LaxPower Back-Up Stick

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:41 am

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 am

ggait wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:35 pm We were told by the Salted Caramel that the Abraham Accords would solve all of this.

I’m shocked that Jared did not succeed where so many other have failed.

I don’t know what the solution to this intractable problem is. But the solution definitely is not Netanyahu. That dude needed to gone years ago.

Now that's some deep strategic nonpartisan analysis from ggaslamp, especially while thousands of people (including Americans) are still at risk.

Has it occurred to you that Iran may be fomenting this to scuttle the Abraham Accords ?

Blame Kushner & Netanyahu. Genius. We should never have tried to improve things between Israel & the Arabs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/us/p ... biden.html
Blinken’s Visit to Saudi Arabia Caps U.S. Effort to Rebuild Ties

Perhaps you didn't understand that what folks objected to was not that there was a rapprochement possible between some Arab states and Israel, but rather that it was claimed to have been some sort of end to conflict in the ME...despite ignoring the Palestinian question. Huge self-congratulation as if "peace" had actually been achieved...

Fair people applauded the rapprochement, but not the green light that was given to Netanyahu to build more settlements and to abandon any efforts to address Palestinian self-determination and progress. The concern was that the "Accords" were a sort of "sports washing" over the realities festering, indeed being inflamed by the Netanyahu policies. (Personally, I think they were more than that, but the green light for settlements was a huge strategic mistake).

Likewise, rapprochement with the Saudis is obviously insufficient if the Palestinian situation is ignored.
Admirable and strategic, sure...but insufficient.

As to Iran, as noted elsewhere, there's pretty darn good reason to think they were NOT the organizers of this attack by Hamas, though it's possible. Just doesn't make sense that their primary funded group in that region, Hezbollah, does not seem to have been 'in on it'.

But sure, they're rooting for Hamas to create pain on Israel. As is Russia, for its purposes. Neither want to see the US brokered agreement between SA and Israel become reality. Both want the ME to be in chaos, Russia particularly wants the focus away from its slaughter of Ukrainians.

I doubt China has any current role in this, but we should be thinking about what it means for Taiwan and Southeast Asia in general if Russia succeeds in Ukraine because the West loses their resolve and is distracted elsewhere.

Milley was pretty darn clear on 60 Minutes on this topic.

So what makes you so "darn sure" that Iranians had nothing to do with this? I'm just as darn sure the Iranians help plan this, finance and encourage this operation. Simply to humor you, so what nation financed and supported an operation as sophisticated and complex as this? Your "sure" it couldn't have been Iran? We have a bona fide mystery here.... how did all of those rockets find their way into Gaza? We are sure it wasn't Iran and that Iran would never condone such behavior.

Read my other posts today in this thread on this topic, cradle. I already addressed why it's not terribly likely that Iran was directly involved, green lit etc...but yes, possible.

Iran is Shia and are deeply in bed therefore with Hezbollah, but not with Hamas which is Sunni. And Hezbollah does not appear to have been privy to this massive attack, wasn't prepared to take part, etc. That doesn't mean they don't have any relationship, but it's an uneasy, enemy of my enemy sort of relationship.

Of course, it's possible. So, I'm not "sure" of anything re who funded and helped organize and green lit this attack. And I never claimed to be "sure".

However, makes more sense that Qatar and Egypt were the primary sources of weapons for Hamas, though some may well be Iranian made. They DO fund Hamas.

And there's a decent chance that Russia has had a hand in all this too. They don't care about Shia v Sunni, their objectives are different.

Iran's UN Mission Says Tehran Not Involved in Hamas Attacks


https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... as-attacks



Iran's mission to the United Nations said on Sunday that Tehran was not involved in one of the bloodiest attacks in Israel's history when Islamist group Hamas killed 700 Israelis and abducted dozens more.

"The resolute measures taken by Palestine constitute a wholly legitimate defense against seven decades of oppressive occupation and heinous crimes committed by the illegitimate Zionist regime," Iran's U.N. mission said in statement.

Iran has made no secret of its backing for Hamas, funding and arming the group and another Palestinian militant organisation Islamic Jihad.

The Hamas assault on Saturday, the biggest incursion into Israel in decades, coincided with U.S.-backed moves to push Saudi Arabia towards normalising ties with Israel in return for a defence deal between Washington and Riyadh, a move that would slam the brakes on the kingdom's rapprochement with Tehran.

"We emphatically stand in unflinching support of Palestine; however, we are not involved in Palestine's response, as it is taken solely by Palestine itself," Iran's U.N. mission said.


Hamas fighters' rampage through Israeli towns on Saturday was the deadliest such incursion since Egypt and Syria's attacks in the Yom Kippur war 50 years ago and has threatened to ignite another conflagration in the long-running conflict.

Iran's U.N. mission said the "success" of the Hamas operation was because it was a surprise, which makes it the "biggest failure" of Israel's security organizations.

"They are attempting to justify their failure and attribute it to Iran's intelligence power and operational planning," Iran's U.N. mission said.

In response to the Hamas attacks, Israeli air strikes have hit housing blocks, tunnels, a mosque and homes of Hamas officials in Gaza, killing more than 400 people, including 20 children.

"They (Israel) find it very difficult to accept that in the intelligence community, it is being narrated that they were defeated by a Palestinian group," said Iran's U.N. mission.





Naturally, the pro war crowd insists Iran is guilty though they offer no proof.

If Israel will not accept a one state solution then I propose that all war profits be taxed at a 200% rate. That will take away all incentive to cause profitable wars.

If cradle's gonna try the Iran card, he should also take a look at this:

Donald Trump's Israel Intel Leak Under Scrutiny After Hamas Attack

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:49 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:32 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:41 am

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 am

ggait wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:35 pm We were told by the Salted Caramel that the Abraham Accords would solve all of this.

I’m shocked that Jared did not succeed where so many other have failed.

I don’t know what the solution to this intractable problem is. But the solution definitely is not Netanyahu. That dude needed to gone years ago.

Now that's some deep strategic nonpartisan analysis from ggaslamp, especially while thousands of people (including Americans) are still at risk.

Has it occurred to you that Iran may be fomenting this to scuttle the Abraham Accords ?

Blame Kushner & Netanyahu. Genius. We should never have tried to improve things between Israel & the Arabs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/us/p ... biden.html
Blinken’s Visit to Saudi Arabia Caps U.S. Effort to Rebuild Ties

Perhaps you didn't understand that what folks objected to was not that there was a rapprochement possible between some Arab states and Israel, but rather that it was claimed to have been some sort of end to conflict in the ME...despite ignoring the Palestinian question. Huge self-congratulation as if "peace" had actually been achieved...

Fair people applauded the rapprochement, but not the green light that was given to Netanyahu to build more settlements and to abandon any efforts to address Palestinian self-determination and progress. The concern was that the "Accords" were a sort of "sports washing" over the realities festering, indeed being inflamed by the Netanyahu policies. (Personally, I think they were more than that, but the green light for settlements was a huge strategic mistake).

Likewise, rapprochement with the Saudis is obviously insufficient if the Palestinian situation is ignored.
Admirable and strategic, sure...but insufficient.

As to Iran, as noted elsewhere, there's pretty darn good reason to think they were NOT the organizers of this attack by Hamas, though it's possible. Just doesn't make sense that their primary funded group in that region, Hezbollah, does not seem to have been 'in on it'.

But sure, they're rooting for Hamas to create pain on Israel. As is Russia, for its purposes. Neither want to see the US brokered agreement between SA and Israel become reality. Both want the ME to be in chaos, Russia particularly wants the focus away from its slaughter of Ukrainians.

I doubt China has any current role in this, but we should be thinking about what it means for Taiwan and Southeast Asia in general if Russia succeeds in Ukraine because the West loses their resolve and is distracted elsewhere.

Milley was pretty darn clear on 60 Minutes on this topic.

So what makes you so "darn sure" that Iranians had nothing to do with this? I'm just as darn sure the Iranians help plan this, finance and encourage this operation. Simply to humor you, so what nation financed and supported an operation as sophisticated and complex as this? Your "sure" it couldn't have been Iran? We have a bona fide mystery here.... how did all of those rockets find their way into Gaza? We are sure it wasn't Iran and that Iran would never condone such behavior.

Read my other posts today in this thread on this topic, cradle. I already addressed why it's not terribly likely that Iran was directly involved, green lit etc...but yes, possible.

Iran is Shia and are deeply in bed therefore with Hezbollah, but not with Hamas which is Sunni. And Hezbollah does not appear to have been privy to this massive attack, wasn't prepared to take part, etc. That doesn't mean they don't have any relationship, but it's an uneasy, enemy of my enemy sort of relationship.

Of course, it's possible. So, I'm not "sure" of anything re who funded and helped organize and green lit this attack. And I never claimed to be "sure".

However, makes more sense that Qatar and Egypt were the primary sources of weapons for Hamas, though some may well be Iranian made. They DO fund Hamas.

And there's a decent chance that Russia has had a hand in all this too. They don't care about Shia v Sunni, their objectives are different.

.... Iran is the knee jerk reaction of the MAGA types. Your analysis makes the most sense when coupled with what has really been going on politically since the Abraham Accords. Palestine and its people have become more and more maginalized and ignored. It was totally predictable that situation would not last. A number of us said it at the time. Benji and his fascist religious buddies are not and never were the solution. They will now get what they want, have wanted all along -- a lot of dead Palestinians.

The solution is reasonable leaders on both sides, but those leaders don't exist or don't hold power today and haven't for decades!!

The US should prepare to wash it's hands of Israel.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:43 pm
.... Iran is the knee jerk reaction of the MAGA types. Your analysis makes the most sense when coupled with what has really been going on politically since the Abraham Accords. Palestine and its people have become more and more maginalized and ignored. It was totally predictable that situation would not last. A number of us said it at the time. Benji and his fascist religious buddies are not and never were the solution. They will now get what they want, have wanted all along -- a lot of dead Palestinians.

The solution is reasonable leaders on both sides, but those leaders don't exist or don't hold power today and haven't for decades!!

The US should prepare to wash it's hands of Israel.

They're going to pound Gaza and everything else they can hit.

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:58 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:43 pm
.... Iran is the knee jerk reaction of the MAGA types. Your analysis makes the most sense when coupled with what has really been going on politically since the Abraham Accords. Palestine and its people have become more and more maginalized and ignored. It was totally predictable that situation would not last. A number of us said it at the time. Benji and his fascist religious buddies are not and never were the solution. They will now get what they want, have wanted all along -- a lot of dead Palestinians.

The solution is reasonable leaders on both sides, but those leaders don't exist or don't hold power today and haven't for decades!!

The US should prepare to wash it's hands of Israel.

They're going to pound Gaza and everything else they can hit.

yup, won't be pretty.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:30 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:58 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:43 pm
.... Iran is the knee jerk reaction of the MAGA types. Your analysis makes the most sense when coupled with what has really been going on politically since the Abraham Accords. Palestine and its people have become more and more maginalized and ignored. It was totally predictable that situation would not last. A number of us said it at the time. Benji and his fascist religious buddies are not and never were the solution. They will now get what they want, have wanted all along -- a lot of dead Palestinians.

The solution is reasonable leaders on both sides, but those leaders don't exist or don't hold power today and haven't for decades!!

The US should prepare to wash it's hands of Israel.

They're going to pound Gaza and everything else they can hit.

yup, won't be pretty.

I’m assuming the reason out admin is playing nice with Netanyahu is because they know he’s ready to fire bomb the Palestinians going back 15 generations out of existence. Dude is as bellicose as anyone in the world.

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:56 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:30 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:58 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:43 pm
.... Iran is the knee jerk reaction of the MAGA types. Your analysis makes the most sense when coupled with what has really been going on politically since the Abraham Accords. Palestine and its people have become more and more maginalized and ignored. It was totally predictable that situation would not last. A number of us said it at the time. Benji and his fascist religious buddies are not and never were the solution. They will now get what they want, have wanted all along -- a lot of dead Palestinians.

The solution is reasonable leaders on both sides, but those leaders don't exist or don't hold power today and haven't for decades!!

The US should prepare to wash it's hands of Israel.

They're going to pound Gaza and everything else they can hit.

yup, won't be pretty.

I’m assuming the reason out admin is playing nice with Netanyahu is because they know he’s ready to fire bomb the Palestinians going back 15 generations out of existence. Dude is as bellicose as anyone in the world.

Yup. I don't see why we support Israel at all under the current regime. I guess Joe figures it's the only way to have any moderating influence. I doubt it will work out.

Heard something incredible about Gaza. There are a large number of people who have never been out of the Strip due to the blockade.

Their entire existence spent within its boundaries. Imagine that. Never left that garden spot.

Israel has created quite an interesting problem for themselves. No way this has a less than horrific, dehumanizing end.

No way.

I fully support Israel’s right to defend itself against this malicious act of war perpetrated by Hamas.

Whether Iran played a direct role in this attack remains unclear, and I don’t think we should jump to any conclusions.

Having said that, I would not be shocked if Iran had a direct hand in starting this war. Iran is just about the only pure winner out of this conflict. Certainly Hamas will not be a winner. There is no way Israel will ever permit Hamas to control the Gaza Strip again. And no matter how long it takes, Israel will eliminate the current leadership of Hamas. Certainly the long-suffering Palestinian people will not be the winners. Their plight will only worsen at the hands of PM Netanyahu, who now has virtual carte blanche to attack the 2 million people of the Gaza Strip.

No, for the direct combatants, including the Israelis, this catastrophic war will not have any “winners.”

The only winner, at least in the short run, will be Iran. One thing Iran wanted to stop at all costs was formal diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Israel and Saudi Arabia were close to a deal, and that deal is at least temporarily off the table.

The escalating events in Israel this weekend will have cascading effects on its foreign policy and, in turn, the entire Middle East. The Israeli government had previously been talking with Saudi Arabia about normalizing diplomatic relations. The deal would have been an historic achievement by two of the region’s major power players, both American allies, after decades of estrangement that bordered on hostility.

However, after Hamas’s recent terrorist attacks and Israel’s subsequent declaration of war, that agreement “is for now off the table,” according to Ian Bremmer, president and founder of the geopolitical consulting firm Eurasia Group.

https://fortune.com/2023/10/09/israel-p ... tacks/amp/

The timing of this war could not have been an accident. And I certainly don’t buy the notion it was in commemoration of the 50-year anniversary of a war that most Palestinians were not around to remember and that resulted (ultimately) in an Israeli victory.

I don’t know for sure whether Iran played a direct role in instigating this war, but I would not be surprised if that turned out to be the case. Iran is, so far, the only clear winner from this horrible war.

DocBarrister

Seems the common theme in recent reporting, is that Iran intentionally poked the bear. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67039975

DocBarrister,

I would not be shocked if Iran had a direct hand in starting this war. Iran is just about the only pure winner out of this conflict.

What makes you believe Iran may have possibly had a hand in this?

How is Iran a "winner" since Israel will increase its propaganda campaign to instigate its pro war lap dogs in Washington, DC to supply more weapons, more money, and cause more blockades of Iran if it could ever be proven.

Knowing how readily the Europeans are so eager to fall in line with anything dictated to them by their puppet string masters in Washington, DC, this would lead to further boycotts of Iran thereby undermining its economy. How, then, does Iran benefit from further conflict???


Please be very specific in your reply.

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:49 pm Iran is, so far, the only clear winner from this horrible war.

Russia

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 5:14 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:49 pm Iran is, so far, the only clear winner from this horrible war.

Russia

... certainly a nice diversion. US republiCONs, certainly a nice diversion from the "stupid house republiCON" media story. You can think of a lot of people who will win something. People want to go with external conspiracy theories, when there is enough going on, on the ground in Israel to explain it. Hamas did not want Israel and Saudis to make friends any more than Iran did. It was bad news for them with or without the Iranians.

Most probable role Iran is playing, is the same as the US, supplying weapons and money. Hamas didn't need any help with strategy or tactics planning -- they are the experts on their home ground. Bibi and his buddies will be short term winners, they are getting what they want -- having their military cut free to slaughter Palestinians and diverts from his legal problems and push back on the domestic front. Personally Bibi has got to feel better about his current position, compared to last week.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:01 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 5:14 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:49 pm Iran is, so far, the only clear winner from this horrible war.

Russia

... certainly a nice diversion. US republiCONs, certainly a nice diversion from the "stupid house republiCON" media story. You can think of a lot of people who will win something. People want to go with external conspiracy theories, when there is enough going on, on the ground in Israel to explain it. Hamas did not want Israel and Saudis to make friends any more than Iran did. It was bad news for them with or without the Iranians.

Most probable role Iran is playing, is the same as the US, supplying weapons and money. Hamas didn't need any help with strategy or tactics planning -- they are the experts on their home ground. Bibi and his buddies will be short term winners, they are getting what they want -- having their military cut free to slaughter Palestinians and diverts from his legal problems and push back on the domestic front. Personally Bibi has got to feel better about his current position, compared to last week.

Not sure Russia comes out a winner in this. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a bipartisan package emerge in the Senate that combines military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine and Israel in a single bill.

DocBarrister

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:31 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:01 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 5:14 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:49 pm Iran is, so far, the only clear winner from this horrible war.

Russia

... certainly a nice diversion. US republiCONs, certainly a nice diversion from the "stupid house republiCON" media story. You can think of a lot of people who will win something. People want to go with external conspiracy theories, when there is enough going on, on the ground in Israel to explain it. Hamas did not want Israel and Saudis to make friends any more than Iran did. It was bad news for them with or without the Iranians.

Most probable role Iran is playing, is the same as the US, supplying weapons and money. Hamas didn't need any help with strategy or tactics planning -- they are the experts on their home ground. Bibi and his buddies will be short term winners, they are getting what they want -- having their military cut free to slaughter Palestinians and diverts from his legal problems and push back on the domestic front. Personally Bibi has got to feel better about his current position, compared to last week.

Not sure Russia comes out a winner in this. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a bipartisan package emerge in the Senate that combines military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine and Israel in a single bill.

DocBarrister

... hopefully that is the way it plays out.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:36 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:31 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 6:01 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 5:14 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:49 pm Iran is, so far, the only clear winner from this horrible war.

Russia

... certainly a nice diversion. US republiCONs, certainly a nice diversion from the "stupid house republiCON" media story. You can think of a lot of people who will win something. People want to go with external conspiracy theories, when there is enough going on, on the ground in Israel to explain it. Hamas did not want Israel and Saudis to make friends any more than Iran did. It was bad news for them with or without the Iranians.

Most probable role Iran is playing, is the same as the US, supplying weapons and money. Hamas didn't need any help with strategy or tactics planning -- they are the experts on their home ground. Bibi and his buddies will be short term winners, they are getting what they want -- having their military cut free to slaughter Palestinians and diverts from his legal problems and push back on the domestic front. Personally Bibi has got to feel better about his current position, compared to last week.

Not sure Russia comes out a winner in this. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a bipartisan package emerge in the Senate that combines military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine and Israel in a single bill.

DocBarrister

... hopefully that is the way it plays out.

What, if any moves, does China make with conflicts in Ukraine and Gaza? Lots of distractions.

Does anybody have an answer for why they feel that Iran stands to benefit from any of this?

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:12 pm Does anybody have an answer for why they feel that Iran stands to benefit from any of this?

You mean other than preventing (for now) the normalization of diplomatic relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia, mostly likely followed by normalization with other Arab nations?

Ya know, that’s kind of a big thing … arguably bigger than the Camp David Peace Accords.

Such a normalization of diplomatic relations would have basically united Israel and much of the Arab world against their common adversary … Iran.

You don’t think preventing that, even temporarily, is a benefit to Iran?





DocBarrister

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 4:00 pm

Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:56 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 3:30 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:58 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 2:43 pm
.... Iran is the knee jerk reaction of the MAGA types. Your analysis makes the most sense when coupled with what has really been going on politically since the Abraham Accords. Palestine and its people have become more and more maginalized and ignored. It was totally predictable that situation would not last. A number of us said it at the time. Benji and his fascist religious buddies are not and never were the solution. They will now get what they want, have wanted all along -- a lot of dead Palestinians.

The solution is reasonable leaders on both sides, but those leaders don't exist or don't hold power today and haven't for decades!!

The US should prepare to wash it's hands of Israel.

They're going to pound Gaza and everything else they can hit.

yup, won't be pretty.

I’m assuming the reason out admin is playing nice with Netanyahu is because they know he’s ready to fire bomb the Palestinians going back 15 generations out of existence. Dude is as bellicose as anyone in the world.

Yup. I don't see why we support Israel at all under the current regime. I guess Joe figures it's the only way to have any moderating influence. I doubt it will work out.

I mean if they feel like their caged animals with no friends in the world and already rabid, how would you think us walking from them now would end up in their reaction? Netanyahu is a flat out maniac but he can be managed unlike Putin or some of these other cats .