LaxPower Back-Up Stick

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:06 pm g maybe they become less prolific at it, but more likely they've for whatever reason become less prolific at recruiting it.

That's where my money is, and I'm all in. Both for SU and JHU.

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:06 pm generally speaking:
most any scheme can work. you have to have players and coaching that allow it to.

certainly you have to recruit to the scheme, but if that didn't work out any coach knows they need to try to tweak to fit to the players.

+1000.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:12 pm

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:06 pm generally speaking:
most any scheme can work. you have to have players and coaching that allow it to.

certainly you have to recruit to the scheme, but if that didn't work out any coach knows they need to try to tweak to fit to the players.

then it's down to are the players just not able to execute, or the coaches not able to coach it. that last part really can't be known without being there.

again generally speaking... i tend to think coaches don't forget how to coach. maybe they become less prolific at it, but more likely they've for whatever reason become less prolific at recruiting it.

Committing pretty much an entire class 3 years before they graduated from HS isn’t helpful.

generally speaking.

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:17 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:12 pm

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:06 pm generally speaking:
most any scheme can work. you have to have players and coaching that allow it to.

certainly you have to recruit to the scheme, but if that didn't work out any coach knows they need to try to tweak to fit to the players.

then it's down to are the players just not able to execute, or the coaches not able to coach it. that last part really can't be known without being there.

again generally speaking... i tend to think coaches don't forget how to coach. maybe they become less prolific at it, but more likely they've for whatever reason become less prolific at recruiting it.

Committing pretty much an entire class 3 years before they graduated from HS isn’t helpful.

generally speaking.

Right. Generally speaking. There are always exceptions. I will never understand how taking 10-11 freshmen was smart. Those days are over. It will help the “power schools” for sure. Hopkins will be fine.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:30 pm

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:17 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:12 pm

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:06 pm generally speaking:
most any scheme can work. you have to have players and coaching that allow it to.

certainly you have to recruit to the scheme, but if that didn't work out any coach knows they need to try to tweak to fit to the players.

then it's down to are the players just not able to execute, or the coaches not able to coach it. that last part really can't be known without being there.

again generally speaking... i tend to think coaches don't forget how to coach. maybe they become less prolific at it, but more likely they've for whatever reason become less prolific at recruiting it.

Committing pretty much an entire class 3 years before they graduated from HS isn’t helpful.

generally speaking.

Right. Generally speaking. There are always exceptions. I will never understand how taking 10-11 freshmen was smart. Those days are over. It will help the “power schools” for sure. Hopkins will be fine.

going from 100% knowing you have an advantage to hoping you can project. weird how coaches let that happen.

don't feel the same about offenses. some are better than others. and to me if you're predictable, you've made it much easier on the d.

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:13 pm

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:01 pm Uh no, the expectation was the exact opposite—that scoring would go up—and that's exactly what happened.

Yes, generally speaking. But what I thought would happen is that a few teams would find a way to use the clock to their defensive advantage. Tierney. Or Army. Or Navy. Or....someone. Nope.

That didn't happen. There are no tough defenses anymore.

Sure there are, it's just that the goal posts have moved. Army is still a tough/successful defense relative to other teams. That's really all that matters. It's still hard to score on Army's defense, but teams are getting more chances to do so.

Efficiency metrics are a lot more helpful than sheer goal totals when assessing a defense. Especially when comparing teams of different eras.

I haven't looked that deep into it but I'd bet there are some defenses that might be giving up more total goals now than before, but are also making more stops per possessions than they used to—and are therefore more efficient. But because there are more possessions, there are more goals, and it looks worse in the box score. But the defensive play itself isn't any worse.

Obviously, that's not the case for everyone. Some, like Hopkins in 2020 and Cuse in 2021, saw the bottom fall out from the D in a big way.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:24 pm I haven't looked that deep into it but I'd bet there are some defenses that might be giving up more total goals now than before, but are also making more stops per possessions than they used to—and are therefore more efficient. But because there are more possessions, there are more goals, and it looks worse in the box score. But the defensive play itself isn't any worse.

We'd have to see the metrics. Do we even know if there are more possessions per game, across the board?

I'm not seeing good D. The games are still the same length. So if there are more possessions per team, obviously that means that they have to play D for shorter spans....which, again, is why I thought a few exemplary D teams would be able to bring the GAA down. Not an unreasonable supposition.

Anyone know where we can find these numbers?

a fan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:54 pm

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:24 pm I haven't looked that deep into it but I'd bet there are some defenses that might be giving up more total goals now than before, but are also making more stops per possessions than they used to—and are therefore more efficient. But because there are more possessions, there are more goals, and it looks worse in the box score. But the defensive play itself isn't any worse.

We'd have to see the metrics. Do we even know if there are more possessions per game, across the board?

I'm not seeing good D. The games are still the same length. So if there are more possessions per team, obviously that means that they have to play D for shorter spans....which, again, is why I thought a few exemplary D teams would be able to bring the GAA down. Not an unreasonable supposition.

Anyone know where we can find these numbers?

https://lacrossereference.com/stats/def ... th-d1-men/

https://lacrossereference.com/stats/adj ... cy-d1-men/

http://analyticslacrosse.com/about

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:06 pm again generally speaking... i tend to think coaches don't forget how to coach. maybe they become less prolific at it, but more likely they've for whatever reason become less prolific at recruiting it.

It's not that they forget how to coach, it's that the game passes them by.
Other coaches evolve and progress, while the dinosaurs stay static.
Dinos vs mammals. The mammals win.
Time waits for no one.

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:38 am

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:06 pm again generally speaking... i tend to think coaches don't forget how to coach. maybe they become less prolific at it, but more likely they've for whatever reason become less prolific at recruiting it.

It's not that they forget how to coach, it's that the game passes them by.
Other coaches evolve and progress, while the dinosaurs stay static.
Dinos vs mammals. The mammals win.
Time waits for no one.

everybody gets takes.
i've seen petro coach in various settings the last 5 years, and discuss strategy as well.
i'm not too confused by what offenses are doing.

dodge and dump just won the national championship.

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:51 am dodge and dump just won the national championship.

Give it to Jordan. Complicated stuff that a Division I coach couldn't possibly figure out.

As for the game passing Petro by....what happens if he wins up there? Is the game to say "oh, he changed his philosophy"?

And what's the word on Benson? Did the game pass him by, or not?

I don't think anyone has ever argued the game has passed Benson by. Even his biggest critics haven't gone remotely that far. Once again—people have criticized aspects of the offense over the years but the consensus still was, rightly so, that Benson was a solid coach who did a good job.

He reinvented the offense in 2014 to fit the personnel he had—a smart move that paid dividends. His offenses were routinely in the top 10-15 in the country (and among the best on EMO).

I'm not saying no one has ever complained about the guy, because obviously that would not be true, but there wasn't some wholesale vendetta against him either. The majority of Hopkins fans would tell you he did good work here. Honestly the only people I remember being skeptical of his hire at Maryland were...Maryland fans.

By the guy's own admission, his only goal was to come in and not screw things up. Mission accomplished. They were already at nearly 16 goals per game in 2020—small sample size, yes, but they scored 17 on Penn and 14 on Notre Dame and Richmond that year. Not like the schedule was full of cupcakes or terrible defenses.

Back to Petro—it's perfectly fair and reasonable to wish his defenses were more aggressive. Maybe that wouldn't have made things any better, but it's not an outlandish take. The style that his Cuse defense employs might tell us a thing or two about how he appraises his later Hopkins defenses in retrospect.

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:09 am

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:51 am dodge and dump just won the national championship.

Give it to Jordan. Complicated stuff that a Division I coach couldn't possibly figure out.

As for the game passing Petro by....what happens if he wins up there? Is the game to say "oh, he changed his philosophy"?

And what's the word on Benson? Did the game pass him by, or not?

Benson has always been a good coach.

Petro’s D got stale and dated, which hurt his recruiting of defensive players. He has a fresh start now, and while he won’t abandon the basics, I do think we’ll see some new things from his defense.

DocBarrister

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:26 am I don't think anyone has ever argued the game has passed Benson by. Even his biggest critics haven't gone remotely that far. Once again—people have criticized aspects of the offense over the years but the consensus still was, rightly so, that Benson was a solid coach who did a good job.

He reinvented the offense in 2014 to fit the personnel he had—a smart move that paid dividends. His offenses were routinely in the top 10-15 in the country (and among the best on EMO).

Wait a sec......finishing in the top 10-15 every year is the entire reason Petro was let go, correct? So how is that an acceptable performance from Benson?

Benson needed to routinely generate a top 4 offense. Not every year. But enough to make Final Fours....that was the bar at Hopkins.

He didn't do that in the last several years. And Petro was canned for it. You can't say that Benson did his job, and Petro didn't. That doesn't make any sense.

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:09 am

wgdsr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:51 am dodge and dump just won the national championship.

Give it to Jordan. Complicated stuff that a Division I coach couldn't possibly figure out.

As for the game passing Petro by....what happens if he wins up there? Is the game to say "oh, he changed his philosophy"?

And what's the word on Benson? Did the game pass him by, or not?

I had to laugh. I remember a game in the late 60s, at Homewood. I don't remember who Hopkins was playing. I don't remember the final score. Hopkins had cleared the ball very late in the 4th quarter. My memory is of Bob Scott screaming at the top of his lungs “Give it to Joe! Give it to Joe! Give it to Joe!”. “Joe” was Joe Cowan.

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:06 pm

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:26 am I don't think anyone has ever argued the game has passed Benson by. Even his biggest critics haven't gone remotely that far. Once again—people have criticized aspects of the offense over the years but the consensus still was, rightly so, that Benson was a solid coach who did a good job.

He reinvented the offense in 2014 to fit the personnel he had—a smart move that paid dividends. His offenses were routinely in the top 10-15 in the country (and among the best on EMO).

Wait a sec......finishing in the top 10-15 every year is the entire reason Petro was let go, correct? So how is that an acceptable performance from Benson?

Benson needed to routinely generate a top 4 offense. Not every year. But enough to make Final Fours....that was the bar at Hopkins.

He didn't do that in the last several years. And Petro was canned for it. You can't say that Benson did his job, and Petro didn't. That doesn't make any sense.

What on god's green earth are you talking about?

Teams make Final Fours every year without having a top 4 offense. Duke did it this season. Prior to winning the title, Virginia's wasn't either. They still didn't finish top 4 in efficiency.

Virginia wasn't top 4 offensively in 2019 either. Duke wasn't even close that year and made it. They were #21 or something.

Precisely ZERO of the 2017 Final Four teams had top 4 offenses. Two of them weren't even top 15. Ohio State made the title game with the #19 offense in goals scored—Hopkins was #16 that year but had a drastically inferior defense.

Anyway, Hop was #3 in adjusted offensive efficiency in 2018 and 2016. Didn't make the Final Four either year. Want to take a guess what the equivalent defensive stats were those years?

I can go back further but I hope you get the point. Making Final Fours is not some simple algorithm where if you're top 4 in offense you're automatically in or if you're outside the top 10 you have no chance of making it.

If Petro's defenses had been top 10-15 these years, they probably would have made more Final Fours. A top 10-15 offense and a top 10-15 defense in the same year is an instant Final Four contender.

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:06 pm

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:26 am I don't think anyone has ever argued the game has passed Benson by. Even his biggest critics haven't gone remotely that far. Once again—people have criticized aspects of the offense over the years but the consensus still was, rightly so, that Benson was a solid coach who did a good job.

He reinvented the offense in 2014 to fit the personnel he had—a smart move that paid dividends. His offenses were routinely in the top 10-15 in the country (and among the best on EMO).

Wait a sec......finishing in the top 10-15 every year is the entire reason Petro was let go, correct? So how is that an acceptable performance from Benson?

Benson needed to routinely generate a top 4 offense. Not every year. But enough to make Final Fours....that was the bar at Hopkins.

He didn't do that in the last several years. And Petro was canned for it. You can't say that Benson did his job, and Petro didn't. That doesn't make any sense.

You don’t need a top 4 offense to get to the final 4. You show me a top 4 goalie in save % and a top 4 FOGO in face off wins and now we are talking.

Zinn is off to UVA.

Not a surprise. Virginia was one of his schools during the recruiting process. Lars will probably try to turn him into a poor man's Ryan Conrad.

Wish him the best.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:13 pm Zinn is off to UVA.

Not a surprise. Virginia was one of his schools during the recruiting process. Lars will probably try to turn him into a poor man's Ryan Conrad.

Wish him the best.

That’s a great spot for Zinn. He’s going to do well…..closer to a poor man’s Matt Moore. Conrad had a certain amount of grit and physicality that I have never seen in Zinn. + athlete for sure.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:54 pm What on god's green earth are you talking about?

Teams make Final Fours every year without having a top 4 offense.

I'm not explaining myself well again, obviously. Of COURSE teams make it to Final Fours without a top 4 offense.

That's not the conversation we're having. Benson was coach for 13 years, no? Access to top recruits by any metric.

My point is: if Benson did such a fine job, wouldn't you think that he could take those top recruits, and manage to put a top offense on the field every now and again?

And yet in 13 years, the best he could do with that top talent was the #9 offense in the land. To quote Brad Pitt, "if he's a good hitter, how come he isn't hitting"? And not only did he not ever--not once---have a top 4 offense.....he also fell out of your top 10-15 defense 5 times in that span. If your goal is to make Final Fours, you're asking your defense to take you there. Because your O is good to "meh", depending on the year.

Was Hopkins EVER an offensive powerhouse under Benson? No, right? So it's reasonable to ask why folks think that Benson did his job, and Petro didn't.

It's just a question.