LaxPower Back-Up Stick

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:26 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:16 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:06 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm

I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.

yes, you do.

Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.

And, others will indeed call you out.

In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.

Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?

The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.

Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?

yes, that first was a particularly hyperbolic response to your posts on the topic.

Okay, I'll play. Where's the substance? That Ukraine, after being attacked, should concede some of their territory that was recognized and affirmed by multiple nations, including, but not limited to, the US and Russia? That defending their health and energy infrastructure from ship-launched missiles is provocative? These positions are so risible they beggar belief.

I have serious doubts about the US military after this demonstration of substance from a former service member. OS, didn't you ever learn the law of holes? You know, when you're in a hole, stop digging.

But to level set this substantive discussion:

1. Is the Russian invasion and commission of multiple acts of rape, murder, and property destruction acceptable to you?
2. What limits are there on Ukraine in defending its territory and people?
3. What gives the US (and its citizens) a "vote" in any of this?

I've already expressed my opinion on this. No need to start over & rehash.

I'm arguing based on the way things are, not how we wished they were.
Russia's playing by their rules, not ours. Right or wrong (from our perspective) will have limited influence on the outcome.
imho, I believe that prolonging this war is not worth the further death & destruction it will bring.
Ukraine's survival & independence is assured. We should push for a cease fire, frozen conflict & negotiated settlement,
rather than an open ended commitment to finance this war with a US blank check.

Why do you keep proposing something that Putin will never accept?

Putin will not stop this war until Russia is militarily and economically castrated and Putin has no choice but to end it.

That’s why this war must continue until it is Putin who is forced to sue for peace.

It is one of many tragedies of this cruel and inhumane war that Russia is inflicting on Ukraine … the only path to peace is the destruction of Russia’s military.

The sooner we get that task done, the sooner this deplorable war comes to an end.

DocBarrister

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:26 pm
We need to offer Putin a face saving off ramp that ends the fighting asap & keeps the energy & grain flowing, before winter impacts them all.
If Ukraine does not approve, they can continue without US aid. NATO won't continue adequate military support if the US doesn't. This is what France & Germany really want anyway. The other's will fall in line. Prolonging this war makes it a war of choice by the US.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:26 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:12 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:26 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:16 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:06 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm

I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.

yes, you do.

Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.

And, others will indeed call you out.

In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.

Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?

The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.

Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?

yes, that first was a particularly hyperbolic response to your posts on the topic.

Okay, I'll play. Where's the substance? That Ukraine, after being attacked, should concede some of their territory that was recognized and affirmed by multiple nations, including, but not limited to, the US and Russia? That defending their health and energy infrastructure from ship-launched missiles is provocative? These positions are so risible they beggar belief.

I have serious doubts about the US military after this demonstration of substance from a former service member. OS, didn't you ever learn the law of holes? You know, when you're in a hole, stop digging.

But to level set this substantive discussion:

1. Is the Russian invasion and commission of multiple acts of rape, murder, and property destruction acceptable to you?
2. What limits are there on Ukraine in defending its territory and people?
3. What gives the US (and its citizens) a "vote" in any of this?

I've already expressed my opinion on this. No need to start over & rehash.

I'm arguing based on the way things are, not how we wished they were.
Russia's playing by their rules, not ours. Right or wrong (from our perspective) will have limited influence on the outcome.
imho, I believe that prolonging this war is not worth the further death & destruction it will bring.
Ukraine's survival & independence is assured. We should push for a cease fire, frozen conflict & negotiated settlement,
rather than an open ended commitment to finance this war with a US blank check.

Why do you keep proposing something that Putin will never accept?

Putin will not stop this war until Russia is militarily and economically castrated and Putin has no choice but to end it.

That’s why this war must continue until it is Putin who is forced to sue for peace.

It is one of many tragedies of this cruel and inhumane war that Russia is inflicting on Ukraine … the only path to peace is the destruction of Russia’s military.

The sooner we get that task done, the sooner this deplorable war comes to an end.

DocBarrister

You don't know that. You have no idea what it would take to destroy Russia's military. Are you advocating that Ukrainian forces invade Russia ?
That's what it would take to achieve your objective.

We need to offer Putin a face saving off ramp that ends the fighting asap & keeps the energy & grain flowing, before winter impacts them all.
If Ukraine does not approve, they can continue without US aid. NATO won't continue adequate military support if the US doesn't. This is what France & Germany really want anyway. The other's will fall in line. Prolonging this war makes it a war of choice by the US.

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:26 pm
We need to offer Putin a face saving off ramp that ends the fighting asap & keeps the energy & grain flowing, before winter impacts them all.
If Ukraine does not approve, they can continue without US aid. NATO won't continue adequate military support if the US doesn't. This is what France & Germany really want anyway. The other's will fall in line. Prolonging this war makes it a war of choice by the US.

This is why we bicker. You can't keep your ideas straight for more than a few hours.

So tonight, you're back to telling us that you think Biden needs to cut Ukraine off from weapons, because that's what you think will drive them to the table.

After denying this to me multiple times: you're back to wanting Biden to cut them off.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:56 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:26 pm
We need to offer Putin a face saving off ramp that ends the fighting asap & keeps the energy & grain flowing, before winter impacts them all.
If Ukraine does not approve, they can continue without US aid. NATO won't continue adequate military support if the US doesn't. This is what France & Germany really want anyway. The other's will fall in line. Prolonging this war makes it a war of choice by the US.

This is why we bicker. You can't keep your ideas straight for more than a few hours.

So tonight, you're back to telling us that you think Biden needs to cut Ukraine off from weapons, because that's what you think will drive them to the table.

After denying this to me multiple times: you're back to wanting Biden to cut them off.

We don't need to cut off weapons completely. We need to calibrate what we provide to achieve a stalemate then a cease fire in place.

We can't let Russia defeat Ukraine & end their independence. That danger has passed.
We don't need to continue to support Ukraine until they take back all the territory they lost (or abandoned) since 2014, & we certainly can't fulfill the dream of totally defeating Russia's military or forcing a regime change.

The time is right to freeze the conflict in place & get the parties to the negotiating table.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:39 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:56 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:41 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:26 pm
We need to offer Putin a face saving off ramp that ends the fighting asap & keeps the energy & grain flowing, before winter impacts them all.
If Ukraine does not approve, they can continue without US aid. NATO won't continue adequate military support if the US doesn't. This is what France & Germany really want anyway. The other's will fall in line. Prolonging this war makes it a war of choice by the US.

This is why we bicker. You can't keep your ideas straight for more than a few hours.

So tonight, you're back to telling us that you think Biden needs to cut Ukraine off from weapons, because that's what you think will drive them to the table.

After denying this to me multiple times: you're back to wanting Biden to cut them off.

We don't need to cut off weapons completely. We need to calibrate what we provide to achieve a stalemate then a cease fire in place.

We can't let Russia defeat Ukraine & end their independence. That danger has passed.
We don't need to continue to support Ukraine until they take back all the territory they lost (or abandoned) since 2014, & we certainly can't fulfill the dream of totally defeating Russia's military or forcing a regime change.

The time is right to freeze the conflict in place & get the parties to the negotiating table.

God-complex much? You're a piece of work, friend.

This sort of attitude you display is part of why the US is reviled in some parts of the world.

old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:13 pm It does not matter what the agreement says. It's a voluntary agreement.
The attack gives Putin a pretext to opt out & reduces the chances for renewal.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-n-turkey ... 1667157614

Food supplies are becoming a central component of Russia’s geopolitical strategy, political analysts say, with the Kremlin using commodities like wheat to pressure non-Western countries into siding with Moscow or remaining neutral in the war. Other world powers like China and India have signaled concerns about the Russian assault on Ukraine in recent months, deepening Russia’s international isolation.

Within Ukraine, the decision to again blockade the Black Sea ports also intensifies Russia’s strategy of using missile and drone strikes to attack key Ukrainian infrastructure including electricity and water and heating systems. Ukrainian officials say the strikes are intended to psychologically wear down the broader population at a time when Russian forces are losing ground in the war.

The blockade also puts economic pressure on Ukraine, which relies heavily on agricultural exports. Around 10% of the country’s peacetime gross domestic product comes from the agricultural sector.

Ukrainian farmers have been struggling for months in the face of Russian bombings and seizures of farmland. The disruptions of the war have meant that farmers have planted and harvested less this year, raising concerns about future harvests.

“Prices will go sky high, people will be short of food, and Ukrainian farmers won’t be able to sell their products, meaning no income for them, affecting future harvests,” said Kees Huizinga, who farms wheat, barley and sugar beet, and raises livestock in central Ukraine. “So we are back to the beginning again.”

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:53 am Yes, Ukraine has a right to attack Russian warships, even if the obviously foreseeable result is to give Russia a pretext to exit the voluntary agreement to lift the naval blockade to allow grain shipments to resume. Smart move Ukraine. Was it worth it ?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:59 am

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:53 am Yes, Ukraine has a right to attack Russian warships, even if the obviously foreseeable result is to give Russia a pretext to exit the voluntary agreement to lift the naval blockade to allow grain shipments to resume. Smart move Ukraine. Was it worth it ?

Yes, if Russia is sending missiles from those ships...as they were.
Ukraine needs to destroy all of Russia's military capacity in and threatening Ukraine.
That's the only way they will be safe from Putin's aggression and war crimes.

Russia has the "right" to withdraw completely.

"pretext" : a reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason.

They were going to bomb Ukraine's infrastructure regardless of this event. Same for grain blockaded (though I think that will get challenged and Russa will fold). This only gives them a propaganda point for the apologists and appeasers in the West and for the ideologues in Russia.

But propaganda should be revealed as such, not spread as if valid.

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:13 am So doesn't Ukraine have a right to defend itself from Russian ships launching missiles? Do you really think the "agreement" excludes hostile actions against Russian naval assets known to be involved in this type of activity?

Like usual, your people aren't in the WH so its time to disagree and biyach about every decision they make. Rinse and repeat. You've been doing this for YEARS.

a fan still has you pegged for this M.O.

get it to x wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:38 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:13 am So doesn't Ukraine have a right to defend itself from Russian ships launching missiles? Do you really think the "agreement" excludes hostile actions against Russian naval assets known to be involved in this type of activity?

Like usual, your people aren't in the WH so its time to disagree and biyach about every decision they make. Rinse and repeat. You've been doing this for YEARS.

a fan still has you pegged for this M.O.

I would note that while, as you stated, "your people" were in the WH, Russia wasn't so ambitious. In fact, the whole time Trump was in the WH your side was accusing Putin of conspiring with Trump to defraud the American people. Ukraine was invaded twice, under two D administrations. Weakness invites aggression, a lesson taught over and over throughout history.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:39 pm God-complex much?

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:21 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:59 am

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:53 am Yes, Ukraine has a right to attack Russian warships, even if the obviously foreseeable result is to give Russia a pretext to exit the voluntary agreement to lift the naval blockade to allow grain shipments to resume. Smart move Ukraine. Was it worth it ?

Yes, if Russia is sending missiles from those ships...as they were.
Ukraine needs to destroy all of Russia's military capacity in and threatening Ukraine.
That's the only way they will be safe from Putin's aggression and war crimes.

Russia has the "right" to withdraw completely.

"pretext" : a reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason.

They were going to bomb Ukraine's infrastructure regardless of this event. Same for grain blockaded (though I think that will get challenged and Russa will fold). This only gives them a propaganda point for the apologists and appeasers in the West and for the ideologues in Russia.

But propaganda should be revealed as such, not spread as if valid.

The agreement expires in a couple weeks. Negotiations were underway to extend it. Russia was looking for a reason to not extend it because of the revenue it generates for Ukraine. This gives them that reason. They are also trying to get sanctions lifted on their export of ammonia & fertilizer which are needed to help alleviate the food shortage. This attack throws a wrench in the negotiations.

You don't know yet if the attack even hit or disabled any of the cruise missile firing ships.
Russia can indefinitely launch cruise missiles from their Caspian Sea Flotilla, as they did against Syria.
The Caspian Flotilla has 2 Frigates & 3 Corvettes capable of firing Kalibr cruise missiles.
The only limit is their inventory of missiles to reload.

https://www.itamilradar.com/2022/10/19/ ... spian-sea/

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:45 am

get it to x wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:38 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:13 am So doesn't Ukraine have a right to defend itself from Russian ships launching missiles? Do you really think the "agreement" excludes hostile actions against Russian naval assets known to be involved in this type of activity?

Like usual, your people aren't in the WH so its time to disagree and biyach about every decision they make. Rinse and repeat. You've been doing this for YEARS.

a fan still has you pegged for this M.O.

I would note that while, as you stated, "your people" were in the WH, Russia wasn't so ambitious. In fact, the whole time Trump was in the WH your side was accusing Putin of conspiring with Trump to defraud the American people. Ukraine was invaded twice, under two D administrations. Weakness invites aggression, a lesson taught over and over throughout history.

Do tell us how the former DOPUS acted tough with Putin in four years?

Try the blue kool-aid.

get it to x wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:15 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:45 am

get it to x wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:38 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:13 am So doesn't Ukraine have a right to defend itself from Russian ships launching missiles? Do you really think the "agreement" excludes hostile actions against Russian naval assets known to be involved in this type of activity?

Like usual, your people aren't in the WH so its time to disagree and biyach about every decision they make. Rinse and repeat. You've been doing this for YEARS.

a fan still has you pegged for this M.O.

I would note that while, as you stated, "your people" were in the WH, Russia wasn't so ambitious. In fact, the whole time Trump was in the WH your side was accusing Putin of conspiring with Trump to defraud the American people. Ukraine was invaded twice, under two D administrations. Weakness invites aggression, a lesson taught over and over throughout history.

Do tell us how the former DOPUS acted tough with Putin in four years?

Try the blue kool-aid.

Did I say he acted tough? You don't know what was said to Putin and neither do I. Trump was a "Peacenik" compared to the warmongering establishment (D's and R's), whose loyalty is to the Military Industrial Complex. As a SC resident, I long for the day when Graham retires. Try the red pill, it results in way fewer deaths. See Afghanistan under Trump.

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:21 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:59 am

old salt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:53 am Yes, Ukraine has a right to attack Russian warships, even if the obviously foreseeable result is to give Russia a pretext to exit the voluntary agreement to lift the naval blockade to allow grain shipments to resume. Smart move Ukraine. Was it worth it ?

Yes, if Russia is sending missiles from those ships...as they were.
Ukraine needs to destroy all of Russia's military capacity in and threatening Ukraine.
That's the only way they will be safe from Putin's aggression and war crimes.

Russia has the "right" to withdraw completely.

"pretext" : a reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason.

They were going to bomb Ukraine's infrastructure regardless of this event. Same for grain blockaded (though I think that will get challenged and Russa will fold). This only gives them a propaganda point for the apologists and appeasers in the West and for the ideologues in Russia.

But propaganda should be revealed as such, not spread as if valid.

The agreement expires in a couple weeks. Negotiations were underway to extend it. Russia was looking for a reason to not extend it because of the revenue it generates for Ukraine. This gives them that reason. They are also trying to get sanctions lifted on their export of ammonia & fertilizer which are needed to help alleviate the food shortage. This attack throws a wrench in the negotiations.

You don't know yet if the attack even hit or disabled any of the cruise missile firing ships.
Russia can indefinitely launch cruise missiles from their Caspian Sea Flotilla, as they did against Syria.
The Caspian Flotilla has 2 Frigates & 3 Corvettes capable of firing Kalibr cruise missiles.
The only limit is their inventory of missiles to reload.

https://www.itamilradar.com/2022/10/19/ ... spian-sea/

DMac wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:55 am

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:39 pm God-complex much?

Oh my!! Ye, with the stick in thine eye, I ask, who the fcuk are you to be making such accusations?

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:43 am
Do I call people out for ridiculous positions? Yep. Don't like? Too bad.