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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:16 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:54 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:50 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:45 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:36 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:32 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:18 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:06 am
Instead he doubled down and added more Jewish folks to his list, conveniently leaving out Paul Bremer who was at the core of the neocon movement as well. There were lots of people who have no Jewish heritage who were part of that ideological, intellectual 'group'.
FTR -- again. I was pointing out the self-proclaimed founders of the Neo-Conservative movement, not the entire body of people who have come to share many of their principles. There are many more prominent Americans, who happen to be Jewish, who advocate neocon positions. To do a roll call is silly.
Leaving out Bremer...and will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.
With the dinner parties controlling the course of history...
trope.
If not intended, incredibly easy to say, 'oops, my mistake, not intended, sorry for any offense'...and go back to critiquing the policy positions.
How far do you want to take this ? Add McCain, the Bushes, Cheney's, Wolofowitz, Pearle, Libby... you could fill a stadium.
Again -- I was referring to the founders & how they themselves described the genisis of their movement.
There's nothing dark or sinister there. It's not a trope. It's a key part of our modern political history.
Read any scholarship about the birth of the Neo Conservative movement & it will align with my description & include the names of the founders who I referenced.
It will include those names...and others.
Importantly, others...the trope was the 'dinner parties controlling the course of history'
The movement started way before this group you mention became prominent.
Again, it'd have been super easy to say, 'oops, not my intent, sorry for any offense, I'll try to avoid it in the future"...and go pack to your critique.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
FTR -- I did mention Kirkpatrick (& Bill Bennet) as token gentiles, Moynihan objected to being called a neoconservative.
The Kristol, Podhoretz, & Kagan dinner parties in NYC were legendary, not unlike Kay Graham's, Ben Bradley's & Sally Quinn's in DC.
It's not a trope to acknowledge the part they have played in our political history.
Again, the trope exists.
It's well-known.
If you stumbled into it, unintentionally, as you have repeatedly said now, it should have been easy to simply say, 'oops, I recognize the trope, not my intent, sorry to give offense, I'll try not to offend again'...and then explain what you really meant, including not simply "dinner parties" but "dinner parties and "
controlling the course of history"...
Trope re Jews and their control.
Aligns with trope about an international cabal of such.
Throughline with other tropes about control, and blood libel...
Who did I offend, other than you ?
Any reader, whether contributing poster or not, can (IMO should) be offended by this trope.
Whether they speak up or not.
Moreover, the repetition of the trope deeply ingrains this bigotry into our unconscious.
Now, if I thought you were just some troll trying to offend and inflame, I'd not have even bothered to point it out.
My intention was to provide you with the opportunity to unwind it, back away from it, clarify, etc...simple 'oops, etc' at least.
We can then discuss the merits of any particular argument, policy etc.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:38 am
by PizzaSnake
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:54 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:50 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:45 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:36 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:32 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:18 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:16 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:06 am
Instead he doubled down and added more Jewish folks to his list, conveniently leaving out Paul Bremer who was at the core of the neocon movement as well. There were lots of people who have no Jewish heritage who were part of that ideological, intellectual 'group'.
FTR -- again. I was pointing out the self-proclaimed founders of the Neo-Conservative movement, not the entire body of people who have come to share many of their principles. There are many more prominent Americans, who happen to be Jewish, who advocate neocon positions. To do a roll call is silly.
Leaving out Bremer...and will..Kirkpatrick...even Moynihan, all of whom were described as neoconservatives.
With the dinner parties controlling the course of history...
trope.
If not intended, incredibly easy to say, 'oops, my mistake, not intended, sorry for any offense'...and go back to critiquing the policy positions.
How far do you want to take this ? Add McCain, the Bushes, Cheney's, Wolofowitz, Pearle, Libby... you could fill a stadium.
Again -- I was referring to the founders & how they themselves described the genisis of their movement.
There's nothing dark or sinister there. It's not a trope. It's a key part of our modern political history.
Read any scholarship about the birth of the Neo Conservative movement & it will align with my description & include the names of the founders who I referenced.
It will include those names...and others.
Importantly, others...the trope was the 'dinner parties controlling the course of history'
The movement started way before this group you mention became prominent.
Again, it'd have been super easy to say, 'oops, not my intent, sorry for any offense, I'll try to avoid it in the future"...and go pack to your critique.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
FTR -- I did mention Kirkpatrick (& Bill Bennet) as token gentiles, Moynihan objected to being called a neoconservative.
The Kristol, Podhoretz, & Kagan dinner parties in NYC were legendary, not unlike Kay Graham's, Ben Bradley's & Sally Quinn's in DC.
It's not a trope to acknowledge the part they have played in our political history.
Again, the trope exists.
It's well-known.
If you stumbled into it, unintentionally, as you have repeatedly said now, it should have been easy to simply say, 'oops, I recognize the trope, not my intent, sorry to give offense, I'll try not to offend again'...and then explain what you really meant, including not simply "dinner parties" but "dinner parties and "
controlling the course of history"...
Trope re Jews and their control.
Aligns with trope about an international cabal of such.
Throughline with other tropes about control, and blood libel...
Who did I offend, other than you ?
Me.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:07 am
by DMac
PizzaSnake wrote
Rest assured they do not take part in compulsory prayer or pledges. Save that shite for the dim-witted who are incapable of critical thought.
What's good for the goose and all that, no?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:45 am
by PizzaSnake
DMac wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:07 am
PizzaSnake wrote
Rest assured they do not take part in compulsory prayer or pledges. Save that shite for the dim-witted who are incapable of critical thought.
What's good for the goose and all that, no?
“Sauce for the goose”? I don’t think you understand what that means.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:58 am
by DMac
Sorry, guess I should have finished it. Figured you'd get it, guess not.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... e%20gander
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:48 pm
by MDlaxfan76
Gotta say, not sure what you're trying to communicate.
Please take another swing at the ball.
Were you saying that you were offended by the compulsory prayer and pledges comment and the description of those demanding such? Do you identify as such in public schools, feel allied to such perhaps? I wouldn't have guessed that...
You're in favor of compulsory prayer and pledges in public schools?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:07 pm
by a fan
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:24 pm
I disagree re Ukraine. No argument as to whether there's corruption, just as there is here in the US (worse in Ukraine), but that doesn't invalidate that it is a democracy, not an authoritarian state...no, it is not like the mafia and not a dictatorship.
Let's split the difference: they're working on it. How's that?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:18 pm
by DMac
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:48 pm
Gotta say, not sure what you're trying to communicate.
Please take another swing at the ball.
Were you saying that you were offended by the compulsory prayer and pledges comment and the description of those demanding such? Do you identify as such in public schools, feel allied to such perhaps? I wouldn't have guessed that...
You're in favor of compulsory prayer and pledges in public schools?
Geezuz, boys, this isn't really too hard. Snake says was offended by salty's comment.
Rest assured they do not take part in compulsory prayer or pledges. Save that shite for the dim-witted who are incapable of critical thought.
I'm figuring a whole lot of people were offended by his above comment, hence my goose and all that comment.
Capisce?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:20 pm
by MDlaxfan76
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:07 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:24 pm
I disagree re Ukraine. No argument as to whether there's corruption, just as there is here in the US (worse in Ukraine), but that doesn't invalidate that it is a democracy, not an authoritarian state...no, it is not like the mafia and not a dictatorship.
Let's split the difference: they're working on it. How's that?
I'm 100% fine with that...just not the finding that Putin's Russia is a remotely equivalent situation.
I don't think that's necessary to your otherwise consistent concern.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:28 pm
by MDlaxfan76
DMac wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:48 pm
Gotta say, not sure what you're trying to communicate.
Please take another swing at the ball.
Were you saying that you were offended by the compulsory prayer and pledges comment and the description of those demanding such? Do you identify as such in public schools, feel allied to such perhaps? I wouldn't have guessed that...
You're in favor of compulsory prayer and pledges in public schools?
Geezuz, boys, this isn't really too hard. Snake says was offended by salty's comment.
Rest assured they do not take part in compulsory prayer or pledges. Save that shite for the dim-witted who are incapable of critical thought.
I'm figuring a whole lot of people were offended by his above comment, hence my goose and all that comment.
Capisce?
I'm ok with folks being 'offended' when someone says their views are "whatever" bogus...and it's clear what the opinion is and why. These are personal choices, not based on race, gender, religion etc. And if someone isn't clear about it, asking is the first step. Disagreements needn't be comfortable, though I'm strongly in favor of civility even when it's a bit hard.
Quite a bit different than invoking racist or anti-religious tropes and slurs.
Again, if it's unintentional then it shouldn't be a big deal to say 'oops'.
Aas it the "dimwitted who are incapable of critical thought" you think was offensive to some group of people? A slur on dimwits?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:36 pm
by a fan
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:20 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:07 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:24 pm
I disagree re Ukraine. No argument as to whether there's corruption, just as there is here in the US (worse in Ukraine), but that doesn't invalidate that it is a democracy, not an authoritarian state...no, it is not like the mafia and not a dictatorship.
Let's split the difference: they're working on it. How's that?
I'm 100% fine with that...just not the finding that Putin's Russia is a remotely equivalent situation.
Oh, I agree with that, too. It's clearly not Putin's Russia. But. But....they're still working on their democracy. They're not there yet. I hope this mess gives the Ukrainian people a voice, and they don't just wind up with a meet the new boss, same as the old boss situation.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:45 pm
by MDlaxfan76
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:36 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:20 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:07 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:24 pm
I disagree re Ukraine. No argument as to whether there's corruption, just as there is here in the US (worse in Ukraine), but that doesn't invalidate that it is a democracy, not an authoritarian state...no, it is not like the mafia and not a dictatorship.
Let's split the difference: they're working on it. How's that?
I'm 100% fine with that...just not the finding that Putin's Russia is a remotely equivalent situation.
Oh, I agree with that, too. It's clearly not Putin's Russia. But. But....they're still working on their democracy. They're not there yet. I hope this mess gives the Ukrainian people a voice, and they don't just wind up with a meet the new boss, same as the old boss situation.
Yes... AND the likelihood of progress is far, far, far greater with Western support and hearty welcome than with Putin prevailing or creating an endless conflict/intermediation and influence situation.
We're backsliding here in the US on democracy.
Not that it'd ever been perfected, of course.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:57 pm
by DMac
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:28 pm
DMac wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:48 pm
Gotta say, not sure what you're trying to communicate.
Please take another swing at the ball.
Were you saying that you were offended by the compulsory prayer and pledges comment and the description of those demanding such? Do you identify as such in public schools, feel allied to such perhaps? I wouldn't have guessed that...
You're in favor of compulsory prayer and pledges in public schools?
Geezuz, boys, this isn't really too hard. Snake says was offended by salty's comment.
Rest assured they do not take part in compulsory prayer or pledges. Save that shite for the dim-witted who are incapable of critical thought.
I'm figuring a whole lot of people were offended by his above comment, hence my goose and all that comment.
Capisce?
I'm ok with folks being 'offended' when someone says their views are "whatever" bogus...and it's clear what the opinion is and why. These are personal choices, not based on race, gender, religion etc. And if someone isn't clear about it, asking is the first step. Disagreements needn't be comfortable, though I'm strongly in favor of civility even when it's a bit hard.
Quite a bit different than invoking racist or anti-religious tropes and slurs.
Again, if it's unintentional then it shouldn't be a big deal to say 'oops'.
Aas it the "dimwitted who are incapable of critical thought" you think was offensive to some group of people? A slur on dimwits?
Somehow you're missing something here, perhaps you're too focused on what it was that salty said and missing the big picture.
Do I think "dimwitted who are incapable of critical thought" might have offended a whole lot of people? I sure do. How many people sent their kids to public schools which I think pretty much all of started the day with the Pledge Of Allegiance and many likely had some prayer thrown in there too (all those Catholic schools I would bet do that). My parents sent me to public schools which started the day with the pledge and I sure don't consider them to be dimwitted and incapable of critical thought. It was a very offensive comment and warranted my response.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:10 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:14 pm
by MDlaxfan76
DMac wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:57 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:28 pm
DMac wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:48 pm
Gotta say, not sure what you're trying to communicate.
Please take another swing at the ball.
Were you saying that you were offended by the compulsory prayer and pledges comment and the description of those demanding such? Do you identify as such in public schools, feel allied to such perhaps? I wouldn't have guessed that...
You're in favor of compulsory prayer and pledges in public schools?
Geezuz, boys, this isn't really too hard. Snake says was offended by salty's comment.
Rest assured they do not take part in compulsory prayer or pledges. Save that shite for the dim-witted who are incapable of critical thought.
I'm figuring a whole lot of people were offended by his above comment, hence my goose and all that comment.
Capisce?
I'm ok with folks being 'offended' when someone says their views are "whatever" bogus...and it's clear what the opinion is and why. These are personal choices, not based on race, gender, religion etc. And if someone isn't clear about it, asking is the first step. Disagreements needn't be comfortable, though I'm strongly in favor of civility even when it's a bit hard.
Quite a bit different than invoking racist or anti-religious tropes and slurs.
Again, if it's unintentional then it shouldn't be a big deal to say 'oops'.
Aas it the "dimwitted who are incapable of critical thought" you think was offensive to some group of people? A slur on dimwits?
Somehow you're missing something here, perhaps you're too focused on what it was that salty said and missing the big picture.
Do I think "dimwitted who are incapable of critical thought" might have offended a whole lot of people? I sure do. How many people sent their kids to public schools which I think pretty much all of started the day with the Pledge Of Allegiance and many likely had some prayer thrown in there too (all those Catholic schools I would bet do that). My parents sent me to public schools which started the day with the pledge and I sure don't consider them to be dimwitted and incapable of critical thought. It was a very offensive comment and warranted my response.
ok.
I get that take on it.
On the other hand, I also think that in the current climate, current understanding of these issues, it's not a wholly unfair charge towards those who
demand compulsory prayer or pledge in public schools...sharp and harsh, but not a bigotry based on race, religion etc. Just the application of critical thought...difference of agreement.
I also get that Pizza wasn't doing the same thing as Salty had done (whether intentionally or not).
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:45 pm
by old salt
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:38 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:54 am
Who did I offend, other than you ?
Me
Are you Jewish ?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:56 pm
by Kismet
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:45 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:38 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:54 am
Who did I offend, other than you ?
Me
Are you Jewish ?
Why would that matter
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:02 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Kismet wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:45 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:38 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:54 am
Who did I offend, other than you ?
Me
Are you Jewish ?
Why would that matter
Unless you are Jewish, it’s just virtue signaling.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:13 pm
by old salt
Kismet wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:45 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:38 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:54 am
Who did I offend, other than you ?
Me
Are you Jewish ?
Why would that matter
Let PizzaSnake answer. Maybe it will become obvious.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:41 pm
by Kismet
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:13 pm
Kismet wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:56 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:45 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 10:38 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:54 am
Who did I offend, other than you ?
Me
Are you Jewish ?
Why would that matter
Let PizzaSnake answer. Maybe it will become obvious.
I wasn't asking him. My question was directed at you (seeing as you authored the question in the first place).
So help me out here and answer my question. Not looking for an argument just an answer. Thx.