Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[Typical Lax Dad]

[Typical Lax Dad]

Militarization and police violence: The case of the 1033 program

If you want something other than tripe, more reading.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Stay asleep

[cradleandshoot]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

[cradleandshoot]

You should also take away the bullet proof vests the police wear. That is a disturbing militarization of the police. It ain't fair if a bad guy pops a cap in their chest that the cop does not die. That ain't playing fair. I am just wondering TLD how far you want to go when it comes to demilitarizing the police? Are you in favor of demilitarizing the criminals as well or is this a one way street.

[RedFromMI]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

When it comes to a black man with a gun I think the fear is there regardless of whether it is legal or not - from a couple of years ago there was a case where the driver told the cops he had legal concealed carry and still got killed (without doing anything that should have made the cops shoot him other than they were scared to death of a black man with a gun...)

A cop does not know if a gun is legal or illegal without seeing a permit. But when the training involves the fear of an illegal gun, or a legal one that is a threat, the heightened emotional state can lead to a problem.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You should also take away the bullet proof vests the police wear. That is a disturbing militarization of the police. It ain't fair if a bad guy pops a cap in their chest that the cop does not die. That ain't playing fair. I am just wondering TLD how far you want to go when it comes to demilitarizing the police? Are you in favor of demilitarizing the criminals as well or is this a one way street.

This is why we never get anywhere. The stupid all or nothing mentality.....and get rid of guns for the police while we are at it.

[kramerica.inc]

Oddly, the dilemma with the left is they can’t stand the militarization of police and the growing “fascism” from the feds. AND they want to get rid of all the guns.

How do they plan to stop Trump’s supposed overthrow of government this January? With fireworks and umbrellas?

[jhu72]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday. I am not trying to argue against citizens owning guns, I AM SIMPLY MAKING THE OBVIOUS POINT, no guns, the smaller the problem of policing. That's not going to happen, and it should be clear to everyone by now that the status quo cannot remain in place. Police are going to have to accept more risk in their interaction with citizens, or the process of policing is going to have to change significantly.

[cradleandshoot]

I am all in on this defunding of police, mob style shakedown is BS.

https://www.newamerica.org/weekly/we-ne ... orfeiture/

What does "defunding" the police actually mean? How do you defund the police and still protect the citizens of your city from crime? Defund the police is nothing but a stupid buzzword that would create more problems than it would solve.

I assume you're asking a serious question.

I prefer Biden's responses on this one, that he doesn't want to lower police budgets, but he does want to demilitarize and train far better, and he wants to get rid of the bad apples not just pass them department to department much less give them license to do more damage.

And he embraces investments in addressing crime through social services improvements.

But what the term is intended to mean is that we spend enormous resources in America in policing and incarcerating, when many of the drivers of "crime" could be much better addressed by smarter, larger investments in social services, addressing poverty, mental and physical health, opportunity, etc.

The most strident activists want to actually reduce funding to police, while shifting those scarce budget dollars to social services which will reduce crime dynamics a better way.

Again, I think Biden's response is better, increase the investments in other ways to combat drivers of crime and reap the rewards in lower incarceration and policing costs downstream. Take the long view.

I'd go a step further and address the chief driver of most violent crime, the failed 'war on drugs' and decriminalize drug possession and address addiction as a health care matter, not a criminal matter. Which is not to say that there won't still be some black market traffickers to address, ala cigarettes and booze, but de minimus compared to today's challenge and huge costs.

Note, there are a lot of lobbyists for incarceration...it's a huge business...

"I prefer Biden's responses on this one, that he doesn't want to lower police budgets, but he does want to demilitarize and train far better, and he wants to get rid of the bad apples not just pass them department to department much less give them license to do more damage."

It was a very serious question. I understand the desire to demilitarize the police. The problem is the bad guys, the really, really bad guys don't care one way or the other. Do you expect the really bad guys to be impressed if the police become kinder and gentler? A good portion of the bad guys on the street have illegal weapons and will shoot down a cop at the drop of a hat. The police have a very fine line to walk. The public does not want them to be too aggressive but at the same time aggressive enough to handle any and all dangerous situations. Those dangerous situations don't come with a warning. They happen on a moments notice. A bad guy with a knife or a gun is a life threatening situation that you can't always see coming.

I understand what you are saying about the bad apples. They are protected by their unions. It is easier to want to get rid of them than it actually is to do it. They are damn near the equivalent of a teacher with tenure. They may not be very good at what they do but they work under a very powerful union contract that has their back.

Some light reading:

Militarization fails to enhance police safety or reduce crime but may harm police reputation

The increasingly visible presence of heavily armed police units in American communities has stoked widespread concern over the militarization of local law enforcement. Advocates claim militarized policing protects officers and deters violent crime, while critics allege these tactics are targeted at racial minorities and erode trust in law enforcement. Using a rare geocoded census of SWAT team deployments from Maryland, I show that militarized police units are more often deployed in communities with large shares of African American residents, even after controlling for local crime rates. Further, using nationwide panel data on local police militarization, I demonstrate that militarized policing fails to enhance officer safety or reduce local crime. Finally, using survey experiments—one of which includes a large oversample of African American respondents—I show that seeing militarized police in news reports may diminish police reputation in the mass public. In the case of militarized policing, the results suggest that the often-cited trade-off between public safety and civil liberties is a false choice.

We may be talking past each other here. I admit up front I don't have many solutions. I do understand that the really hardcore criminals don't give rats rear end if the police show up with automatic weapons and bazookas as opposed to six shot revolvers. They just want to stay out of jail. I don't believe very many of them have any intentions of demilitarizing themselves. I watch alot of those old re-runs of Adam 12. Talk about old fashioned cops. All they had were nightsticks and their revolvers. They did not have pistol belts filled with a ton of high tech gadgets and stuff. Of course back then not that many bad guys were very willing to shoot you.

Who said anything about it being all or nothing? There are hardened criminals around the globe. Not every local police force is militarized the way we are and they get good results. I wonder why the threat of shooting is more of a problem now?

Ask Officer Daryl Pierson, he is buried in a cemetery in East Rochester. The answer is what happened to the guy that killed Officer Pierson... the inmates at the Monroe County jailed cheered him as if he was their hero. Killing a cop is a heroic achievement in the eyes of any street criminal. That is not the case among other hardened criminals around the globe. The cops in the USA are militarized because they are are scared and intimidated by the threats they face everyday. The bad guys have access to high powered rifles with armor piercing ammunition. They also have access to state of the art ballistic vests. They can match the police in almost every aspect of firepower. In many respects their communications are more sophisticated than police have. Is it right for the police to have such state of the art equipment? The optics can be very scary, but the threat justifies the gear and the tactics. Your goal as a cop is to come home to your family every night. The goal of the criminals is to stay out of jail. It has become a high tech game of cat and mouse.

[Typical Lax Dad]

[cradleandshoot]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday. I am not trying to argue against citizens owning guns, I AM SIMPLY MAKING THE OBVIOUS POINT, no guns, the smaller the problem of policing. That's not going to happen, and it should be clear to everyone by now that the status quo cannot remain in place. Police are going to have to accept more risk in their interaction with citizens, or the process of policing is going to have to change significantly.

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."

I understand your point but I disagree. To a letter the folks that I know that legally own a gun, myself included, will go to any length to stop a legal gun from getting into the wrong hands. The only way a legal gun turns into an illegal gun is if the weapon is stolen or the owner breaks the law and wants to become a criminal. You are right, the police know they have to accept more risks when they interact with citizens. The police also have a right not to die doing so. That is a bit of a conundrum I know. The days of Sheriff Taylor with no gun died somewhere in Mayberry.

[Typical Lax Dad]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday. I am not trying to argue against citizens owning guns, I AM SIMPLY MAKING THE OBVIOUS POINT, no guns, the smaller the problem of policing. That's not going to happen, and it should be clear to everyone by now that the status quo cannot remain in place. Police are going to have to accept more risk in their interaction with citizens, or the process of policing is going to have to change significantly.

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."

I understand your point but I disagree. To a letter the folks that I know that legally own a gun, myself included, will go to any length to stop a legal gun from getting into the wrong hands. The only way a legal gun turns into an illegal gun is if the weapon is stolen or the owner breaks the law and wants to become a criminal. You are right, the police know they have to accept more risks when they interact with citizens. The police also have a right not to die doing so. That is a bit of a conundrum I know. The days of Sheriff Taylor with no gun died somewhere in Mayberry.

Find something else to do then.

[kramerica.inc]

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."
This is true, and the goal of the left with enough legislation.

[cradleandshoot]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday. I am not trying to argue against citizens owning guns, I AM SIMPLY MAKING THE OBVIOUS POINT, no guns, the smaller the problem of policing. That's not going to happen, and it should be clear to everyone by now that the status quo cannot remain in place. Police are going to have to accept more risk in their interaction with citizens, or the process of policing is going to have to change significantly.

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."

I understand your point but I disagree. To a letter the folks that I know that legally own a gun, myself included, will go to any length to stop a legal gun from getting into the wrong hands. The only way a legal gun turns into an illegal gun is if the weapon is stolen or the owner breaks the law and wants to become a criminal. You are right, the police know they have to accept more risks when they interact with citizens. The police also have a right not to die doing so. That is a bit of a conundrum I know. The days of Sheriff Taylor with no gun died somewhere in Mayberry.

Find something else to do then.

I don't mean to insult you TLD but that is a really dumb and unrealistic response. To the best of my knowledge most police love their job and willingly accept the risk that comes along with it. I am willing to go out on a limb and say you don't worry about getting shot everyday you are at work. To tell them to do something else is flippant and insulting to them.

[jhu72]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday. I am not trying to argue against citizens owning guns, I AM SIMPLY MAKING THE OBVIOUS POINT, no guns, the smaller the problem of policing. That's not going to happen, and it should be clear to everyone by now that the status quo cannot remain in place. Police are going to have to accept more risk in their interaction with citizens, or the process of policing is going to have to change significantly.

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."

I understand your point but I disagree. To a letter the folks that I know that legally own a gun, myself included, will go to any length to stop a legal gun from getting into the wrong hands. The only way a legal gun turns into an illegal gun is if the weapon is stolen or the owner breaks the law and wants to become a criminal. You are right, the police know they have to accept more risks when they interact with citizens. The police also have a right not to die doing so. That is a bit of a conundrum I know. The days of Sheriff Taylor with no gun died somewhere in Mayberry.

Find something else to do then.

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."
This is true, and the goal of the left with enough legislation.

... and the right's solution is, there is no problem as long as the flaws in the system only end up in black men dying.

[Typical Lax Dad]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday. I am not trying to argue against citizens owning guns, I AM SIMPLY MAKING THE OBVIOUS POINT, no guns, the smaller the problem of policing. That's not going to happen, and it should be clear to everyone by now that the status quo cannot remain in place. Police are going to have to accept more risk in their interaction with citizens, or the process of policing is going to have to change significantly.

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."

I understand your point but I disagree. To a letter the folks that I know that legally own a gun, myself included, will go to any length to stop a legal gun from getting into the wrong hands. The only way a legal gun turns into an illegal gun is if the weapon is stolen or the owner breaks the law and wants to become a criminal. You are right, the police know they have to accept more risks when they interact with citizens. The police also have a right not to die doing so. That is a bit of a conundrum I know. The days of Sheriff Taylor with no gun died somewhere in Mayberry.

Find something else to do then.

I don't mean to insult you TLD but that is a really dumb and unrealistic response. To the best of my knowledge most police love their job and willingly accept the risk that comes along with it. I am willing to go out on a limb and say you don't worry about getting shot everyday you are at work. To tell them to do something else is flippant and insulting to them.

I pursued a different career. I had some options. I don’t want a pilot, surgeon or cop to be bad at their jobs.

[cradleandshoot]

One huge issue that makes the American policing situation is the number of firearms (either legal or illegal) on the streets, combined with an approach to police training based on action from fear (those criminals must be armed so let's handle our interactions as if they all are).

If an officer approaches a situation expecting violence, it is going to get those trigger fingers itching...

Your choices are to figure out how to train a better approach that does not lead to a bloodbath of the police not prepared or to put some sensible limits on firearms...

Not an easy problem...

Get the guns out of the hands of private citizens and policing changes. Remove the fear from law enforcement. Few want to acknowledge this simple fact. Achieving it is another different matter.

Are you trying to differentiate between legally owned and illegal handguns? I don't believe legally owned firearms are the biggest concern the police have. Illegal handguns in the possession of a convicted felon are a very big problem for police.

Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday. I am not trying to argue against citizens owning guns, I AM SIMPLY MAKING THE OBVIOUS POINT, no guns, the smaller the problem of policing. That's not going to happen, and it should be clear to everyone by now that the status quo cannot remain in place. Police are going to have to accept more risk in their interaction with citizens, or the process of policing is going to have to change significantly.

"Legal guns turn into illegal guns everyday."

I understand your point but I disagree. To a letter the folks that I know that legally own a gun, myself included, will go to any length to stop a legal gun from getting into the wrong hands. The only way a legal gun turns into an illegal gun is if the weapon is stolen or the owner breaks the law and wants to become a criminal. You are right, the police know they have to accept more risks when they interact with citizens. The police also have a right not to die doing so. That is a bit of a conundrum I know. The days of Sheriff Taylor with no gun died somewhere in Mayberry.

Find something else to do then.

I don't mean to insult you TLD but that is a really dumb and unrealistic response. To the best of my knowledge most police love their job and willingly accept the risk that comes along with it. I am willing to go out on a limb and say you don't worry about getting shot everyday you are at work. To tell them to do something else is flippant and insulting to them.

I pursued a different career. I had some options. I don’t want a pilot, surgeon or cop to be bad at their jobs.

I get that. IMO to be a cop or a firefighter or an EMT you know from the start you ain't gonna get rich. You have to have a passion and a love for the work. We all hear about the bad things cops do. You seldom hear about all the good and unselfish things they do for the people they serve. Yeah it would be soooo easy to quit and do something else. I am glad for the most part they don't take your advice. For every cop that wants to walk away that means someone else maybe better, maybe worse has to take their place.

[ardilla secreta]

27% of officers say they’ve ever fired their guns on the job, according to another survey conducted by the National Police Research Platform.

Breaking down the numbers, 30 percent of male officers said they’ve discharged their weapon on duty, aside from training or time at a gun range — compared to 11 percent of female officers. Along racial lines, 31 percent of white officers have fired their gun, compared to 21 percent of nonwhites. And those who’ve served in the military are more likely to use their gun in the line of duty — 32 percent of veterans have done so compared to 26 percent of non-veterans.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... n-on-duty/

[MDlaxfan76]

27% of officers say they’ve ever fired their guns on the job, according to another survey conducted by the National Police Research Platform.

Breaking down the numbers, 30 percent of male officers said they’ve discharged their weapon on duty, aside from training or time at a gun range — compared to 11 percent of female officers. Along racial lines, 31 percent of white officers have fired their gun, compared to 21 percent of nonwhites. And those who’ve served in the military are more likely to use their gun in the line of duty — 32 percent of veterans have done so compared to 26 percent of non-veterans.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... n-on-duty/

hmmm, tough not to see what's happening there...