LaxPower Back-Up Stick

drunkmonkey30 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:08 am

jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that

Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.

A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?

I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78

and here I thought NJIT was some sort of pejorative for Rutgers, but is in fact a real college lacrosse program of its own.

joewillie78 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:15 am

drunkmonkey30 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:08 am

jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that

Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.

A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?

I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78

A single loss to a better team but one goal can be understandable but not losing 3 out of 4. Most coaches will say that if you play well and lose it is worse than playing poorly and winning, if you play well and still lose you have problems.

joewillie78 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:15 am

drunkmonkey30 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:08 am

jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that

Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.

A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?

I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78

For me, losses come into account only after evaluating wins. In the case of "a loss to MD = a loss to NJIT" that would only come into play if two teams had equal quality wins. First, I evaluate number of losses. Those being equal, then the team with a loss to MD might get the nod over a team with a loss to NJIT. But that scenario is very unlikely to happen, or it would indicate that NJIT is a pretty good team this year. Overall, a "close loss" is never better than any win. To do so just opens up too many avenues for implicit bias. Teams like ND have ample opportunity to prove they can win games, and will be ranked accordingly if they do. And if they don't they aren't a good team.

You have to win games to get into the tournament, and you have to win games to stay in the tournament.

drunkmonkey30 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:08 am

jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that

Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.

A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?

It’s a loss. You don’t get credit for losses. You get credit for wins.

From 2 - 30 it's absolute insanity and you can make cases for many teams going up and down.

I do however think a loss to a top 20 team if close should not crush a team, especially if you compare it to teams that play poor teams and win. Teams that have the guts to play top teams should not be punished for it, and teams that play weak schedules should not be rewarded.

rolldodge wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:40 am

joewillie78 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:15 am

drunkmonkey30 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:08 am

jrn19 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:37 pm There shouldn’t be such a thing as quality losses. If you’re performing well in games I don’t in I that’s a fair component to incorporate, but QL’s shouldn’t be a metric and when you only have 1 win over a bad team, how you’ve performed in losses doesn’t matter, you’re not winning any of these games and so you should be dinged for that

Additionally, while all of ND’s losses could be described as “close” and you could argue they’ve played well in them…they haven’t really led for that long in any of them. They led for around 10 mins or so against Maryland, and then for <20 mins against OSU. So out of 180 mins, they’ve led for less than 20% of them. They’re in the games, but they’ve never looked anything but not quite as good.

A loss to MD = loss to NJIT?

I Agree 100%. I do incorporate "quality" losses into my poll. In fact, I would say right now, losing to MD, UVA, maybe even the top IVIES by a single goal, may be more impressive than beating a so called lesser team by multiple goals.
That's just simply the way I Feel this year especially, as we have in my opinion, only a FEW ELITE teams that losing a close game to should not ding your resume, very much.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78

For me, losses come into account only after evaluating wins. In the case of "a loss to MD = a loss to NJIT" that would only come into play if two teams had equal quality wins. First, I evaluate number of losses. Those being equal, then the team with a loss to MD might get the nod over a team with a loss to NJIT. But that scenario is very unlikely to happen, or it would indicate that NJIT is a pretty good team this year. Overall, a "close loss" is never better than any win. To do so just opens up too many avenues for implicit bias. Teams like ND have ample opportunity to prove they can win games, and will be ranked accordingly if they do. And if they don't they aren't a good team.

You have to win games to get into the tournament, and you have to win games to stay in the tournament.

you have to win the rpi game to get into the tournament. then you have to win games.

this rankings game is for ish and giggles.

xxxxxxx wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:40 pm From 2 - 30 it's absolute insanity and you can make cases for many teams going up and down.

I do however think a loss to a top 20 team if close should not crush a team, especially if you compare it to teams that play poor teams and win. Teams that have the guts to play top teams should not be punished for it, and teams that play weak schedules should not be rewarded.

Should be more of an art than science in evaluating these teams, and it's just too early. Generally, a few tough losses can be forgiven (Notre Dame), but you gotta start winning them at some point or see ya later (looking at you Penn State.)

To the point above, every D1 college coach wishes they could schedule the teams UMD and Penn State get. It's not that they don't "have the guts" it's that the blue chips of the world have no real incentive to play a 20-30 ranked team--no RPI boost, with only a potential ugly loss. Add in geography/budgets and it only gets harder for the mid tier programs who are usually less funded to begin with.

Forum Polls due on Monday at noon EST. Enjoy this weekend's games. https://fanlax.com/2020/01/30/fanlax-forum-polls/

I no longer even feel good about my Top 10 let alone anything 10-25. It's a train wreck for me after #7 or so.

Maryland. 7-0 High Point, Loyola, Syracuse, Princeton, Notre Dame, Albany, Virginia
Cornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale
Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland
Georgetown. 6-1 Hopkins, Penn, Notre Dame. Mt St Marys, Richmond, Utah /// L to Princeton
Virginia. 6-1 Air Force, High Point, Towson, Syracuse, Hopkins, UNC /// L to Maryland
Rutgers. 8-1 LIU, Marist, St Johns, Army, Loyola, Stony Brook, Lafayette, Hofstra /// L to Princeton
Ohio State. 5-2 Detroit Mercy, Cleveland State, North Carolina, Harvard, Notre Dame  /// L to Cornell, Denver
UNC.  6-2 Richmond. Colgate, Brown, Hopkins, Denver, High Point /// L to Ohio State, Virginia 
Harvard 4-1 NJIT, Fairfield, Michigan, Brown /// L to Ohio State
Penn. 3-2 Duke, Penn State, Villanova /// L to GTown, Princeton
Yale. 3-2 Villanova, UMass, Denver. /// L to Penn State, Cornell
Boston U. 6-0 Merrimack, Bryant, UMASS, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross
Lehigh 4-2 Navy, NJIT, Holy Cross, Army /// L to Hobart, Cornell
Brown 5-2 Quinn, Vermont, Villanova, Providence, Stony Brook /// L to UNC, Harvard
Jacksonville. 7-2 Duke, Mercer, Marquette, Denver, Air Force, Bellarmine, UMass Lowell /// L to Hopkins, Utah,
Duke. 8-3 Robert Morris, Vermont, Manhattan, Delaware, High Point, Richmond, Towson /// L to Penn, Jacksonville, Loyola
Denver. 4-4 Utah, Air Force, Cansius, Ohio State /// L to Duke, Jacksonville, UNC, Yale
Army. 6-2 UMASS, Sienna, NJIT, Syracuse, Holy Cross, Lafayette /// L to Rutgers, Lehigh
Michigan 7-2 Bellarmine, Detroit Mercy, Holy cross, Canisus, Cleveland State, Delaware /// L to Harvard, Notre Dame
Delaware. 6-2 NJIT, MSM, St Josephs, Monmouth, Marist, Hopkins /// L to Duke, Michigan
St. Joseph's 6-2 St. Bon, Penn State, Providence, Monmouth, Towson, MSM /// L to Delaware
Bucknell. 5-2 Mercer, Robert Morris, St Johns, Marist, Binghamton. /// L to Boston U, Loyola
Loyola. 3-4 Lafayette, Duke, Bucknell /// L to Maryland, Hopkins, Rutgers, Towson
Dartmouth. 4-1 Bryant, Siena, Vermont., St Johns /// L to Merrimack
Notre Dame. 2-3 Detroit Mercy, Michigan /// L to Georgetown, Maryland, Ohio State
-----------------------------------------

Also considered
Hopkins. 4-5 Jacksonville, Towson, Loyola, Syracuse /// L to UNC, Georgetown, Virginia, Navy, Delaware
Utah 3-3 Vermont, Marquette, Jacksonville. /// L to Denver, UMBC, Georgetown
Villanova 4-3 Penn State, Fairfield, Hofstra, Drexel /// L to Yale, Brown, Penn
Navy. 5-3 Mercer, Hofstra, Manhattan, Colgate, Hopkins /// L to High Point, Lehigh, MSM
Stony brook. 5-3 Fairfield, Robert Morris, St Johns, LIU, UMass Lowell  /// L to Rutgers, Brown, Syracuse
High Point 4-4 Colgate, Navy, Bellarmine, Robert Morris /// L to Maryland, Virginia, Duke, UNC
Fairfield 5-3. Wagner, Sacred Heart, Quinn, Binghamton, Providence /// L to Stony Brook, Villanova, Harvard
Drexel 4-3 Albany, LIU, St Joes, Marquette /// L to UMBC, Lafayette, Villanova
Richmond 4-3 Marist, Towson, St Bon, UMBC /// L to UNC, Duke, Gtown
St Bonaventure. 6-2 Bellarmine, VMI, Hampton, Cleveland State, Marist /// L to St Joes, Richmond
Towson 3-5 Mt St Marys, Loyola, UMBC /// L to Hopkins, Virginia, Richmond, St Joes, Duke
Syracuse. 3-4 Holy Cross, Hobart, Stony Brook /// L to Maryland, Virginia, Army, Hopkins

Wheels wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:32 pm I no longer even feel good about my Top 10 let alone anything 10-25. It's a train wreck for me after #7 or so.

Don't worry. I'll straighten you out...

rolldodge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:33 am Cornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale
Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland

Roll, you're blinded by "undefeated" coupled with perennial power. Look at P'ton's wins vs. Cornell's. P'ton's are obviously better. As for their loss, it's a loss. To the #1 team. It's just a loss...

FanLax Computer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:44 am

Wheels wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:32 pm I no longer even feel good about my Top 10 let alone anything 10-25. It's a train wreck for me after #7 or so.

Don't worry. I'll straighten you out...

rolldodge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:33 am Cornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale
Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland

Roll, you're blinded by "undefeated" coupled with perennial power. Look at P'ton's wins vs. Cornell's. P'ton's are obviously better. As for their loss, it's a loss. To the #1 team. It's just a loss...

I think you can make a very good argument for Princeton over Cornell. I did give the benefit of the doubt to the undefeated record. I also don't like that Princeton's defense gave up 20 goals.

I went with Cornell over Princeton because they are undefeated. Ivies will sort themselves out in the next couple of weeks. I have two Ivies over the erstwhile number two, who failed to give Maryland a game.

1 p'ton
2 umd
3 uva
4 cornell
5 g'town
6 unc
7 penn
8 harvard
9 boston
10 tosu
11 rutgers
12 yale
13 duke
14 und
15 brown
16 hopkins
17 high point
18 richmond
19 st joe's
20 delaware

It was a pleasure putting Jacksonville and BU in and leaving out Loyola, Hopkins, Syracuse and Denver -

rolldodge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:05 am

FanLax Computer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:44 am

Wheels wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:32 pm I no longer even feel good about my Top 10 let alone anything 10-25. It's a train wreck for me after #7 or so.

Don't worry. I'll straighten you out...

rolldodge wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:33 am Cornell. 6-0 UAlbany, Lehigh, Hobart, Ohio State, Penn State, Yale
Princeton 5-1 Monmouth, Binghamton, Gtown, Rutgers, Penn /// L to Maryland

Roll, you're blinded by "undefeated" coupled with perennial power. Look at P'ton's wins vs. Cornell's. P'ton's are obviously better. As for their loss, it's a loss. To the #1 team. It's just a loss...

I think you can make a very good argument for Princeton over Cornell. I did give the benefit of the doubt to the undefeated record. I also don't like that Princeton's defense gave up 20 goals.

6 man up goals will do that…

I'm not disputing the rankings nor do I think Cornell should be #2 this week. However, the poll lists Princeton as #2 above Cornell, yet Cornell has 8 votes for #2 while Princeton has only 5. Is this result due to others who ranked Cornell much lower?

laxfan1313 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:35 pm I'm not disputing the rankings nor do I think Cornell should be #2 this week. However, the poll lists Princeton as #2 above Cornell, yet Cornell has 8 votes for #2 while Princeton has only 5. Is this result due to others who ranked Cornell much lower?

Princeton was no lower than 3rd in any poll and Cornell had a few 4ths and I believe one 5th making Princeton's average position higher than Cornell's. I think this is the reason Princeton is 2nd and Cornell 3rd.
GOBIGRED
Joewillie78