Page 368 of 632
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:40 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:22 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:31 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:58 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:15 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:13 am
Are you going to look to take every position and try to make the case that Russia is going everything great and eating the rest of the world’s lunch?
Providing balance to the triumphalist Ukrainian propaganda reported by our media that is posted here.
These minor Ukrainian victories produce damaging reactions.
A truck bomb temporarily takes out 1 of 3 spans on the Kerch bridge, Ukraine sends out snarky tweets, Russia takes out 1/4 of Ukraine's elec grid with winter approaching. Zelensky tells displaced Ukrainians not to come home yet.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... er-system/
This strike on a Russian ship violates the carefully negotiated agreement that lifted the blockade on grain shipments & the blockade is reinstated.
Grain shipments can still be interdicted at sea, outside the range of Ukrainian weapons. Ship owners & insurers are not going to risk sailing into a war at sea.
Are these minor Ukrainian tactical & propaganda victories worth the strategic costs or are they the rash decisions of an unreliable, over-equipped "ally"?
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Agree.
Openly rooting for Russia in this completely unjustified invasion of Ukraine is truly beyond repugnant.
There are no “two sides” to this war. Russia is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine. Russia needs to withdraw from all of Ukraine, including Crimea.
These efforts to falsely demonize Ukraine are absolutely disgusting and disgraceful.
DocBarrister
Celebrate this, doc.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3713 ... ad-impact/
Pentagon: Russian strikes on Ukraine’s power grid, water supply had ‘widespread impact’
Oh this is just great. So today's "I'm rooting for Putin, but will get angry if my fellow posters call me out for rooting for Putin" post is this?
Did you SERIOUSLY just tell us that this is Ukraines fault for daring to try and win the war? That hitting Russian rail infrastructure is stupid on the part of the Ukrainians, and they should just......do WHAT, exactly?
ProTip: no one here said that Putin could kill people. Or damage homes. Or damage infrastructure, Old Salt. So I have no clue what strawman you think this post is directed at.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:44 pm
by PizzaSnake
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:12 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:58 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:15 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:13 am
Are you going to look to take every position and try to make the case that Russia is going everything great and eating the rest of the world’s lunch?
Providing balance to the triumphalist Ukrainian propaganda reported by our media that is posted here.
These minor Ukrainian victories produce damaging reactions.
A truck bomb temporarily takes out 1 of 3 spans on the Kerch bridge, Ukraine sends out snarky tweets, Russia takes out 1/4 of Ukraine's elec grid with winter approaching. Zelensky tells displaced Ukrainians not to come home yet.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... er-system/
This strike on a Russian ship violates the carefully negotiated agreement that lifted the blockade on grain shipments & the blockade is reinstated.
Grain shipments can still be interdicted at sea, outside the range of Ukrainian weapons. Ship owners & insurers are not going to risk sailing into a war at sea.
Are these minor Ukrainian tactical & propaganda victories worth the strategic costs or are they the rash decisions of an unreliable, over-equipped "ally"?
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
I'm a US taxpayer who is helping to pay for this US proxy war against Russia.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
by old salt
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:40 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:22 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:31 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:58 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:15 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:13 am
Are you going to look to take every position and try to make the case that Russia is going everything great and eating the rest of the world’s lunch?
Providing balance to the triumphalist Ukrainian propaganda reported by our media that is posted here.
These minor Ukrainian victories produce damaging reactions.
A truck bomb temporarily takes out 1 of 3 spans on the Kerch bridge, Ukraine sends out snarky tweets, Russia takes out 1/4 of Ukraine's elec grid with winter approaching. Zelensky tells displaced Ukrainians not to come home yet.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... er-system/
This strike on a Russian ship violates the carefully negotiated agreement that lifted the blockade on grain shipments & the blockade is reinstated.
Grain shipments can still be interdicted at sea, outside the range of Ukrainian weapons. Ship owners & insurers are not going to risk sailing into a war at sea.
Are these minor Ukrainian tactical & propaganda victories worth the strategic costs or are they the rash decisions of an unreliable, over-equipped "ally"?
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Agree.
Openly rooting for Russia in this completely unjustified invasion of Ukraine is truly beyond repugnant.
There are no “two sides” to this war. Russia is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine. Russia needs to withdraw from all of Ukraine, including Crimea.
These efforts to falsely demonize Ukraine are absolutely disgusting and disgraceful.
DocBarrister
Celebrate this, doc.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3713 ... ad-impact/
Pentagon: Russian strikes on Ukraine’s power grid, water supply had ‘widespread impact’
Oh this is just great. So today's "I'm rooting for Putin, but will get angry if my fellow posters call me out for rooting for Putin" post is this?
Did you SERIOUSLY just tell us that this is Ukraines fault for daring to try and win the war? That hitting Russian rail infrastructure is stupid on the part of the Ukrainians, and they should just......do WHAT, exactly?
ProTip: no one here said that Putin could kill people. Or damage homes. Or damage infrastructure, Old Salt. So I have no clue what strawman you think this post is directed at.
Acknowledging the obvious is not "rooting for Putin."
This is just prolonging a stupid war, which will kill thousands on both sides, reduce Ukraine to rubble & generate a global energy & food crisis, fueling a recession.
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:53 pm
by old salt
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:44 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:12 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:58 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:15 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:13 am
Are you going to look to take every position and try to make the case that Russia is going everything great and eating the rest of the world’s lunch?
Providing balance to the triumphalist Ukrainian propaganda reported by our media that is posted here.
These minor Ukrainian victories produce damaging reactions.
A truck bomb temporarily takes out 1 of 3 spans on the Kerch bridge, Ukraine sends out snarky tweets, Russia takes out 1/4 of Ukraine's elec grid with winter approaching. Zelensky tells displaced Ukrainians not to come home yet.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... er-system/
This strike on a Russian ship violates the carefully negotiated agreement that lifted the blockade on grain shipments & the blockade is reinstated.
Grain shipments can still be interdicted at sea, outside the range of Ukrainian weapons. Ship owners & insurers are not going to risk sailing into a war at sea.
Are these minor Ukrainian tactical & propaganda victories worth the strategic costs or are they the rash decisions of an unreliable, over-equipped "ally"?
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
I'm a US taxpayer who is helping to pay for this US proxy war against Russia.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
So hitting ships don't weaken a blockade? Or at least, the will to continue said blockade? What should they be hitting instead.
Seems to me that Ukrainians forces and strategist are punching WAY above their weight class. And yet you're criticizing them for...what..exactly?
That they're trying to win?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm
by MDlaxfan76
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
yes, you do.
Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.
And, others will indeed call you out.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:00 pm
by old salt
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
So hitting ships don't weaken a blockade? Or at least, the will to continue said blockade? What should they be hitting instead.
Seems to me that Ukrainians forces and strategist are punching WAY above their weight class. And yet you're criticizing them for...what..exactly?
That they're trying to win?
Russia pulled back the blockade, allowing grain ships in & out.
This attack breached that agreement so Russia is re-instituting the blockade & halting the grain exports.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:02 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:00 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
So hitting ships don't weaken a blockade? Or at least, the will to continue said blockade? What should they be hitting instead.
Seems to me that Ukrainians forces and strategist are punching WAY above their weight class. And yet you're criticizing them for...what..exactly?
That they're trying to win?
Russia pulled back the blockade, allowing grain ships in & out.
This attack breached that agreement so Russia is re-instituting the blockade & halting the grain exports.
Serious question: Ukraine agreed that Russian warships would not be attacked?
Even if they fire missiles at Ukraine???
Even if they're 137 miles away from the grain corridor?
So, the world could be fed?
And you're siding with the Russians???
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
yes, you do.
Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.
And, others will indeed call you out.
In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:06 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
yes, you do.
Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.
And, others will indeed call you out.
In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
yes, that first was a particularly hyperbolic response to your posts on the topic.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:08 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:02 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:00 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
So hitting ships don't weaken a blockade? Or at least, the will to continue said blockade? What should they be hitting instead.
Seems to me that Ukrainians forces and strategist are punching WAY above their weight class. And yet you're criticizing them for...what..exactly?
That they're trying to win?
Russia pulled back the blockade, allowing grain ships in & out.
This attack breached that agreement so Russia is re-instituting the blockade & halting the grain exports.
Serious question: Ukraine agreed that Russian warships would not be attacked?
Even if they fire missiles at Ukraine???
Even if they're 137 miles away from the grain corridor?
So, the world could be fed?
And you're siding with the Russians???
I'm pointing out the cause & effect of the result of the drone attack on the Russian frigate.
It was a difficult negotiation by Turkey & the UN to get the blockade lifted & the grain shipments started again.
This should surprise no one.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:12 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:40 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:22 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:31 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:58 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:15 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 6:13 am
Are you going to look to take every position and try to make the case that Russia is going everything great and eating the rest of the world’s lunch?
Providing balance to the triumphalist Ukrainian propaganda reported by our media that is posted here.
These minor Ukrainian victories produce damaging reactions.
A truck bomb temporarily takes out 1 of 3 spans on the Kerch bridge, Ukraine sends out snarky tweets, Russia takes out 1/4 of Ukraine's elec grid with winter approaching. Zelensky tells displaced Ukrainians not to come home yet.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... er-system/
This strike on a Russian ship violates the carefully negotiated agreement that lifted the blockade on grain shipments & the blockade is reinstated.
Grain shipments can still be interdicted at sea, outside the range of Ukrainian weapons. Ship owners & insurers are not going to risk sailing into a war at sea.
Are these minor Ukrainian tactical & propaganda victories worth the strategic costs or are they the rash decisions of an unreliable, over-equipped "ally"?
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Agree.
Openly rooting for Russia in this completely unjustified invasion of Ukraine is truly beyond repugnant.
There are no “two sides” to this war. Russia is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine. Russia needs to withdraw from all of Ukraine, including Crimea.
These efforts to falsely demonize Ukraine are absolutely disgusting and disgraceful.
DocBarrister
Celebrate this, doc.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3713 ... ad-impact/
Pentagon: Russian strikes on Ukraine’s power grid, water supply had ‘widespread impact’
Oh this is just great. So today's "I'm rooting for Putin, but will get angry if my fellow posters call me out for rooting for Putin" post is this?
Did you SERIOUSLY just tell us that this is Ukraines fault for daring to try and win the war? That hitting Russian rail infrastructure is stupid on the part of the Ukrainians, and they should just......do WHAT, exactly?
ProTip: no one here said that Putin could kill people. Or damage homes. Or damage infrastructure, Old Salt. So I have no clue what strawman you think this post is directed at.
Acknowledging the obvious is not "rooting for Putin."
This is just prolonging a stupid war, which will kill thousands on both sides, reduce Ukraine to rubble & generate a global energy & food crisis, fueling a recession.
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
Yes, this is a "stupid war"...a war for Ukraine's very existence.
A war for the rule of law and international order.
Against a war criminal and mass murderer.
Against blackmail of starvation of millions.
Against nuclear blackmail.
I don't know what wars are not "stupid", but surely this proving to be "stupid" for Russia, but existential for Ukraine.
And hugely important for the rest of the world as well.
But yes, Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb and "drone attacks on a warship". Gonna take a lot more than that.
On
that we agree.
Indeed, it's gonna take a whole lot...but the very most important is the Ukrainian and its democratic allies resolve to win.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:16 pm
by PizzaSnake
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:06 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
yes, you do.
Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.
And, others will indeed call you out.
In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
yes, that first was a particularly hyperbolic response to your posts on the topic.
Okay, I'll play. Where's the substance? That Ukraine, after being attacked, should concede some of their territory that was recognized and affirmed by multiple nations, including, but not limited to, the US and Russia? That defending their health and energy infrastructure from ship-launched missiles is provocative? These positions are so risible they beggar belief.
I have serious doubts about the US military after this demonstration of substance from a former service member. OS, didn't you ever learn the law of holes? You know, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
But to level set this substantive discussion:
1. Is the Russian invasion and commission of multiple acts of rape, murder, and property destruction acceptable to you?
2. What limits are there on Ukraine in defending its territory and people?
3. What gives the US (and its citizens) a "vote" in any of this?
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:20 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:08 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:02 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:00 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
So hitting ships don't weaken a blockade? Or at least, the will to continue said blockade? What should they be hitting instead.
Seems to me that Ukrainians forces and strategist are punching WAY above their weight class. And yet you're criticizing them for...what..exactly?
That they're trying to win?
Russia pulled back the blockade, allowing grain ships in & out.
This attack breached that agreement so Russia is re-instituting the blockade & halting the grain exports.
Serious question: Ukraine agreed that Russian warships would not be attacked?
Even if they fire missiles at Ukraine???
Even if they're 137 miles away from the grain corridor?
So, the world could be fed?
And you're siding with the Russians???
I'm pointing out the cause & effect of the result of the drone attack on the Russian frigate.
It was a difficult negotiation by Turkey & the UN to get the blockade lifted & the grain shipments started again.
This should surprise no one.
mmm, seems to me this was merely pretext, not actual causal.
Russia is losing the war...badly.
And the ideologues are clamoring for "revenge" and mass destruction.
The concern
was that Putin would follow through on his threat, given losses in conventional battleground, to use nuclear weapons.
But it appears that either that step could not get the military's support, in the face of the communications that they were receiving from western/NATO counterparts that the military would be utterly decimated if they did so...OR they realized that they would be ineffective tactically and would create such strategic blowback it wasn't worth the cost (eg losing India and China)...so, they opted for a strategy that was akin to their much earlier indiscriminate bombing of
civilian populations to try to destroy Ukrainian resolve...and they are specifically doing so again, with that same intent...to create immense hardship for
civilians under the misguided notion that it would break their will.
The advantage was that this doesn't create as much blowback...because apologists and appeasers will continue to claim Ukraine should be forced to sue for peace on Russian terms.
I think that was the strategy without need for pretext...however, the pretext arms their apologists and appeasers in the West with a story...the Ukrainians are getting what they deserve...and a pretext for their Russian civilian population which are increasingly aware of the horrors this "stupid war" is creating.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:26 pm
by old salt
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:16 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:06 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
yes, you do.
Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.
And, others will indeed call you out.
In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
yes, that first was a particularly hyperbolic response to your posts on the topic.
Okay, I'll play. Where's the substance? That Ukraine, after being attacked, should concede some of their territory that was recognized and affirmed by multiple nations, including, but not limited to, the US and Russia? That defending their health and energy infrastructure from ship-launched missiles is provocative? These positions are so risible they beggar belief.
I have serious doubts about the US military after this demonstration of substance from a former service member. OS, didn't you ever learn the law of holes? You know, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
But to level set this substantive discussion:
1. Is the Russian invasion and commission of multiple acts of rape, murder, and property destruction acceptable to you?
2. What limits are there on Ukraine in defending its territory and people?
3. What gives the US (and its citizens) a "vote" in any of this?
I've already expressed my opinion on this. No need to start over & rehash.
I'm arguing based on the way things are, not how we wished they were.
Russia's playing by their rules, not ours. Right or wrong (from our perspective) will have limited influence on the outcome.
imho, I believe that prolonging this war is not worth the further death & destruction it will bring.
Ukraine's survival & independence is assured. We should push for a cease fire, frozen conflict & negotiated settlement,
rather than an open ended commitment to finance this war with a US blank check.
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:33 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:20 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:08 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:02 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:00 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
So hitting ships don't weaken a blockade? Or at least, the will to continue said blockade? What should they be hitting instead.
Seems to me that Ukrainians forces and strategist are punching WAY above their weight class. And yet you're criticizing them for...what..exactly?
That they're trying to win?
Russia pulled back the blockade, allowing grain ships in & out.
This attack breached that agreement so Russia is re-instituting the blockade & halting the grain exports.
Serious question: Ukraine agreed that Russian warships would not be attacked?
Even if they fire missiles at Ukraine???
Even if they're 137 miles away from the grain corridor?
So, the world could be fed?
And you're siding with the Russians???
I'm pointing out the cause & effect of the result of the drone attack on the Russian frigate.
It was a difficult negotiation by Turkey & the UN to get the blockade lifted & the grain shipments started again.
This should surprise no one.
mmm, seems to me this was merely pretext, not actual causal.
Russia is losing the war...badly.
And the ideologues are clamoring for "revenge" and mass destruction.
The concern
was that Putin would follow through on his threat, given losses in conventional battleground, to use nuclear weapons.
But it appears that either that step could not get the military's support, in the face of the communications that they were receiving from western/NATO counterparts that the military would be utterly decimated if they did so...OR they realized that they would be ineffective tactically and would create such strategic blowback it wasn't worth the cost (eg losing India and China)...so, they opted for a strategy that was akin to their much earlier indiscriminate bombing of
civilian populations to try to destroy Ukrainian resolve...and they are specifically doing so again, with that same intent...to create immense hardship for
civilians under the misguided notion that it would break their will.
The advantage was that this doesn't create as much blowback...because apologists and appeasers will continue to claim Ukraine should be forced to sue for peace on Russian terms.
I think that was the strategy without need for pretext...however, the pretext arms their apologists and appeasers in the West with a story...the Ukrainians are getting what they deserve...and a pretext for their Russian civilian population which are increasingly aware of the horrors this "stupid war" is creating.
Pretext or not, the agreement was working, the grain was moving, & it was up for an extension in a couple weeks. It is now in jeopardy again.
This attack, of unknown consequence, gave Putin the pretext he needed to threaten the shipments again.
Was the attack worth that or is Ukraine's aim to draw the US & NATO into a war at sea ?
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/31/11328203 ... eal-turkey
Re: Russia’s Black Sea flagship damaged in Crimea drone attack, video suggests
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:42 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:33 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:20 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:08 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:02 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:00 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:49 pm
Ukraine won't win the war with a truck bomb on a bridge or drone attacks on a warship so long as Russia can blockade Ukraine & turn off their lights & heat.
So hitting ships don't weaken a blockade? Or at least, the will to continue said blockade? What should they be hitting instead.
Seems to me that Ukrainians forces and strategist are punching WAY above their weight class. And yet you're criticizing them for...what..exactly?
That they're trying to win?
Russia pulled back the blockade, allowing grain ships in & out.
This attack breached that agreement so Russia is re-instituting the blockade & halting the grain exports.
Serious question: Ukraine agreed that Russian warships would not be attacked?
Even if they fire missiles at Ukraine???
Even if they're 137 miles away from the grain corridor?
So, the world could be fed?
And you're siding with the Russians???
I'm pointing out the cause & effect of the result of the drone attack on the Russian frigate.
It was a difficult negotiation by Turkey & the UN to get the blockade lifted & the grain shipments started again.
This should surprise no one.
mmm, seems to me this was merely pretext, not actual causal.
Russia is losing the war...badly.
And the ideologues are clamoring for "revenge" and mass destruction.
The concern
was that Putin would follow through on his threat, given losses in conventional battleground, to use nuclear weapons.
But it appears that either that step could not get the military's support, in the face of the communications that they were receiving from western/NATO counterparts that the military would be utterly decimated if they did so...OR they realized that they would be ineffective tactically and would create such strategic blowback it wasn't worth the cost (eg losing India and China)...so, they opted for a strategy that was akin to their much earlier indiscriminate bombing of
civilian populations to try to destroy Ukrainian resolve...and they are specifically doing so again, with that same intent...to create immense hardship for
civilians under the misguided notion that it would break their will.
The advantage was that this doesn't create as much blowback...because apologists and appeasers will continue to claim Ukraine should be forced to sue for peace on Russian terms.
I think that was the strategy without need for pretext...however, the pretext arms their apologists and appeasers in the West with a story...the Ukrainians are getting what they deserve...and a pretext for their Russian civilian population which are increasingly aware of the horrors this "stupid war" is creating.
Pretext or not, the agreement was working, the grain was moving, & it was up for an extension in a couple weeks. It is now in jeopardy again.
This attack, of unknown consequence, gave Putin the pretext he needed to threaten the shipments again.
Was the attack worth that or is Ukraine's aim to draw the US & NATO into a war at sea ?
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/31/11328203 ... eal-turkey
yeah, and Paul Pelosi's secret gay lover attacked him in a lover's quarrel.
Yes...
pretext. Not cause and effect.
137 miles away from the grain corridor...warship...Russia is firing missiles from their warships...BEFORE this event.
You didn't answer my serious question: Did the "agreement" say that all Russian warships were now immune from Ukrainian attack?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:49 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:26 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:16 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:06 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
yes, you do.
Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.
And, others will indeed call you out.
In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
yes, that first was a particularly hyperbolic response to your posts on the topic.
Okay, I'll play. Where's the substance? That Ukraine, after being attacked, should concede some of their territory that was recognized and affirmed by multiple nations, including, but not limited to, the US and Russia? That defending their health and energy infrastructure from ship-launched missiles is provocative? These positions are so risible they beggar belief.
I have serious doubts about the US military after this demonstration of substance from a former service member. OS, didn't you ever learn the law of holes? You know, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
But to level set this substantive discussion:
1. Is the Russian invasion and commission of multiple acts of rape, murder, and property destruction acceptable to you?
2. What limits are there on Ukraine in defending its territory and people?
3. What gives the US (and its citizens) a "vote" in any of this?
I've already expressed my opinion on this. No need to start over & rehash.
I'm arguing based on the way things are, not how we wished they were.
Russia's playing by their rules, not ours. Right or wrong (from our perspective) will have limited influence on the outcome.
imho, I believe that prolonging this war is not worth the further death & destruction it will bring.
Ukraine's survival & independence is assured. We should push for a cease fire, frozen conflict & negotiated settlement,
rather than an open ended commitment to finance this war with a US blank check.
= the war is not worth winning.
You are correct that Russia is playing by their rules, not ours. Specifically, Putin's rules.
That means that no agreement, none, can be relied upon with Putin in charge, having declared that Ukraine has no right to exist and that Russia's duty is to re-conquer it...or destroy it.
So, what's in it for Putin to "freeze" the conflict (temporarily)?...well, he doesn't lose, he has a chance to re-group, rebuild, and prepare to commit more massive atrocities in the near future...maybe, just maybe, after Trump or DeSantis gives him the green light....or they aid in the destruction of Ukraine by starving it of the resources needed to thrive...
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:12 pm
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:26 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:16 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:06 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:04 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:57 pm
I have as much right to express my opinion as you do to disagree.
yes, you do.
Doesn't make you correct in any way, though.
And, others will indeed call you out.
In case you missed it, I was responding to this. I'm trying to conduct a substantive discussion.
Who the fcuk are you to judge the actions of a country in an existential struggle? Did you learn this peculiar condescension at Boat U on my nickel? Or did you artive there with it fully formed from your vaunted mid-century educational experience?
The world has changed and passed you by as it does for all humans. Stop resisting and denying. Just makes you look ridiculous.
Curious, I must have missed the enactment of the personal line item veto. What public law was that?
yes, that first was a particularly hyperbolic response to your posts on the topic.
Okay, I'll play. Where's the substance? That Ukraine, after being attacked, should concede some of their territory that was recognized and affirmed by multiple nations, including, but not limited to, the US and Russia? That defending their health and energy infrastructure from ship-launched missiles is provocative? These positions are so risible they beggar belief.
I have serious doubts about the US military after this demonstration of substance from a former service member. OS, didn't you ever learn the law of holes? You know, when you're in a hole, stop digging.
But to level set this substantive discussion:
1. Is the Russian invasion and commission of multiple acts of rape, murder, and property destruction acceptable to you?
2. What limits are there on Ukraine in defending its territory and people?
3. What gives the US (and its citizens) a "vote" in any of this?
I've already expressed my opinion on this. No need to start over & rehash.
I'm arguing based on the way things are, not how we wished they were.
Russia's playing by their rules, not ours. Right or wrong (from our perspective) will have limited influence on the outcome.
imho, I believe that prolonging this war is not worth the further death & destruction it will bring.
Ukraine's survival & independence is assured. We should push for a cease fire, frozen conflict & negotiated settlement,
rather than an open ended commitment to finance this war with a US blank check.
Why do you keep proposing something that Putin will never accept?
Putin will not stop this war until Russia is militarily and economically castrated and Putin has no choice but to end it.
That’s why this war must continue until it is Putin who is forced to sue for peace.
It is one of many tragedies of this cruel and inhumane war that Russia is inflicting on Ukraine … the only path to peace is the destruction of Russia’s military.
The sooner we get that task done, the sooner this deplorable war comes to an end.
DocBarrister
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:13 pm
by old salt
It does not matter what the agreement says. It's a voluntary agreement.
The attack gives Putin a pretext to opt out & reduces the chances for renewal.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-n-turkey ... 1667157614
Food supplies are becoming a central component of Russia’s geopolitical strategy, political analysts say, with the Kremlin using commodities like wheat to pressure non-Western countries into siding with Moscow or remaining neutral in the war. Other world powers like China and India have signaled concerns about the Russian assault on Ukraine in recent months, deepening Russia’s international isolation.
Within Ukraine, the decision to again blockade the Black Sea ports also intensifies Russia’s strategy of using missile and drone strikes to attack key Ukrainian infrastructure including electricity and water and heating systems. Ukrainian officials say the strikes are intended to psychologically wear down the broader population at a time when Russian forces are losing ground in the war.
The blockade also puts economic pressure on Ukraine, which relies heavily on agricultural exports. Around 10% of the country’s peacetime gross domestic product comes from the agricultural sector.
Ukrainian farmers have been struggling for months in the face of Russian bombings and seizures of farmland. The disruptions of the war have meant that farmers have planted and harvested less this year, raising concerns about future harvests.
“Prices will go sky high, people will be short of food, and Ukrainian farmers won’t be able to sell their products, meaning no income for them, affecting future harvests,” said Kees Huizinga, who farms wheat, barley and sugar beet, and raises livestock in central Ukraine. “So we are back to the beginning again.”