LaxPower Back-Up Stick

I've never thought that stats totals mattered a whole lot in assessing relative caliber of players for all the reasons cited.

Stats totals are a mere starting point in seeing who had a lot of impact in their respective eras. If you're a starter in lots of games, the numbers have a chance to pile up. But that's just a first cut.

The per game averages are a much more relevant comparison and even that's imperfect as the game has changed. But at least the games are the same length...

For instance, how many saves a tender has had in a season or career matters much less than the saves % made in a season, in a career. And yet with stick technology, goalie % have declined over the eras as the ball has sped up and from tougher to read releases. So, it's all relative.

And then there are the intangibles.

And then there are the advantages of playing on super teams...much harder for a goalie, for instance, when the team is relatively weak and possession advantages and unsettled situations skew hard against him, game after game after game...but more saves are at least possible given volume of shots...a 55% saves percentage in such a game can be amazing when a 60% saves percentage against a weak opponent is just another good day against an opponent taking poor shots.

Point is, it's much more complicated than totals...

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:52 am I've never thought that stats totals mattered a whole lot in assessing relative caliber of players for all the reasons cited.

Stats totals are a mere starting point in seeing who had a lot of impact in their respective eras. If you're a starter in lots of games, the numbers have a chance to pile up. But that's just a first cut.

The per game averages are a much more relevant comparison and even that's imperfect as the game has changed. But at least the games are the same length...

For instance, how many saves a tender has had in a season or career matters much less than the saves % made in a season, in a career. And yet with stick technology, goalie % have declined over the eras as the ball has sped up and from tougher to read releases. So, it's all relative.

And then there are the intangibles.

And then there are the advantages of playing on super teams...much harder for a goalie, for instance, when the team is relatively weak and possession advantages and unsettled situations skew hard against him, game after game after game...but more saves are at least possible given volume of shots...a 55% saves percentage in such a game can be amazing when a 60% saves percentage against a weak opponent is just another good day against an opponent taking poor shots.

Point is, it's much more complicated than totals...

Agree with most of this. I am just pointing out that the extra year or 2 of development is a big deal. Someone like Degnon might get matched up on someone 5-6 years younger than him this season. Its just part of the mess the NCAA created with Covid.

coda wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:06 am Agree with most of this. I am just pointing out that the extra year or 2 of development is a big deal.

So most one year of extra "development: is due to injury and medical red-shirt or maybe academic difficulties. I think most would trade away that year of development. The normal 5 to make 4 applies to everyone and if a kid has two injuries and wants to get another year - no issues. With COVID - there was no answer where everyone says "Yep that's the solution - perfect" So no matter what happened you were going to have issues. Then age/grade/class is completely a nebulous thing in lacrosse where parents have the means and incentives (proper and otherwise) to hold kids back or have them do a prep year. You could have someone thought of as a normal senior going up against a freshman and the age difference could easily be 5 years at any time. As long as the rules applied to everybody and were applied reasonably - then play ball.

Anyone want to take a stab at the 2024 Depth Chart now that Degnon is officially back?

51percentcorn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:27 am

coda wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:06 am Agree with most of this. I am just pointing out that the extra year or 2 of development is a big deal.

So most one year of extra "development: is due to injury and medical red-shirt or maybe academic difficulties. I think most would trade away that year of development. The normal 5 to make 4 applies to everyone and if a kid has two injuries and wants to get another year - no issues. With COVID - there was no answer where everyone says "Yep that's the solution - perfect" So no matter what happened you were going to have issues. Then age/grade/class is completely a nebulous thing in lacrosse where parents have the means and incentives (proper and otherwise) to hold kids back or have them do a prep year. You could have someone thought of as a normal senior going up against a freshman and the age difference could easily be 5 years at any time. As long as the rules applied to everybody and were applied reasonably - then play ball.

He is playing 6 years, so it is 1 year injury + 1 Covid year. That extra year for COVID is big. It has also encouraged holding kids back. I am not saying there was a perfect solution, but I am not going to pretend it is not different

51percentcorn wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:58 am When the ACC used to have a "tournament" it was possible for Duke to play 17 +2 +4 games. Now everybody can adopt this model so I am not blaming Duke.

i see what u did there.

fwiw, degnon was previously in a 1 year grad program. this would mean he'll likely be taking up another one.

coda wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:39 am
Was not saying it is not a nice story. I am merely pointing out that the record books are going to be skewed by this period of time. His path to the record books could only be taken in a minute slice of that 140 year history. It is the same across sports and schools.

It's not always mere stats that determine a player's impact or greatness.
I don't think Brian Wood ever topped out the stats chart but he was a very impactful player. Whenever Hop needed a goal, he would literally score them in bunches. It would be BANG BANG BANG and the opposition would be back on it's heels, shell shocked.
Three National Championships speaks for itself. After his graduation, it would be 18 years before JHU won another title.
Wood never won the Enners Award or Turnball award but I thought he was the Michael Jordan of his era.

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:34 am Anyone want to take a stab at the 2024 Depth Chart now that Degnon is officially back?

This probably won't age well, but it's August 30 and we have no idea what will happen with freshmen, injuries, etc.

Most positions would appear *on paper* to be pretty settled already (that's what happens when you bring back a lot). The big question obviously is what the midfield rotation/groupings will look like with 12+ guys vying for 7-8 spots. For that reason I'm biased toward the upperclassmen in this exercise, but who knows if a freshman or two will emerge and if so, which one(s). It's a deep offensive class that will have opportunities galore in '25 and beyond — but this year it might be slim pickings for them barring injury. If a youngin forces the issue and gets on the field, it probably means they're #good.

Attack
Angelus
Degnon
Melendez

Midfield top 6
Collison
Grimes
English
Peshko
McDermott
Evans

Others who will see time on offense
Bauer
H. Chauvette
C. Chauvette
Marquis ("4th attackman"?)
Phillips

Defense
Smith
Szuluk
Brown

LSM
Deans
Kaufman

SSDM
Martin
Jaronski
Raposo
Aviles
Ince

FO
Dunn
Callahan

Goalie
Ierlan

I believe Billy Morrill , 1st team AA in the three seasons he played , is the all-time leader in goals / game ?
A rather meaningful statistic...

He is,

the JHU leader.

According to the 2019 Hopkins Record Book, Morrill is also the leader in points/game.
He had 174 points in 28 games for a 6.2 point/game.

He had 107 goals in 28 games for 3.82 goals per game.
Wish I had seen him play.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:09 pm

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:34 am Anyone want to take a stab at the 2024 Depth Chart now that Degnon is officially back?

This probably won't age well, but it's August 30 and we have no idea what will happen with freshmen, injuries, etc.

I think it will age very well, especially given the similarities from last year. Will be interesting to see which of the guys not listed can break into the rotation. Particularly interested in learning about younger poles. Not a lot of visibility there at this point. An awful lot of depth and talent on this team, the question to me is how many true star/legit AA type players there actually are (other than Collison and Smith).

I think some frosh (not mentioned) that might be in the mix will be:
Sorichetti, Iler, and Ayers.

Old Lax Fan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:34 pm According to the 2019 Hopkins Record Book, Morrill is also the leader in points/game.
He had 174 points in 28 games for a 6.2 point/game.

He had 107 goals in 28 games for 3.82 goals per game.
Wish I had seen him play.

Watching him score (with Mickey Webster so often feeding him) are my fondest memories of sitting high in the stands with my Dad during the 57 , 58 and 59 seasons.
Dad was a 1939 JHU grad.
The third attackman for two of those seasons was the quintessential crease attackman John Jory...second team AA for two seasons as I recall.

nyjay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:40 pm

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:09 pm

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:34 am Anyone want to take a stab at the 2024 Depth Chart now that Degnon is officially back?

This probably won't age well, but it's August 30 and we have no idea what will happen with freshmen, injuries, etc.

I think it will age very well, especially given the similarities from last year. Will be interesting to see which of the guys not listed can break into the rotation. Particularly interested in learning about younger poles. Not a lot of visibility there at this point. An awful lot of depth and talent on this team, the question to me is how many true star/legit AA type players there actually are (other than Collison and Smith).

With Szuluk, Stoebner, and possibly Smith leaving after this season they probably will want to develop at least one right-handed pole for 2025. You can always move Deans or Kaufman to close and that ultimately may be the easiest solution but there's a number of other guys who seem like potential candidates. IF Todaro ever beats the injury bug, you might look to him first — he was getting some PT early on before getting hurt again. Still has 3 years of eligibility. Didden was earning positive reviews in the preseason but didn't see the field (didn't need him to).

One dark dark horse, and I think HOB has called this out before, might be Forrest Ives. Originally an Air Force commit, went to Coach Koesterer's alma mater Cazenovia and has a hockey background. Upstate kid, just seems like the kind of guy who's going to buy in and endear himself to the staff. Don't know much else about him, just a feeling.

Re: AAs, Martin was an HM AA on both IL/media and USILA, and Melendez got USILA honors. Due to a few factors I don't see Melendez as a future Tewaaraton candidate (the nature of Crawley's share-the-ball offense, the perennially top 5 strength of schedule, etc.) BUT from a pure talent standpoint he is up there with the best of them. Wouldn't be surprised by a 2nd or 3rd team AA placement by the time he leaves Homewood. Aaaand then there is Angelus, who was shafted by the AA voters despite having more points than a ton of the HM guys. Primary distributors do tend to get overlooked. Defensively, all Patty Deans does is make impact plays all over the field and if he can put together a full healthy season, watch out. Brown has the looks of a guy who could end up on one of these lists as well.

Old Lax Fan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:34 pm According to the 2019 Hopkins Record Book, Morrill is also the leader in points/game.
He had 174 points in 28 games for a 6.2 point/game.

He had 107 goals in 28 games for 3.82 goals per game.
Wish I had seen him play.

Webster to Morrill: https://www.usalacrosse.com/player-prof ... -m-webster

Apparently, an amazing duo.

BlueJaySince1947 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:47 pm

Old Lax Fan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:34 pm According to the 2019 Hopkins Record Book, Morrill is also the leader in points/game.
He had 174 points in 28 games for a 6.2 point/game.

He had 107 goals in 28 games for 3.82 goals per game.
Wish I had seen him play.

Watching him score (with Mickey Webster so often feeding him) are my fondest memories of sitting high in the stands with my Dad during the 57 , 58 and 59 seasons.
Dad was a 1939 JHU grad.
The third attackman for two of those seasons was the quintessential crease attackman John Jory...second team AA for two seasons as I recall.

I was a babe in arms for those years, but my dad told stories about these guys, played against them when he in the nets for Mount Washington.

Brown Kaufman and Deans are guys I'm looking forward to seeing the progress and growth from next spring. If the freshmen and Marquis/English are as good as HF16 thinks they are it's hard to imagine some of them won't wally pipp the now senior midfielders out of jobs particularly on man up.

Improvement at faceoffs and what they do if Ierlan gets hurt are underrated concerns.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:09 pm

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:34 am Anyone want to take a stab at the 2024 Depth Chart now that Degnon is officially back?

This probably won't age well, but it's August 30 and we have no idea what will happen with freshmen, injuries, etc.

Most positions would appear *on paper* to be pretty settled already (that's what happens when you bring back a lot). The big question obviously is what the midfield rotation/groupings will look like with 12+ guys vying for 7-8 spots. For that reason I'm biased toward the upperclassmen in this exercise, but who knows if a freshman or two will emerge and if so, which one(s). It's a deep offensive class that will have opportunities galore in '25 and beyond — but this year it might be slim pickings for them barring injury. If a youngin forces the issue and gets on the field, it probably means they're #good.

Attack
Angelus
Degnon
Melendez

Midfield top 6
Collison
Grimes
English
Peshko
McDermott
Evans

Others who will see time on offense
Bauer
H. Chauvette
C. Chauvette
Marquis ("4th attackman"?)
Phillips

Defense
Smith
Szuluk
Brown

LSM
Deans
Kaufman

SSDM
Martin
Jaronski
Raposo
Aviles
Ince

FO
Dunn
Callahan

Goalie
Ierlan

This is a nice list of midfielders with lots of stats, warm and fuzzy memories, offseason instagram videos from canada and IL bouquets but if the game and season are on the line next May the only proven d1 name I trust or think right now Crawley/PM should no doubt want on the field is collison. None of those other guys are can't take off the field he can win us the game players and that's what they have to find between now and January. They need to find a stone cold top 3-5 not ways to play 8-10.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:12 am

BlueJaySince1947 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:47 pm

Old Lax Fan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:34 pm According to the 2019 Hopkins Record Book, Morrill is also the leader in points/game.
He had 174 points in 28 games for a 6.2 point/game.

He had 107 goals in 28 games for 3.82 goals per game.
Wish I had seen him play.

Watching him score (with Mickey Webster so often feeding him) are my fondest memories of sitting high in the stands with my Dad during the 57 , 58 and 59 seasons.
Dad was a 1939 JHU grad.
The third attackman for two of those seasons was the quintessential crease attackman John Jory...second team AA for two seasons as I recall.

I was a babe in arms for those years, but my dad told stories about these guys, played against them when he in the nets for Mount Washington.

During the Morrill / Webster era Bob Scott was loathe to run up the score although it was difficult to shut down a deep efficient Jays scoring machine.
An example that I well recall was the 1959 midweek Loyola romp...29 - 3. The super duo played only the first quarter. Morrill could have scored a dozen goals in that mismatch increasing his season total to well over 50.