Trump's Russian Collusion

[Trinity]

Trump’s Surrender Tour tops them all.

[tech37]

Splitting hairs again, tech? Fine.

I wouldn't want to see any president, let alone Trump, impeached for this sort of indiscretion

There. Direct quote. Every word is yours. This is your view, and your stake in the ground.

My words, your interpretation...now stop, you're insane and you're making me insane. Plus school's out, gotta get my kid...

Fixed it a fan

[a fan]

Your, not you're. (kidding)

[Peter Brown]

Your, not you're. (kidding)

speech nazi

[ggait]

I agree PB. Some people worry that Trump has started some sort of downhill slide and succeeding POTUSs will be worse. I don't see that at all...he's an aberration.

Trump hopefully/probably is an aberration. And despite his frontal assault, the institutions so far are holding up to the stress test.

The more troubling question is whether we can dial back the over-the-top negative partisanship and tribalism. That pre-dated Trump and will survive him too. It does make the country basically ungovernable. Trump's contribution may ultimately be that he caused that intensely negative partisan divide to be laid out so obviously.

Look at Bandito's posts from earlier today as exhibit A. He's roasting me as a Hillary loving liberal fool that he just hates. As long time posters on here know, I'm a swing voter who happily voted for Romney. IIRC in 2014 I voted for R Corey Gardner over incumbent D Mark Udall -- I didn't like Udall much and I do like to support somewhat reasonable Republicans when I can. When posting, I try to back up my opinions with facts and data rather than talking points. But the data says there's hardly anyone like me out there any more.

Again, I'd point you to the eye popping numbers in that PRRI survey the other day. 82% of Reps think the Dems have been taken over by socialists. 80% of Dems think the Reps have been taken over by racists. 40% of Dem and Rep parents would be alarmed if one of their kids married a person from the other party; that number used to be 5%.

Politics is now tightly bundled up with identity -- race, class, religion, culture. It was not that way even just a short time ago. Reagan won 49 states in 1984. If Jesus ran against Hitler in 2020, no way Jesus would win 49 states. Basically, Hatfields vs. McCoys where facts, reason, expertise just don't matter. Just seething hatred of the other -- which is how Bandito sees me.

Pretty depressing. And I don't think Trump's inevitable passing will change it.

[MDlaxfan76]

You think this secret star chamber, with no due process or rights for the accused is a PR winner ?

TBD. Right now, if you believe the polls, it seems to be. Long way to go, of course. Seems clear he will be impeached by the House, but acquitted in the Senate. I think it is way too early to know how this will impact the 2020 election. Trump will certainly claim he is exonerated if he is acquitted in the Senate. His base will believe that, but will the independent swing voters? My sense is the impeachment will hurt him. The question is by how much?

Agreed. No way you will get something like 20 republican Senators to vote for removal. From my perspective this is about doing what is right. Seeing wrong and calling it out. The latest polling continues to see a rise in independents in favor of both impeachment and removal. This is the battle for the last remaining voters who's minds can be changed.

The "with no due process" BS is a dog that won't hunt. It is clear and should be clear to anyone not blind that once public hearings begin no one will care about this phase of the investigation. Either the democrats will have a case or they won't. If they have one, they win and will be rewarded. If they don't have one, they lose and will be punished. All else is just whining.

The only aspect of your post that I'd question is the meaning of "win". If you mean that majority of people will believe that impeachment was righteous rather than partisan, perhaps.

If you mean that Trump will be convicted in the senate, that may prove a bridge too far, regardless of the overwhelming evidence of the case.

Not unlike trials in our history in the south of very obvious killers of a black man, nevertheless acquitted by an all white male jury.

Already stated that I do not believe there is any chance of conviction, but that is not the real goal.

Agreed; getting to the majority believing "righteous not partisan" would be a victory.
Post Taylor's testimony, it seems really difficult for any rational, informed person not to see it as "righteous" but then again, we live in strange times.

When this goes to open sessions rather than closed, it will be quite interesting.
Will R's really try to dirty these serious folks up??? Will that not create a backlash???
What happens when Bolton, no shrinking violet, lets rip?

[Trinity]

Turns out, these guys were not that bright and things got out of hand.

[a fan]

I agree PB. Some people worry that Trump has started some sort of downhill slide and succeeding POTUSs will be worse. I don't see that at all...he's an aberration.

Trump hopefully/probably is an aberration. And despite his frontal assault, the institutions so far are holding up to the stress test.

The more troubling question is whether we can dial back the over-the-top negative partisanship and tribalism. That pre-dated Trump and will survive him too. It does make the country basically ungovernable. Trump's contribution may ultimately be that he caused that intensely negative partisan divide to be laid out so obviously.

Look at Bandito's posts from earlier today as exhibit A. He's roasting me as a Hillary loving liberal fool that he just hates. As long time posters on here know, I'm a swing voter who happily voted for Romney. IIRC in 2014 I voted for R Corey Gardner over incumbent D Mark Udall -- I didn't like Udall much and I do like to support somewhat reasonable Republicans when I can. When posting, I try to back up my opinions with facts and data rather than talking points. But the data says there's hardly anyone like me out there any more.

Again, I'd point you to the eye popping numbers in that PRRI survey the other day. 82% of Reps think the Dems have been taken over by socialists. 80% of Dems think the Reps have been taken over by racists. 40% of Dem and Rep parents would be alarmed if one of their kids married a person from the other party; that number used to be 5%.

Politics is now tightly bundled up with identity -- race, class, religion, culture. It was not that way even just a short time ago. Reagan won 49 states in 1984. If Jesus ran against Hitler in 2020, no way Jesus would win 49 states. Basically, Hatfields vs. McCoys where facts, reason, expertise just don't matter. Just seething hatred of the other -- which is how Bandito sees me.

Pretty depressing. And I don't think Trump's inevitable passing will change it.

Hear, hear!

They don't seem to get that Trump is a symptom of partisanship, rather than some aberration. Our partisan environment yielded Trump.

And that partisanship is getting worse by the day.

[seacoaster]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

The strategy appears to be not to fight the merits of the allegations (and no one wonders why this is). Instead, the "strategy" seems to be make a circus out of the notion that the Democrats on the HSCI are engaged in an un-American star chamber. Again, Republicans relying on their efforts to misinform, and their minions to advance the misinformation as much and as widely as possible.

[RedFromMI]

Why Congress Might Impeach Trump and Actually Remove Him From Office
By Jonathan Chait

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/ ... e-him.html

Interesting read - he makes a parallel with the Joe Pesci character in Casino...

[MDlaxfan76]

Turns out, these guys were not that bright and things got out of hand.

ego, hubris.

[RedFromMI]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

The strategy appears to be not to fight the merits of the allegations (and no one wonders why this is). Instead, the "strategy" seems to be make a circus out of the notion that the Democrats on the HSCI are engaged in an un-American star chamber. Again, Republicans relying on their efforts to misinform, and their minions to advance the misinformation as much and as widely as possible.

When you have no ability to fight the facts you fight in this case about the "process." Never mind that there are Rs in the SCIF as well with both ability to ask questions and hear all the answers. Just limited to the Rs on the appropriate committee.

Also, because the protest/occupation let by Gaetz, unsecure cell phones were brought into the chamber. Huge security violation which will require a sweep of the room and its equipment... At least one member was apparently using his cell phone to live stream the event. Not that long ago in the past a young navy sailor was prosecuted for taking pictures of a secure area on a submarine...

[seacoaster]

Why Congress Might Impeach Trump and Actually Remove Him From Office
By Jonathan Chait

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/ ... e-him.html

Interesting read - he makes a parallel with the Joe Pesci character in Casino...

Thanks for this. I think murf posted it last night here as well. Here is an interesting passage:

"Yet for all his typical disingenuous smarm, denouncing the process in the other chamber is much weaker brew than defending Trump’s conduct, which he has largely failed to do. Indeed, McConnell’s argument opens the door to finding guilt through a “fair” process McConnell runs. Even the sycophantic Lindsey Graham left the door open more than a crack when asked by Jonathan Swan if he could imagine voting to convict. “Sure. I mean … show me something that … is a crime,” he said. “If you could show me that, you know, Trump actually was engaging in a quid pro quo, outside the phone call, that would be very disturbing.” A “very well-connected Republican in Washington” estimated to Chris Wallace that there is a 20 percent chance the Senate votes for removal."

So far, the humbug is about the process. And Graham is the human embodiment of a goalpost that just will not stay still for the kick.

[wahoomurf]

The solipsist-in-chief has cut both the State Department AND the Pentagon, out of inclusion in the process of Governing the United States.

not to overly pick nits, but I don't believe the State Department or the Pentagon are SUPPOSED to be part of governing the United States:?

Last I checked, they are supposed to operate under the direction of the president of the United States, who along with Congress, is supposed to govern the United States....

You make an excellent point. Call me naive and/or dumber than Trump. Poor wording on my part. I went to a cow college in the south. As such, I admit my education may have left me lacking the proper communication skills so necessary to scribe cogent posts on various blogs.

I always thought the State Department and the Pentagon were in existence to offer input & opinions to the POTUS to ASSIST HIM in making decisions that benefit ALL the PEOPLE of the United States of America as well as our ALLIES throughout the world. Of course, under the clear and astute direction of whoever is President of the United States of America.

Time for me to re-check the Constitution.

Thanks for the heads up.

[ggait]

NY Times: "Ukraine Knew of Aid Freeze by Early August. Top officials were told in early August about the delay of $391 million in security assistance, undercutting a chief argument President Trump has used to deny any quid pro quo."

Fox News working on the next excuse, now that this one has gone up in smoke:

Fox & Friends co-host Ainsley Earhardt insisted that “if every single person who has gone behind closed doors and not one of them has said that Ukraine knew that they were holding up aid, then there is no quid pro quo.”

Earhardt also paraphrased a GOP congressman’s insistence that “there has not been one person who said that Ukraine knew that the money was being delayed, so therefore there is no quid pro quo."

Fox & Friends co-host Steve Doocy insisted that “nobody has said that the Ukrainians knew that U.S. aid was withheld,” and therefore, “you can’t have quid pro quo without the quo.”

Fox News anchor Martha MacCallum said that because Ukraine “didn’t know that the military aid had had a pause on it, it makes it difficult” to conclude that there was a quid pro quo.

On Hannity, Fox contributor Sara Carter said that there’s “absolutely no quid pro quo” because the Ukrainian president “had no idea that any military aid was being withheld.”

On her Fox show, host Laura Ingraham said that “Ukrainian leaders didn’t even know that aid was being withheld.”

Fox’s Deroy Murdock said that Ukrainian officials “never knew the military aid was delayed,” adding, “You can’t have a quid pro quo unless the person knows ‘OK, he’s holding back something I want.’”

[a fan]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

The strategy appears to be not to fight the merits of the allegations (and no one wonders why this is). Instead, the "strategy" seems to be make a circus out of the notion that the Democrats on the HSCI are engaged in an un-American star chamber. Again, Republicans relying on their efforts to misinform, and their minions to advance the misinformation as much and as widely as possible.

It works. Flawlessly. It's like dealing with Putin. Misdirection. Misinformation. Look over there, a squirrel.

You've literally got Trump fans not believing what Trump himself said.

Look at this very thread. You've got posters playing ontological games about the whether what Trump said, verbatim, "is open to subjective interpretation"....suddenly everyone is Hegel, and we're debating whether or not words have meaning, or if there are alternate universes.

Anything they can come up with to "prove" what Trump did or said is some nebulous, unfathomable utterance.

Uh. No. He said what he did on live TV. There is no grey here. Just stop.

[dislaxxic]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

The strategy appears to be not to fight the merits of the allegations (and no one wonders why this is). Instead, the "strategy" seems to be make a circus out of the notion that the Democrats on the HSCI are engaged in an un-American star chamber. Again, Republicans relying on their efforts to misinform, and their minions to advance the misinformation as much and as widely as possible.

So...Republicans and their minions are relying on...wait for it...

FAKE NEWS

There's a first...

psst: Don't tell Bandidiot

[CU88]

Anyone remember the grief these citizens took for "protesting" Congress on the proposed reforms to ADA?

Demonstrators interrupting a hearing in the House Rules Committee to protest reforms to the Americans with Disabilities Act were arrested and dragged out of the room inside the US Capitol on Tuesday.

Several protesters who require wheelchairs were forcibly removed from the hearing room just outside the House chamber.

https://www.businessinsider.com/wheelch ... ing-2018-2

Imagine if these people had crashed a secured hearing room. They would have been shot!

[Trinity]

Matt Gaetz Hoople Army ordering pizza and beer from the SCIF. Don’t let them drive home. God forbid this woman from DoD gets to testify in front of a bipartisan committee.

[dislaxxic]

The ways in which Shrub Bush and President Cheney prosecuted the so-called GWOT constituted some terrible precedent that Congress more or less looked away from. From warrantless wiretapping to torture to drone warfare and beyond, attitudes about these things in our IC have, regrettably, been carried over into present day activities...and could arguably be pointed to for some citizen's fears about a sinister Deep State out there somewhere. To say that the Trump Effects we see infecting our body politic will disappear when he does may be a bit of a stretch...sadly.

..