Page 38 of 191

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:35 pm
by ggait
We were told by the Salted Caramel that the Abraham Accords would solve all of this.

I’m shocked that Jared did not succeed where so many other have failed.

I don’t know what the solution to this intractable problem is. But the solution definitely is not Netanyahu. That dude needed to gone years ago.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:36 pm
by Brooklyn
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:44 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:00 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:24 pm I just saw a news report on tv which shows Biden has ordered American naval vessels into the region. Don't know why the 🅵***** he's doing that since none of that 🆂***** is any of our g*ժժ@mn business.
News I read says to support relocation of Americans in Israel.
Right. Relatively routine and prudent action by our government. And the notion that we should do ostrich act is just stupid.

Yeah, you're right. We need to invade Israel to defend Palestinians against the continued occupation by the IDF just like we did when Saddam invaded Kuwait or when North Korea invaded South Korea, or when North Vietnam supposedly invaded South Vietnam, and as in many other scenarios.

None of these wars were any of our goddamn business as well but it sure made a lot of generous profits for the corporate elites in the military industrial complex. Radical right winger Mark Levin has said the same thing you did. Of course, he hasn't offered to sacrifice either of his two children for that as he expects you to sacrifice yours for him. I bet you only too eager to send your children there and real soon, too. Right?

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:58 pm
by MDlaxfan76
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:36 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:44 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:00 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:24 pm I just saw a news report on tv which shows Biden has ordered American naval vessels into the region. Don't know why the 🅵***** he's doing that since none of that 🆂***** is any of our g*ժժ@mn business.
News I read says to support relocation of Americans in Israel.
Right. Relatively routine and prudent action by our government. And the notion that we should do ostrich act is just stupid.

Yeah, you're right. We need to invade Israel to defend Palestinians against the continued occupation by the IDF just like we did when Saddam invaded Kuwait or when North Korea invaded South Korea, or when North Vietnam supposedly invaded South Vietnam, and as in many other scenarios.

None of these wars were any of our goddamn business as well but it sure made a lot of generous profits for the corporate elites in the military industrial complex. Radical right winger Mark Levin has said the same thing you did. Of course, he hasn't offered to sacrifice either of his two children for that as he expects you to sacrifice yours for him. I bet you only too eager to send your children there and real soon, too. Right?
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:34 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/ ... -on-israel

It is hard to see past the shock of Hamas’s bloodthirsty assault on Israel. That is because it involved thousands of rockets, and fighters attacking the south of the country by land, sea and air. And because it was completely unforeseen despite its scale, inflicting a humiliating blow against Israel’s vaunted intelligence services. But most of all because of the killing of hundreds of innocent people and the taking of scores of hostages by Hamas. As the Israel Defence Forces (idf) ponder how to respond, the world’s attention will be caught up in their desperate plight.
It is too soon to know how the next few weeks will unfold. Israel’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, has vowed to exact “a huge price” and he is right: Hamas must be made to pay for its atrocities, which include the massacre of more than 250 young Israelis at a festival in the south. But Israel’s response comes with grave risks. Sending idf ground troops into Gaza could draw them into bloody urban fighting—and endanger the hostages, too. The longer the fighting drags on, the greater the chance that violence spreads to the West Bank or Lebanon. The death of many civilians in Gaza, especially if seen as wanton, would harm Israel’s standing in the world as well as being profoundly wrong in its own terms.

However, it is not too soon to be clear that this attack marks the end of a decades-old belief in Israel that Palestinian aspirations for sovereignty could be indefinitely put aside while the rest of the Middle East forged ahead. Whatever else emerges from this conflict, one thing will be a new search for answers to the question of how Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace.
Mr Netanyahu’s policy of sidelining the Palestinians depended on three calculations, each of which has been thrown up into the air by the Hamas assault. The first is that, even if the Palestinian question was left to rot, Israelis could remain safe. As a result of the terrible casualties of the second intifada, which finished in 2005, Israel shut Palestinian populations away behind security walls. Superior intelligence and overwhelming firepower, including the Iron Dome anti-rocket system, meant that the armed threat from Palestinian fighters was manageable.

That notion now looks broken. One reason the intelligence services may have been distracted from Gaza is that the West Bank has been thrown into disarray by the expansionist aims of Israel’s far right. In southern Lebanon Hizbullah has a fearsome arsenal, much of it supplied by Iran. No doubt, Israel will be able to re-establish its military dominance over the Palestinians. But even if its soldiers and spies believe that this ensures Israeli citizens are protected, voters themselves are unlikely to conclude that a return to the status quo is good enough.

The second assumption was that the existence of Hamas helps Israel deal with Fatah, the Palestinian party that runs the West Bank. It was assumed that divide-and-rule kept the Palestinians weak and that the influence of radical factions would undermine the credibility of moderates as partners for peace—all of which suited Mr Netanyahu just fine.

With these attacks, that notion has also run its course. One reason for Hamas to strike was that divide-and-rule has created the conditions in which Fatah has become decadent and out of touch; its leader, Mahmoud Abbas, is ailing. With this assault, Hamas is claiming to be the true voice of Palestinian resistance. Inter-Palestinian rivalry was supposed to protect Israelis; it has ended up making them targets.

The third assumption was that Israel could strengthen its position in the Middle East by pursuing regional diplomacy even as it left the Palestinians to fester. That view was endorsed by the signing of the Abraham Accords between Bahrain, Israel and the United Arab Emirates in 2020—and the addition of Morocco and Sudan later. Until this weekend, it had looked as if Saudi Arabia might join, too. Eventually, it still may, but Hamas has shown that the Palestinians have a say, too.

The coming operation against Hamas will only add to the sense that the time has come for a new approach. After Saturday’s bloodshed, Israel cannot wreck Hamas only for it to remain in power in Gaza as if nothing had happened.

However, no simple alternative is on offer. The idf does not want to occupy Gaza—that is why the enclave is self-governed. The idea of an international peace-keeping force is also hard to imagine: no country wants to take on the responsibility. And yet, if the idf destroyed Hamas in Gaza and then marched back home again, who knows what destructive forces might fill the vacuum that was left behind.

Nobody should underestimate the difficulties that lie ahead. The second intifada turned young Israelis against talking to the Palestinians. This outrage will surely create a new generation of Israelis who cannot imagine how Palestinian factions could be a partner for peace. At the same time, Israel’s right-wing coalition has been focused on annexing parts of the West Bank. It will redouble these efforts.

Despite that, hard-headed Israelis will need to grapple with the fact that they must once again start to deal with the Palestinian issue. Israel’s security apparatus needs a counterparty to work with if it is to have any sway over the Palestinian territories. That means it needs a Palestinian interlocutor.

What comes next will depend greatly on who is in power in Jerusalem. For the moment, Israel is pulling together, but it will soon undergo a bitter reckoning that could yet lead to a new coalition, or even a new prime minister. If Israelis are to be safe, whoever is in charge will need to stop thinking of the Palestinians as a problem that can be shelved and start thinking of them as a people who must be engaged. ■

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:51 pm
by Brooklyn
The solution to the problem has been there all along:


The "one-state solution" refers to a resolution of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict through the creation of a unitary, federal or confederate Israeli-Palestinian state, which would encompass all of the present territory of Israel, the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and possibly the Gaza Strip and Golan Heights ...


... and all people therein


https://www.google.com/search?q=one+sta ... shm=rime/1



No one earth has any rational answer against these truths.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 1:06 am
by Brooklyn
Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses



https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/isr ... ion-abuses


Fifty years after Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip, it controls these areas through repression, institutionalized discrimination, and systematic abuses of the Palestinian population’s rights, Human Rights Watch said today.

At least five categories of major violations of international human rights law and humanitarian law characterize the occupation: unlawful killings; forced displacement; abusive detention; the closure of the Gaza Strip and other unjustified restrictions on movement; and the development of settlements, along with the accompanying discriminatory policies that disadvantage Palestinians.


Many of Israel’s abusive practices were carried out in the name of security. Palestinian armed groups have carried out scores of lethal attacks on civilians and launched thousands of rocket attacks on Israeli civilian areas, also in violation of international humanitarian law.

“Whether it’s a child imprisoned by a military court or shot unjustifiably, or a house demolished for lack of an elusive permit, or checkpoints where only settlers are allowed to pass, few Palestinians have escaped serious rights abuses during this 50-year occupation,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “Israel today maintains an entrenched system of institutionalized discrimination against Palestinians in the occupied territory – repression that extends far beyond any security rationale.”

As the occupation enters its second half-century, the focus should be on increasing the protection of the rights of the population of the occupied territory, Human Rights Watch said.

Unlawful Killings & War Crimes
Israeli troops killed well over 2,000 Palestinian civilians in the last three Gaza conflicts (2008-09, 2012, 2014) alone. Many of these attacks amount to violations of international humanitarian law due to a failure to take all feasible precautions to spare civilians. Some amount to war crimes, including the targeting of apparent civilian structures.

In the West Bank, Israeli security forces have routinely used excessive force in policing situations, killing or grievously wounding thousands of demonstrators, rock-throwers, suspected assailants, and others with live ammunition when lesser means could have averted a threat or maintained order.

Armed Palestinian groups also committed war crimes during these conflicts and at other times, including rocket attacks targeting Israeli population centers. Between the start of the first Intifada in December 1987 and the end of February 2017, attacks by Palestinians killed at least 1,079 Israeli civilians, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem.

Israeli official investigations into alleged security force abuses during the Gaza conflicts and in policing situations failed to hold the abusers accountable, with rare exceptions. Palestinian authorities have also failed to investigate violations and hold those responsible to account.

Illegal Settlements
Israeli authorities have since 1967 facilitated the transfer of its civilians to the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. In 1967, Israel established two settlements in the West Bank: Kfar Etzion and East Talpiot; by 2017, Israel had established 237 settlements there, housing approximately 580,000 settlers. Israel applies Israeli civil law to settlers, affording them legal protections, rights, and benefits that are not extended to Palestinians living in the same territory who are subjected to Israeli military law. Israel provides settlers with infrastructure, services, and subsidies that it denies to Palestinians, creating and sustaining a separate and unequal system of law, rules, and services.



Forced Displacement
Israeli authorities have expropriated thousands of acres of Palestinian land for settlements and their supporting infrastructure. Discriminatory burdens, including making it nearly impossible for Palestinians to obtain building permits in East Jerusalem and in the 60 percent of the West Bank under exclusive Israeli control (Area C), have effectively forced Palestinians to leave their homes or to build at the risk of seeing their “unauthorized” structures bulldozed. For decades, Israeli authorities have demolished homes on the grounds that they lacked permits, even though the law of occupation prohibits destruction of property except for military necessity, or punitively as collective punishment against families of Palestinians suspected of attacking Israelis.

Israel has also arbitrarily excluded hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from its population registry, restricting their ability to live in and travel from the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli authorities have justified these actions by citing general security concerns, but they have not conducted individual screenings or claimed that those excluded posed a threat themselves. Israel also revoked the residency of over 130,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and 14,565 in East Jerusalem since 1967, largely on the basis that they had been away too long.

Gaza Closure, Unjustified Movement Restrictions in West Bank
For the last 25 years, Israel has tightened restrictions on the movement of people and goods to and from the Gaza Strip in ways that far exceed any conceivable requirement of Israeli security. These restrictions affect nearly every aspect of everyday life, separating families, restricting access to medical care and educational and economic opportunities, and perpetuating unemployment and poverty. As of last year, Gaza’s GDP was 23 percent lower than in 1994. Seventy percent of Gaza’s 1.9 million people rely on humanitarian assistance.

Israel also has imposed onerous restrictions on freedom of movement in the West Bank, enforced at checkpoints within the West Bank and at its borders with Israel. Israel’s separation barrier, ostensibly solely built for security, in fact slices through the West Bank significantly more than it runs along the Green Line separating the West Bank from Israel, contrary to international humanitarian law, as confirmed by the International Court of Justice in July 2004.

Abusive Detention
Israeli authorities have incarcerated hundreds of thousands of Palestinians since 1967, the majority after trials in military courts, which have a near-100 percent conviction rate. In addition, on average, hundreds every year have been placed in administrative detention based on secret evidence without charge or trial. Some were detained or imprisoned for engaging in nonviolent activism. Israel also jails West Bank and Gaza Palestinian detainees inside Israel, creating onerous restrictions on family visits and violating international law requiring that they be held within the occupied territory. Many detainees, including children, face harsh conditions and mistreatment.

The Palestinian Authority, since its creation in 1994, and Hamas, since becoming the de facto authority in Gaza in 2007, have arbitrarily detained dissidents, tortured and mistreated detainees, and, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, executed 41 people pursuant to death sentences after flawed trials.

The law of occupation, designed to regulate the exceptional and temporary situation in which a foreign military power displaces the lawful sovereign and rules by force, grants an occupier broad but limited powers to restrict individuals and their rights to meet security needs.

However, in a prolonged occupation in which occupiers have the opportunity to develop more narrowly tailored responses to security threats, exemptions to rights protections should be reduced and the balance shifted toward respecting, protecting, and fulfilling all fundamental rights of the population. In addition, the occupier’s obligation to restore normal civilian life for the local population increases with the passage of time, as do its obligations to progressively realize the social, economic, and cultural rights of residents of the occupied territory.

After decades of failure to rein in abuses associated with the occupation, the international community should take more active measures to hold Israeli and Palestinian authorities to their obligations under international human rights and humanitarian law. Other countries and businesses should cease activities carried out inside settlements and change policies that support settlement-related activities and infrastructure, in keeping with their respective human rights responsibilities.

Governments should use their leverage to press Israel to end the generalized travel ban for Palestinians from Gaza and permit the free movement of people and goods to and from Gaza, subject to individualized security screenings and physical inspection. The International Criminal Court should open a formal investigation into serious international crimes committed in Israel and Palestine both by Israelis and Palestinians.

“Fifty years of occupation and decades of a fruitless peace process should put firmly to rest the notion that downplaying human rights will ease the path to a negotiated solution to the conflict,” Whitson said. “Concerted action for rights and accountability is urgently needed, including through the International Criminal Court.”





Right wingers on this forum always assert that Americans have 2d Amendment rights to protect themselves against enemies both foreign and domestic. I'm sure they all agree that Palestinians have that same right since they claim that they are not prejudiced. Gazans and others should be fully armed with Kalashnikovs, ATMs, Howitzers, Chinook helicopters, etc.

Everybody agrees.

Right?

After all, in order for principles to be valid they must be applied on a uniform basis. Since they apply stateside, they apply in Palestine as well. If any right winger disagrees then they invalidate everything they have stood for on these pages for all these years.

So again: everybody agrees that Palestinians should be fully armed to the teeth against the Israeli government tyrants. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:12 am
by Farfromgeneva
Strident and loud makes right. Regardless of content or context.

This is some Peter Brown/OS/Cradle loud rant pettiness that doesn’t do anything.0

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:35 am
by cradleandshoot
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:12 am Strident and loud makes right. Regardless of content or context.

This is some Peter Brown/OS/Cradle loud rant pettiness that doesn’t do anything.0
So what is your solution genius?? Is the only trick left in your bag to criticize others. A whole world of chit is about to come crashing down. If someone doesn't shout loud enough ignorant people will not hear anything. You need to " THINK OUT OF THE BOX " dude. :roll: How exactly do you think this mess will end??

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:38 am
by old salt
Kismet wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:36 am Hamas is SUNNI and are not aligned with Tehran, in fact, they hate Shiites on an equal if not greater level than Jews. Their weapons originate through the Qataris and Egyptians.
https://www.google.com/search?q=iran+su ... nt=gws-wiz

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 am
by old salt
ggait wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:35 pm We were told by the Salted Caramel that the Abraham Accords would solve all of this.

I’m shocked that Jared did not succeed where so many other have failed.

I don’t know what the solution to this intractable problem is. But the solution definitely is not Netanyahu. That dude needed to gone years ago.
Now that's some deep strategic nonpartisan analysis from ggaslamp, especially while thousands of people (including Americans) are still at risk.

Has it occurred to you that Iran may be fomenting this to scuttle the Abraham Accords ?

Blame Kushner & Netanyahu. Genius. We should never have tried to improve things between Israel & the Arabs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/us/p ... biden.html
Blinken’s Visit to Saudi Arabia Caps U.S. Effort to Rebuild Ties

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:12 am
by old salt
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:12 am Strident and loud makes right. Regardless of content or context.

This is some Peter Brown/OS/Cradle loud rant pettiness that doesn’t do anything.0
What ??? I've said little to nothing on this. Check your word count.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:16 am
by Farfromgeneva
General behavior. I thought such a 4D chess mind like yours would understand this. Repeating the same thing over, more adamant, ignoring anything anyone else might share including incontrovertible facts. Beyond reason and in that zone of acolytes.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:54 am
by Kismet
old salt wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:38 am
Kismet wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:36 am Hamas is SUNNI and are not aligned with Tehran, in fact, they hate Shiites on an equal if not greater level than Jews. Their weapons originate through the Qataris and Egyptians.
https://www.google.com/search?q=iran+su ... nt=gws-wiz
I'll stand corrected. TY

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:59 am
by Kismet
old salt wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 am Now that's some deep strategic nonpartisan analysis from ggaslamp, especially while thousands of people (including Americans) are still at risk.
You complain about others using perjoratives on you and then hypocritically turn around and do the exact same thing. :oops:

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:32 am
by PizzaSnake
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:35 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:12 am Strident and loud makes right. Regardless of content or context.

This is some Peter Brown/OS/Cradle loud rant pettiness that doesn’t do anything.0
So what is your solution genius?? Is the only trick left in your bag to criticize others. A whole world of chit is about to come crashing down. If someone doesn't shout loud enough ignorant people will not hear anything. You need to " THINK OUT OF THE BOX " dude. :roll: How exactly do you think this mess will end??
As long as there are humans with grievances, and others willing to arm them, it won’t.

So, the question is, is it possible for the Palestinian grievances to dissipate? ‘Cause we all know someone, somewhere is willing to exploit it for their ends.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:01 am
by Farfromgeneva
PizzaSnake wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:32 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:35 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:12 am Strident and loud makes right. Regardless of content or context.

This is some Peter Brown/OS/Cradle loud rant pettiness that doesn’t do anything.0
So what is your solution genius?? Is the only trick left in your bag to criticize others. A whole world of chit is about to come crashing down. If someone doesn't shout loud enough ignorant people will not hear anything. You need to " THINK OUT OF THE BOX " dude. :roll: How exactly do you think this mess will end??
As long as there are humans with grievances, and others willing to arm them, it won’t.

So, the question is, is it possible for the Palestinian grievances to dissipate? ‘Cause we all know someone, somewhere is willing to exploit it for their ends.
I mean I can’t think like that dude so I’m a lost cause clearly. Not like being the first person ever to get a rating agency to allow credit for lease income from a strip club in CMBS history. (Ricks cabaret on street level of mixed use asset on the Vegas strip but still they always threw out sin binned cash flows as too unstable for a fixed ten year period up to that point). Bifurcated and repackaged deep out of the money IP assets. Getting banks to invest in Combination Notes which is a re-remic of CLO binds from BBB- rates to the residual equity tranche then hyper amortize they principal balance which drives at “ratings only” (no analysis of return or recovery rate simply probability of timely repayment of principal which allows an investment grade rating on these highly illiquid bonds) ratings agency arbitrage play used previously by Insurers and literally forced the hand to change regulation and capital treatment for those Securities because I had done too good a job convincing regional and community banks they suck at cash flow business lending so taking a vertical slice of a portfolio of syndicated loans was a bette risk management and earning asset tool (problem is final cash flow payment certainty and how to split the IRR into coupon and spread monthly). Bought hash from a teenage waiter on a rooftop in Istanbul overlooking the Hippodrome (land of Midnight Express). Surfed in western Ireland, Kerry country in November which was not cool (but cold). I set up shop outside the box long ago just play inside of it to earn a living. The guy in WNY who hasn’t left and carries 40yr old understanding of the world while mad at playing by the rules of the system is the outside the box thinker man!

But the answer to how does it end is simple.

Ending: https://youtu.be/mi7hkvwlwkY?si=Zcj3V98M4focOVas

Full video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yeoggnNIg64

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:03 am
by Brooklyn
2d Amendment rights for all Palestinians


Well forum right wingers, let's see your endorsement of this idea.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:19 am
by MDlaxfan76
Kismet wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:54 am
old salt wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:38 am
Kismet wrote: Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:36 am Hamas is SUNNI and are not aligned with Tehran, in fact, they hate Shiites on an equal if not greater level than Jews. Their weapons originate through the Qataris and Egyptians.
https://www.google.com/search?q=iran+su ... nt=gws-wiz
I'll stand corrected. TY
It's indeed an interesting question, given that Iran is definitely aligned with Hezbollah. Shia.
And so far, they're just lobbing a few missiles in as a sign of "solidarity"...if this was truly coordinated with Iran, Hezbollah does not seem to have been 'in on it', else they'd have attacked as well.

I thought that Iran and Hamas were not directly connected, but this could be the enemy of my enemy level of support. Hezbollah is "linked" with Hamas, and yet the Shia v Sunni issue is real...again, enemy of my enemy?

But makes more sense Egypt and Qatar.
And Russia, who doesn't care at all about Sunni and Shia.
Just want chaos and diversion from Ukraine.
And they don't want the Saudi-Israel agreement as sponsored by the US.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:41 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 am
ggait wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:35 pm We were told by the Salted Caramel that the Abraham Accords would solve all of this.

I’m shocked that Jared did not succeed where so many other have failed.

I don’t know what the solution to this intractable problem is. But the solution definitely is not Netanyahu. That dude needed to gone years ago.
Now that's some deep strategic nonpartisan analysis from ggaslamp, especially while thousands of people (including Americans) are still at risk.

Has it occurred to you that Iran may be fomenting this to scuttle the Abraham Accords ?

Blame Kushner & Netanyahu. Genius. We should never have tried to improve things between Israel & the Arabs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/us/p ... biden.html
Blinken’s Visit to Saudi Arabia Caps U.S. Effort to Rebuild Ties
Perhaps you didn't understand that what folks objected to was not that there was a rapprochement possible between some Arab states and Israel, but rather that it was claimed to have been some sort of end to conflict in the ME...despite ignoring the Palestinian question. Huge self-congratulation as if "peace" had actually been achieved...

Fair people applauded the rapprochement, but not the green light that was given to Netanyahu to build more settlements and to abandon any efforts to address Palestinian self-determination and progress. The concern was that the "Accords" were a sort of "sports washing" over the realities festering, indeed being inflamed by the Netanyahu policies. (Personally, I think they were more than that, but the green light for settlements was a huge strategic mistake).

Likewise, rapprochement with the Saudis is obviously insufficient if the Palestinian situation is ignored.
Admirable and strategic, sure...but insufficient.

As to Iran, as noted elsewhere, there's pretty darn good reason to think they were NOT the organizers of this attack by Hamas, though it's possible. Just doesn't make sense that their primary funded group in that region, Hezbollah, does not seem to have been 'in on it'.

But sure, they're rooting for Hamas to create pain on Israel. As is Russia, for its purposes. Neither want to see the US brokered agreement between SA and Israel become reality. Both want the ME to be in chaos, Russia particularly wants the focus away from its slaughter of Ukrainians.

I doubt China has any current role in this, but we should be thinking about what it means for Taiwan and Southeast Asia in general if Russia succeeds in Ukraine because the West loses their resolve and is distracted elsewhere.

Milley was pretty darn clear on 60 Minutes on this topic.

Re: Israel and Zionism

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2023 12:32 pm
by cradleandshoot
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 11:41 am
old salt wrote: Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 am
ggait wrote: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:35 pm We were told by the Salted Caramel that the Abraham Accords would solve all of this.

I’m shocked that Jared did not succeed where so many other have failed.

I don’t know what the solution to this intractable problem is. But the solution definitely is not Netanyahu. That dude needed to gone years ago.
Now that's some deep strategic nonpartisan analysis from ggaslamp, especially while thousands of people (including Americans) are still at risk.

Has it occurred to you that Iran may be fomenting this to scuttle the Abraham Accords ?

Blame Kushner & Netanyahu. Genius. We should never have tried to improve things between Israel & the Arabs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/us/p ... biden.html
Blinken’s Visit to Saudi Arabia Caps U.S. Effort to Rebuild Ties
Perhaps you didn't understand that what folks objected to was not that there was a rapprochement possible between some Arab states and Israel, but rather that it was claimed to have been some sort of end to conflict in the ME...despite ignoring the Palestinian question. Huge self-congratulation as if "peace" had actually been achieved...

Fair people applauded the rapprochement, but not the green light that was given to Netanyahu to build more settlements and to abandon any efforts to address Palestinian self-determination and progress. The concern was that the "Accords" were a sort of "sports washing" over the realities festering, indeed being inflamed by the Netanyahu policies. (Personally, I think they were more than that, but the green light for settlements was a huge strategic mistake).

Likewise, rapprochement with the Saudis is obviously insufficient if the Palestinian situation is ignored.
Admirable and strategic, sure...but insufficient.

As to Iran, as noted elsewhere, there's pretty darn good reason to think they were NOT the organizers of this attack by Hamas, though it's possible. Just doesn't make sense that their primary funded group in that region, Hezbollah, does not seem to have been 'in on it'.

But sure, they're rooting for Hamas to create pain on Israel. As is Russia, for its purposes. Neither want to see the US brokered agreement between SA and Israel become reality. Both want the ME to be in chaos, Russia particularly wants the focus away from its slaughter of Ukrainians.

I doubt China has any current role in this, but we should be thinking about what it means for Taiwan and Southeast Asia in general if Russia succeeds in Ukraine because the West loses their resolve and is distracted elsewhere.

Milley was pretty darn clear on 60 Minutes on this topic.
So what makes you so "darn sure" that Iranians had nothing to do with this? I'm just as darn sure the Iranians help plan this, finance and encourage this operation. Simply to humor you, so what nation financed and supported an operation as sophisticated and complex as this? Your "sure" it couldn't have been Iran? We have a bona fide mystery here.... how did all of those rockets find their way into Gaza? We are sure it wasn't Iran and that Iran would never condone such behavior.