lagerhead wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:14 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:06 pm
lagerhead wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:54 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:20 am
lagerhead wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:29 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:14 pm
lagerhead wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:59 pm
ggait wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:28 pm
Manchin's "voter ID" requirement would expand the types of government ID that can be used in elections, for example by allowing voters to cast ballots if they display a utility bill.
That's totally fine. Colorado (the best fairest voting system in the nation) has some voter ID requirements. Below are the multiple acceptable forms of voter ID. Totally fair and fine and has been for years. Stacey Abrams and other Dems/libs have been fine with that for a long time.
What isn't fine (and should not be fine) is so-called "strict photo voter ID" which has a clear and demonstrated disenfranchising effect.
Guess which version of voter ID the GOP insists upon?
The kind like in TN. A gun permit is acceptable ID to vote. But a UT student photo ID is not. GMAFB.
A copy of a current (within the last 60 days) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the name and address of the elector.
.[/i]
How do any of these prove citizenship with the ability to get them with a TIN and a drivers license that are also available to undocumented? By themselves I don’t think they stand up but as part of a point system could be used in conjunction with. In NJ you have to provide 6 points to get a DL you can get one without showing citizenship. “ Real” DL’s have been delayed until ‘23.
Remember, of course, that voting fraudulently is against the law, a felony. In Colorado, the Class 5 felony penalty is $5,000 or 18 months in jail, or both.
https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/electi ... esFAQ.html
So the only way to have non-citizens voting illegally be widespread enough to move the needle is to persuade a very large number of non-citizens to risk being caught doing so. And doing so risks deportation as well.
Which is why such is so very rare.
Voting twice or in different jurisdictions, more than one of which would be illegal, is a mite easier, but also very risky for the offender. And not prevented by a picture ID.
Okay but someone voting illegally is not going to care about the penalty.
Not talking about moving the needle you need to be a citizen to vote how do those docs prove that?
I didn’t mention picture ids the additional documentation needed for the other ids does that. Why allow those forms of ID I quoted as a singular point of affirmation of voting rights?
Why do you think someone would risk $5000 fine or 18 months in jail, or both, just to register a single vote?
Note that you do need to be registered voter before voting. These forms of identity proof simply indicate that you are indeed the registered voter on the list when you show up to vote. But you can't vote if you're not registered.
When the DMV in California went to motor voter it registered a large number of ineligible people. Registered voters are targeted by all parties while electioneering, those that are targeted and automatically registered in error may think they have the right to vote. Enrollment in motor voter should be an affirmation not automatically put on the rolls.
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-a ... ation-foes
https://www.usavisacounsel.com/articles ... n-trap.htm
They found one non-citizen voter registered incorrectly out of how many???
Ohh the horror.
But sure, we don't want non-citizens voting.
But seriously, would you risk a $5k fine, 18 months in jail, deportation just to vote illegally?
How many people know the law or read the fine print?
sorry charley we are going to disagree on the sanctity of one of the most sacrosanct rights written in the constitution.
I'm not sure why you'd think we aren't in significant agreement on the importance of the right to vote. I hope you'd agree
with me that it's a hugely important right, fundamental to democracy, the expression of consent of the governed, and should not be abridged or taken away by those simply seeking their own power.
Right?
I'd certainly hope we agree on that.
So, when throughout our American history
all citizens have
not actually been afforded that right, we'd agree that it was hugely important and good when those rights were extended?
And that the struggle to achieve those rights, which was really, really hard, was worthwhile?
So, if we do agree, then you may well also agree that those trying to make it more difficult for certain people to vote, citizens, that's a very serious issue? And one which we should be on the side of those wishing to cast their vote?
Indeed, "sacrosanct" as in 'too important or valuable to be interfered with'. Especially by those seeking to prevent the free exercise of that right for their own personal power and gain!
Perhaps the clue in you thinking we disagree is in the word "sanctity" as in 'holy, sacred, or saintly'. Not sure there's something religious about this right, but if you simply mean super important and valuable, ok, again we agree, not disagree. But perhaps you think that if a non-citizen votes, even one, that diminishes the holiness or sacredness of all other votes? Certainly one could argue that there's a dilutive impact, but unless that dilution is significant, how should we weigh these competing interests?
What's in opposition are efforts to make voting more difficult, "abridged", in the hopes of reducing the exercise of this fundamental right, and the dilutive impact of even a single non-citizen voting whether on purpose fraudulently or somehow by accident.
Easy tradeoff to me, given indeed how important this "right" is for the citizen.
But let's also examine your initial question, do you really think many people, including immigrants, actually think it's legal for non-citizens to vote? Not many countries (any?) to my knowledge allow non-citizens to vote, so why would anyone imagine such, accidentally...seems to me if there was even the slightest question I'd ask a friend, google, whatever! I sure as heck wouldn't waltz in as an illegal immigrant or even documented visa holder etc and ask for the government to look at me trying to vote!
No way, Jose.