can do what he likes. He's the President. No one can stop him from doing anything he wishes overseas, and it's just laughable to claim the Donald Freaking Trump is being cowed by anyone, let alone the libs. His supporters support anything he does. They have from day one. And yet you're claiming he "can't" do something.

Just stop it. You're being absurd..

FoxNation and easily 45% of voters freaked out any time Obama tried to do anything. You never ONCE said "gee whiz willikers, Obama just can't do his job with all these doubters".

Get real. Trump never had a chance. The Deep State Establishment made sure of it.

Other than Rand Paul & Tulsi Gabbard, who in Congress is going to support any outreach to Russia ?
After Flynn departed, Trump couldn't even assemble a staff that would go along with him.
Russia is still politically radioactive & now will always be so for Trump.
The window of opportunity has closed, ...& is nailed shut.

Good

[a fan]

Get real. Trump never had a chance. The Deep State Establishment made sure of it.

Other than Rand Paul & Tulsi Gabbard, who in Congress is going to support any outreach to Russia ?

Right. Because Trump needs Congressional support overseas. He get support when he called Kim "rocket man". Nope. He did it anyway. Trump must have magic beans you're not aware of, or something.

The Deep State, as you put it, could give two **its about Russia. You're making zero sense.

But let's follow your thinking here. Now the Deep State has an added feature, eh? So not only were they trying to take down Trump from the inside....they were trying to keep Trump from working with Russia. They're anti-Putin. These are the same Federal workers, by the way, who were on board when Hillary tried her stupid "reset" button gimmick. Or had you forgotten that detail when making up this nonsense?

Strange. How come the Deep State didn't try and take Hillary out if she was actively, and publicly trying to work with Putin?


You're running out of tinfoil......

[dislaxxic]

Skidmark brought this on himself. 100%. Deep State is a Trumpist's deadend loser's excuse.

..

[old salt]

Get real. Trump never had a chance. The Deep State Establishment made sure of it.

Other than Rand Paul & Tulsi Gabbard, who in Congress is going to support any outreach to Russia ?

Right. Because Trump needs Congressional support overseas. He get support when he called Kim "rocket man". Nope. He did it anyway. Trump must have magic beans you're not aware of, or something.

The Deep State, as you put it, could give two **its about Russia. You're making zero sense.
Right -- think tankers & former career DoD, IC, & foreign policy "professionals" of both parties, are heavily invested in opposing Russia. Who spoke out in support of Trump's vow for outreach during the campaign ?

But let's follow your thinking here. Now the Deep State has an added feature, eh? So not only were they trying to take down Trump from the inside....they were trying to keep Trump from working with Russia. They're anti-Putin. These are the same Federal workers, by the way, who were on board when Hillary tried her stupid "reset" button gimmick. Or had you forgotten that detail when making up this nonsense?
Hillary never tried to work with Putin. Medvedev was Pres when she flubbed the reset.

Strange. How come the Deep State didn't try and take Hillary out if she was actively, and publicly trying to work with Putin?
She never tried to work with Putin. Medvedev was Pres during her term as Sec of State. She was a major irritant to Putin in both his terms, which is why he came after her.

You're running out of tinfoil......You really know how to dumb down a discussion.

[dislaxxic]

You're running out of tinfoil......You really know how to dumb down a discussion.

Sadly, that seems to be eminently necessary under the daily circumstances of this VERY weird and unnatural Trump Sycophancy Syndrome...

..

[a fan]

I'm dumbing down the discussion? You're the one who is working furiously to equate Russia with the Soviet Union. They're not the same. Money matters. So while Trump keeps poking the nose of an actual threat---China, you sit back and say nothing. There's clear risk of a Cold War with China....and you say nothing.

And yet with Russia, the sky is falling, and we have to let Putin mess with us, and bend the knee when he does it. It's absurd.

I can't think of a time where the media was blamed for foreign policy failures. No matter how much you spin or fall all over yourself to blame someone else, Trump has to take one less weekend golfing, and do his job with Russia. Whatever it is you seem to think Trump needs to do.

And this, of course, assumes he has to do anything in the first place. My opinion with both regimes (imagine that? Consistency) is that Obama and Trump have to hold the line with sanctions for getting caught messing with us. And that's it. Move on to far bigger fish to fry. Like China. Or a nuclear Iran. Or Brexit.

To paraphrase TLD, if Rachel Maddow (snicker) is keeping Trump from making whatever super-perfect deal with Russia you think Trump needs to make? Great. He's a fly. You don't even need to acknowledge him. Bush didn't. The world kept spinning just fine.

[a fan]

Here's your Cold War with China tweet, old salt. Spin away....

For 10 months, China has been paying Tariffs to the USA of 25% on 50 Billion Dollars of High Tech, and 10% on 200 Billion Dollars of other goods. These payments are partially responsible for our great economic results. The 10% will go up to 25% on Friday. 325 Billions Dollars....

Blatant lie, obviously. China doesn't pay one cent of this tariff. The US importer does....and passes the cost along to the US consumer.

But who cares? We learned long ago that Trump fans can't add and subtract.

[old salt]

I'm dumbing down the discussion? You're the one who is working furiously to equate Russia with the Soviet Union. They're not the same. Money matters. So while Trump keeps poking the nose of an actual threat---China, you sit back and say nothing. There's clear risk of a Cold War with China....and you say nothing. .. I say nothing ? ...check the China thread. That's why I don't want a Cold War with both China & Russia as allies. I want to divide them, rather than pushing them together, as we are now.

And yet with Russia, the sky is falling, and we have to let Putin mess with us, and bend the knee when he does it. It's absurd.
Who's bending the knee ? Our actions are just the opposite.You must be responding to the media narrative (which you say does not matter).

I can't think of a time where the media was blamed for foreign policy failures. No matter how much you spin or fall all over yourself to blame someone else, Trump has to take one less weekend golfing, and do his job with Russia. Whatever it is you seem to think Trump needs to do.
Not a failure -- an inability to act. Not just the media. The entire national security & foreign policy establishment, in Congress, in & out of govt.

And this, of course, assumes he has to do anything in the first place. My opinion with both regimes (imagine that? Consistency) is that Obama and Trump have to hold the line with sanctions for getting caught messing with us. And that's it. Move on to far bigger fish to fry. Like China. Or a nuclear Iran. Like diverting a transiting carrier strike group into the Persian Gulf. Or Brexit. So you can tell him to butt out.

To paraphrase TLD, if Rachel Maddow (snicker) is keeping Trump from making whatever super-perfect deal with Russia you think Trump needs to make? Great. He's a fly. You don't even need to acknowledge him. Bush didn't. The world kept spinning just fine.
During the Bush terms, new guy Putin acted more like an ally than an adversary, until he moved on Georgia at the end of Bush's second term. We couldn't have operated in Afghanistan without Russia's help. Putin was reacting to western overtures to Georgia & Ukraine for NATO & EU membership, after NATO's second expansion, right up to Russia's borders.

[a fan]

Who's bending the knee ? Our actions are just the opposite.You must be responding to the media narrative (which you say does not matter).

Sigh. YOU are saying we should bend the knee because you're afraid of a Cold War. You think we should follow Germany's lead, drop sanctions, and act like Putin isn't still messing with us. I realize that we're not doing that now. YOU are telling us that Trump would change course, and avoid a Cold War only if mean Rachel Maddow would let him.

Not just the media. The entire national security & foreign policy establishment, in Congress, in & out of govt.

You mean the same folks who told Obama not to pull out of Iraq? Those people? Strange, Obama ignored them just fine. He have magic beans? Nope. Turns out, he was President, and can do whatever he wishes overseas, and no one can stop him.

Nothing is keeping Trump from doing anything he wishes with Putin. Hell, he just dropped a guy off of the sanctions list, and he's building a freaking aluminum factory in McConnell's home state!! Anyone saying anything about this obvious grift? Nope. It's full steam ahead. So just stop. Trump can do whatever he wishes. Ask him. He'll tell you as much.

During the Bush terms, new guy Putin acted more like an ally than an adversary, until he moved on Georgia at the end of Bush's second term. We couldn't have operated in Afghanistan without Russia's help. Putin was reacting to western overtures to Georgia & Ukraine for NATO & EU membership, after NATO's second expansion, right up to Russia's borders.

Right. Both you and the rest of the Cold War wonks think that Russia "owns" Georgia and Ukraine, and that they aren't allowed to do as they please. And if they do? Well, then of course Putin is correct in reacting the way he does, and the problem is the EU is "wrong" for inviting a sovereign nation to joint. The 80's called. It wants its world order back....is that it?

Sorry, I disagree with you.

[old salt]

Who's bending the knee ? Our actions are just the opposite.You must be responding to the media narrative (which you say does not matter).

Sigh. YOU are saying we should bend the knee because you're afraid of a Cold War. You think we should follow Germany's lead, drop sanctions, and act like Putin isn't still messing with us. I realize that we're not doing that now. YOU are telling us that Trump would change course, and avoid a Cold War only if mean Rachel Maddow would let him. Wrong. I'm saying we should engage, from a position of strength. We can't even engage. Our sanctions are a domestic feel good political stunt. Even our allies are getting fed up with them.

Not just the media. The entire national security & foreign policy establishment, in Congress, in & out of govt.

You mean the same folks who told Obama not to pull out of Iraq? Those people? Strange, Obama ignored them just fine. He have magic beans? Nope. Turns out, he was President, and can do whatever he wishes overseas, and no one can stop him.
Just fine ? You mean the ISIS JV ? Most warned him not to pull out & predicted we'd have to go back.

Nothing is keeping Trump from doing anything he wishes with Putin. Hell, he just dropped a guy off of the sanctions list, and he's building a freaking aluminum factory in McConnell's home state!! Anyone saying anything about this obvious grift? Yes. Our NATO allies who are grateful we had a small respite from mindless sanctions. Nope. It's full steam ahead. So just stop. Trump can do whatever he wishes. Ask him. He'll tell you as much. Look what happened to Obama's Iran deal because he didn't have Congressional approval.
I'm talking about engaging on serious stuff (like we did in the '90's), like renewing, updating & expanding arms control treaties. Like de-escalating & demilitarizing NATO's E border -- things that would be in the mutual interest of Russia, US & NATO allies. Look how little Russia is spending to stick their thumb in our eye in Venezuela, N Korea, Syria, & Turkey, ...& how helpful they could be.

During the Bush terms, new guy Putin acted more like an ally than an adversary, until he moved on Georgia at the end of Bush's second term. We couldn't have operated in Afghanistan without Russia's help. Putin was reacting to western overtures to Georgia & Ukraine for NATO & EU membership, after NATO's second expansion, right up to Russia's borders.

Right. Both you and the rest of the Cold War wonks think that Russia "owns" Georgia and Ukraine, and that they aren't allowed to do as they please. And if they do? Well, then of course Putin is correct in reacting the way he does, and the problem is the EU is "wrong" for inviting a sovereign nation to joint. The 80's called. It wants its world order back....is that it?
Those fake start up countries can do as they please, but that should not obligate us to bear the consequences or defend their borders.
3 weeks after NATO's first expansion, we began bombing Russia's Serbian allies.

Sorry, I disagree with you. ...& then you b!tch about DoD spending & when we take casualties.

[OCanada]

Um it’s a little disingenuous to mention Obama in that context considering Mitch said he would not let him accomplish anything and wanted him to be a one term president. He couldn’t get ratification because of Republican intransigence so he did what he could. Nailing was DAF

[a fan]

Wrong. I'm saying we should engage, from a position of strength. We can't even engage. Our sanctions are a domestic feel good political stunt. Even our allies are getting fed up with them.

A convoluted way of saying: you think we should drop the sanctions, ignore what Putin has done to us, and work with him.

Just fine ? You mean the ISIS JV ? Most warned him not to pull out & predicted we'd have to go back.

ISIS was the JV. Real smart claiming land and saying "go ahead and wipe us out. We're all right here". Brilliant.

My point is you're saying Trump can't act with Putin because others won't like it. Buffalo Bagels. No one liked Obama pulling out of Iraq, and he did it anyway. Stop changing the subject with this point. No one is keeping Trump from doing anything he wants. You're whining and blaming others because you want to throw a temper tantrum over the Russia investigation. Trump can, and does, whatever he wishes. I have no idea who you think you're convincing that this is not the case.

Look what happened to Obama's Iran deal because he didn't have Congressional approval.

Trump doesn't have Congressional approval regarding Iran, either. Slip your mind?

You blame Obama. I blame the Senate. The rest of our allies signed the d*mn deal, and you and the FoxNation morons are acting like Obama went rogue to sign the deal. Do your job. The Senate would rather do nothing. Rinse. Repeat.

I'm talking about engaging on serious stuff (like we did in the '90's), like renewing, updating & expanding arms control treaties. Like de-escalating & demilitarizing NATO's E border -- things that would be in the mutual interest of Russia, US & NATO allies. Look how little Russia is spending to stick their thumb in our eye in Venezuela, N Korea, Syria, & Turkey, ...& how helpful they could be.[/color]That's your opinion.

Ten minutes ago, you told me Trump was withdrawing from the world. Now you're listing a bunch of stuff that's business as usual, and giving me the Russia nonsense as the reason that Trump can't conduct our inverventionist business as usual. Pick a lane.

hose fake start up countries can do as they please, but that should not obligate us to bear the consequences or defend their borders.
.

It hasn't. We're not defending the Ukraine or any other non-NATO country.

..& then you b!tch about DoD spending & when we take casualties. [/color]
You're advocating we intervene in Venezuela, Syria, N Korea, and Turkey. Not me.

If we stay out of it? We save both money and casualties. So I have no clue what you're talking about here.

[old salt]

Wrong. I'm saying we should engage, from a position of strength. We can't even engage. Our sanctions are a domestic feel good political stunt. Even our allies are getting fed up with them.

A convoluted way of saying: you think we should drop the sanctions, ignore what Putin has done to us, and work with him.

Just fine ? You mean the ISIS JV ? Most warned him not to pull out & predicted we'd have to go back.

ISIS was the JV. Real smart claiming land and saying "go ahead and wipe us out. We're all right here". Brilliant.

My point is you're saying Trump can't act with Putin because others won't like it. Buffalo Bagels. No one liked Obama pulling out of Iraq, and he did it anyway. Stop changing the subject with this point. No one is keeping Trump from doing anything he wants. You're whining and blaming others because you want to throw a temper tantrum over the Russia investigation. Trump can, and does, whatever he wishes. I have no idea who you think you're convincing that this is not the case.

Look what happened to Obama's Iran deal because he didn't have Congressional approval.

Trump doesn't have Congressional approval regarding Iran, either. Slip your mind?

You blame Obama. I blame the Senate. The rest of our allies signed the d*mn deal, and you and the FoxNation morons are acting like Obama went rogue to sign the deal. Do your job. The Senate would rather do nothing. Rinse. Repeat.

I'm talking about engaging on serious stuff (like we did in the '90's), like renewing, updating & expanding arms control treaties. Like de-escalating & demilitarizing NATO's E border -- things that would be in the mutual interest of Russia, US & NATO allies. Look how little Russia is spending to stick their thumb in our eye in Venezuela, N Korea, Syria, & Turkey, ...& how helpful they could be.[/color]That's your opinion.

Ten minutes ago, you told me Trump was withdrawing from the world. Now you're listing a bunch of stuff that's business as usual, and giving me the Russia nonsense as the reason that Trump can't conduct our inverventionist business as usual. Pick a lane.

hose fake start up countries can do as they please, but that should not obligate us to bear the consequences or defend their borders.
.

It hasn't. We're not defending the Ukraine or any other non-NATO country.

..& then you b!tch about DoD spending & when we take casualties. [/color]
You're advocating we intervene in Venezuela, Syria, N Korea, and Turkey. Not me.

If we stay out of it? We save both money and casualties. So I have no clue what you're talking about here.

You put words in my mouth, which I clearly did not say, just so you have a strawman to argue with.

Your rants have become incoherent. Go listen to Rush & yell at the radio.

[a fan]

You're intentionally not saying anything concrete, so there's nothing to refute. So the discussion gets bogged down. Not my fault..

Example? You have made fun of Russia sanctions for two years, and never resist a chance to tell me how stupid they are.

But when I say "you want the sanctions dropped", you clutch your pearls, tell me you never said that, and accuse me of building a straw man. Then you give me the vague "I want us to engage with Russia", when there is absolutely nothing in the way of that happening.
.

[old salt]

You're intentionally not saying anything concrete, so there's nothing to refute. So the discussion gets bogged down. Not my fault..

Example? You have made fun of Russia sanctions for two years, and never resist a chance to tell me how stupid they are.

But when I say "you want the sanctions dropped", you clutch your pearls, tell me you never said that, and accuse me of building a straw man. Then you give me the vague "I want us to engage with Russia", when there is absolutely nothing in the way of that happening.
.

I have pointed out that our reflexive overuse use of sanctions, for domestic political purposes, has caused them to lose their impact & are dividing us from our allies, who face a much greater threat from Russia than we do, yet are much more judicious in their use of sanctions against Russia.

What have our sanctions accomplished ? Where have they altered Russia's policies or behavior ?

Yet every sanction we levy, makes the situation more intractable, locks us onto our Cold War path, & makes co-operation & return to detente, less likely. Promiscuous use of sanctions makes us more isolationist.

[a fan]

Great. So please don't tell me I'm building strawmen when I read your above position, and conclude that you want the sanctions dropped.

Did you use the exact words "I want him to drop the sanctions"? No. I'm not blind. But please don't jump all over me when I read post after post after post telling me how you think the sanctions are pointless......and come to the obvious conclusion that you think we should drop the sanctions.