Syracuse 2021

[MDlaxfan76]

I haven't been following this closely enough, but seems to me that most of this chatter about why Desko would be fired and why someone like Shay would be eager to replace him are from non-Syracuse alums/fans.

Are there Syracuse folks on this thread calling for Desko's head?

Nothing wrong with the rest of us speculating, but just wondered what the actual Syracuse folks think.

If we're going to draw comparisons to either Petro or Dom's departures, and certainly that's fair as they're all iconic, 'winningest' coaches etc with lots of deservedly loyal supporters, but the chatter from a large portion of Hopkins fans and UVA fans respectively was that it was time for the change.

Is that actually happening with Syracuse?

[jrn19]

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

Same thing has been happening to Bill Tierney, if you hadn't noticed.

Maybe the coach isn't the problem.

Bill Tierney has won a national championship and made 3 Final Fours since Desko last made 1 F4. Bit of a difference there.

But if the coach isn’t the problem; who is? His assistants? The coach hired them. The players? The coach recruited them. It’s not an NFL team with a meddling owner or bad GM. Desko is the owner and GM of Cuse lacrosse.

[jrn19]

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

Same thing has been happening to Bill Tierney, if you hadn't noticed.

Maybe the coach isn't the problem.

I know you've been over this time and again regarding Petro and now with Desko. Will you admit that the following things can all be true?

*Desko has been a great coach at Syracuse
*It's possible that if Syracuse hired a new coach they could have more success than they're having now with Desko

Of course! My opinion is that it is UNLIKELY. The one success story of replacing a coach of late was a complete anomaly, in that UVa had some real off the field issues that needed fixing. Navy is a bust. UMich is a bust. My "going over this time and again" is simply my reaction to people who have convinced themselves that the School itself and its "non-lacrosse attributes" are irrelevant to trips to the Final Four.

But I have to say----my dad is a Syracuse alum. He choked when I told him about where tuition has moved in just 20 years. Why would you go there as a blue chip if you can go to Maryland, and graduate nearly debt free. Or go to Yale and have far better job prospects? Or Duke? Or UVa?

Syracuse's tuition made sense 20 years ago. It doesn't anymore, to my eye. IMHO, this is a real problem. Personally, I don't think Maryland's consistency on the field ....and low tuition...is a coincidence. And UMd's academics are far, far better than they were 20 years ago imho because of the influx of Federal money.

Have you hear the ESPNU crew quote Breschi about the "one more elite player" in having Gray arrive?

What you are telling me is that a new coach will catch that "one more guy" than Desko has, and do it somewhat consistently. Color me skeptical, is all I'm saying.

Because as we've learned, X's and O's is all but irrelevant in D1 Final Four success. You either have the talent on the field, or you don't. Ask Tambroni what happens when the pivot of his entire offense graduates. Did he forget how to coach? Or did the departure of that one elite player kill his chances at Final Fours? I know where my money goes.

That said? As with Petro....if it's time to move on, it's time to move on.

Not a complete anomaly. Maryland replaced Dave Cottle and was roundly ridiculed and told they had exorbitant expectations. They’ve since been the best program in the country for 10+ years

Towson let go of Tony Seaman and had Bill Tierney lambast them in an article on Inside Lacrosse. 2 years later they were in the NCAA Tournament and 6 years later they were in the Final Four

[HopFan16]

I haven't been following this closely enough, but seems to me that most of this chatter about why Desko would be fired and why someone like Shay would be eager to replace him are from non-Syracuse alums/fans.

Are there Syracuse folks on this thread calling for Desko's head?

Nothing wrong with the rest of us speculating, but just wondered what the actual Syracuse folks think.

If we're going to draw comparisons to either Petro or Dom's departures, and certainly that's fair as they're all iconic, 'winningest' coaches etc with lots of deservedly loyal supporters, but the chatter from a large portion of Hopkins fans and UVA fans respectively was that it was time for the change.

Is that actually happening with Syracuse?

They post on the Syracuse Fan boards and yes many of them want a change at the top. Whether or not they represent the opinions of the truly influential alums/boosters—I have no idea. My guess is there's a lot more old boy's club support for JD out there than there is here on the internet. But even those loyal lieutenants can't be thrilled with a double-digit loss in the first round on top of the off-field distractions and not making a Final Four in a very long time by program standards.

The one success story of replacing a coach of late was a complete anomaly, in that UVa had some real off the field issues that needed fixing.

One could very easily argue that Syracuse has some off the field issues that need fixing as well.

[ohmilax34]

I haven't been following this closely enough, but seems to me that most of this chatter about why Desko would be fired and why someone like Shay would be eager to replace him are from non-Syracuse alums/fans.

Are there Syracuse folks on this thread calling for Desko's head?

Nothing wrong with the rest of us speculating, but just wondered what the actual Syracuse folks think.

If we're going to draw comparisons to either Petro or Dom's departures, and certainly that's fair as they're all iconic, 'winningest' coaches etc with lots of deservedly loyal supporters, but the chatter from a large portion of Hopkins fans and UVA fans respectively was that it was time for the change.

Is that actually happening with Syracuse?

Syracuse fan here. Non-alum and not from or living in CNY.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether Desko should stay or go, but here a few opinions I do have:

On the syracusefan.com forum, which has become a popular place for the SU lax fans who used to be on laxpower, there are many folks posting that he should be fired. However, the folks that are on their consistently throughout the offseason that really put time into the forum don't seem to have strong opinions that Desko should be fired. The loudest shouts for firing Desko seem to be coming from accounts I'm not familiar with, because they don't post very much.

Now, if you asked those of us who've been around laxpower, fanlax and the syracusefan.com forum whether we'd take Andy Shay right now if we had a choice between him or keeping Desko, I think most of us would take Shay, but probably only if Desko were to voluntarily step down. He's been great, and now that he's got a better recruiter on staff in Pat March, we may see an upward trend in the team's performance going forward.

I've posted this before, but I remember watching SU play in 2019 and thinking that they had really solid players all over the field, and I attributed that to solid recruiting and good coaching. Literally every spot on the field and many spots deep on the bench had good players who were making plays. Except, they didn't have a great attackman behind the cage. They ended up losing to loyola and Pat Spencer in the first round of the tournament. it was a bad match up for SU, because SU's main cover defender lacked the size to effectively cover Spencer, and SU didn't have a good plan B. SU's offense also seemed to grind to a halt in crunch time, but I think that's more a function of there not being the great talent behind the goal. It felt like the coaches were getting the most out of the players in 2019, which is the last full normal season we've had.

I guess you could say I'm a little conflicted.

Edited to delete comment regarding situation I don't know enough about and shouldn't comment on due to not knowing enough.

[jhu06]

the easy answer is for one of the 23432 aspiring journalists on your campus, or 30 or so working lacrosse journalists to call the school and ask for a confirmation he'd be back. Doesn't really serve your program or student athletes to have this kind of thing out there.

[wgdsr]

the easy answer is for one of the 23432 aspiring journalists on your campus, or 30 or so working lacrosse journalists to call the school and ask for a confirmation he'd be back. Doesn't really serve your program or student athletes to have this kind of thing out there.

to have what kind of thing out there?

[a fan]

Not a complete anomaly. Maryland replaced Dave Cottle and was roundly ridiculed and told they had exorbitant expectations. They’ve since been the best program in the country for 10+ years

Yep. That's one. And what's their tuition, and how difficult is it to gain admission? And how much have the other programs gone up in the past 20 years? We all know, for example, that Tierney stopped getting help from admission at Princeton, and what happened?

Towson let go of Tony Seaman and had Bill Tierney lambast them in an article on Inside Lacrosse. 2 years later they were in the NCAA Tournament and 6 years later they were in the Final Four

That's true, but...how's it going in 2021? And how did Tambroni do when Ament left? And Tierney when Berg left?

My opinion, and it's only an opinion....it's that if you rank things in terms of importance in D1 lacrosse and making Final Fours, numbers 1-10 are recruiting.

And the part that some folks forget, is that the coach is only one part of the equation on that front.

[a fan]

I've posted this before, but I remember watching SU play in 2019 and thinking that they had really solid players all over the field, and I attributed that to solid recruiting and good coaching. Literally every spot on the field and many spots deep on the bench had good players who were making plays. Except, they didn't have a great attackman behind the cage.

This literally explains SU's final four run in one sentence. They had a top three attackman on the field for 22 years. It's astonishing, really.

T Nelson
Zulberti
Maracheck
Riter
Powell
Powell
Powell

When you needed a goal? Or an assist? Or a slide? You could get one at any point during the game.


The part I don't get is: why would Shay leave? Again, no offense, but there isn't a better school anywhere. And he already brought home the hardware---so that carrot is out. And it's not like his wage sucks....and New Haven is, imho, a fine city. Need a beach? Get in the car. Need more/different culture? Head to NYC or Boston, just a few hours away. Plus: the Pizza, right?

[jrn19]

Not a complete anomaly. Maryland replaced Dave Cottle and was roundly ridiculed and told they had exorbitant expectations. They’ve since been the best program in the country for 10+ years

Yep. That's one. And what's their tuition, and how difficult is it to gain admission? And how much have the other programs gone up in the past 20 years? We all know, for example, that Tierney stopped getting help from admission at Princeton, and what happened?

Towson let go of Tony Seaman and had Bill Tierney lambast them in an article on Inside Lacrosse. 2 years later they were in the NCAA Tournament and 6 years later they were in the Final Four

That's true, but...how's it going in 2021? And how did Tambroni do when Ament left? And Tierney when Berg left?

My opinion, and it's only an opinion....it's that if you rank things in terms of importance in D1 lacrosse and making Final Fours, numbers 1-10 are recruiting.

And the part that some folks forget, is that the coach is only one part of the equation on that front.

How did Tierney do when Berg left? He was the #2 seed in the tournament in 2016 and made the Final Four in 2017.

[ohmilax34]

I mean the last two years of a complete normal they lost in the First Round of the tournament. Just like this year.

Same thing has been happening to Bill Tierney, if you hadn't noticed.

Maybe the coach isn't the problem.

I know you've been over this time and again regarding Petro and now with Desko. Will you admit that the following things can all be true?

*Desko has been a great coach at Syracuse
*It's possible that if Syracuse hired a new coach they could have more success than they're having now with Desko

Of course! My opinion is that it is UNLIKELY. The one success story of replacing a coach of late was a complete anomaly, in that UVa had some real off the field issues that needed fixing. Navy is a bust. UMich is a bust. My "going over this time and again" is simply my reaction to people who have convinced themselves that the School itself and its "non-lacrosse attributes" are irrelevant to trips to the Final Four.

But I have to say----my dad is a Syracuse alum. He choked when I told him about where tuition has moved in just 20 years. Why would you go there as a blue chip if you can go to Maryland, and graduate nearly debt free. Or go to Yale and have far better job prospects? Or Duke? Or UVa?

Syracuse's tuition made sense 20 years ago. It doesn't anymore, to my eye. IMHO, this is a real problem. Personally, I don't think Maryland's consistency on the field ....and low tuition...is a coincidence. And UMd's academics are far, far better than they were 20 years ago imho because of the influx of Federal money.

Have you hear the ESPNU crew quote Breschi about the "one more elite player" in having Gray arrive?

What you are telling me is that a new coach will catch that "one more guy" than Desko has, and do it somewhat consistently. Color me skeptical, is all I'm saying.

Because as we've learned, X's and O's is all but irrelevant in D1 Final Four success. You either have the talent on the field, or you don't. Ask Tambroni what happens when the pivot of his entire offense graduates. Did he forget how to coach? Or did the departure of that one elite player kill his chances at Final Fours? I know where my money goes.

That said? As with Petro....if it's time to move on, it's time to move on.

Thanks for your reply. I've always understood your viewpoint, but I didn't know if you would even entertain the idea that someone might be able to do a better job than Desko. In my response above to MDlax's question I mention the team culture, which I think is cause for concern among the fans.

[jhu06]

the easy answer is for one of the 23432 aspiring journalists on your campus, or 30 or so working lacrosse journalists to call the school and ask for a confirmation he'd be back. Doesn't really serve your program or student athletes to have this kind of thing out there.

to have what kind of thing out there?

"the program is 7-11 in its last 18 ncaa tournament games, does coach desko and his staff have the full support of the syracuse administration and are they confirmed to return for the next academic year?"

[HopFan16]

the easy answer is for one of the 23432 aspiring journalists on your campus, or 30 or so working lacrosse journalists to call the school and ask for a confirmation he'd be back. Doesn't really serve your program or student athletes to have this kind of thing out there.

to have what kind of thing out there?

"the program is 7-11 in its last 18 ncaa tournament games, does coach desko and his staff have the full support of the syracuse administration and are they confirmed to return for the next academic year?"

Why don't you send that exact email to the SID and then report back? You don't need a Newhouse degree to do that. Just say you're a reporter with FanLax News Network.

[wgdsr]

the easy answer is for one of the 23432 aspiring journalists on your campus, or 30 or so working lacrosse journalists to call the school and ask for a confirmation he'd be back. Doesn't really serve your program or student athletes to have this kind of thing out there.

to have what kind of thing out there?

"the program is 7-11 in its last 18 ncaa tournament games, does coach desko and his staff have the full support of the syracuse administration and are they confirmed to return for the next academic year?"

wasn't my question.

[DocBarrister]

I've posted this before, but I remember watching SU play in 2019 and thinking that they had really solid players all over the field, and I attributed that to solid recruiting and good coaching. Literally every spot on the field and many spots deep on the bench had good players who were making plays. Except, they didn't have a great attackman behind the cage.

This literally explains SU's final four run in one sentence. They had a top three attackman on the field for 22 years. It's astonishing, really.

T Nelson
Zulberti
Maracheck
Riter
Powell
Powell
Powell

When you needed a goal? Or an assist? Or a slide? You could get one at any point during the game.


The part I don't get is: why would Shay leave? Again, no offense, but there isn't a better school anywhere. And he already brought home the hardware---so that carrot is out. And it's not like his wage sucks....and New Haven is, imho, a fine city. Need a beach? Get in the car. Need more/different culture? Head to NYC or Boston, just a few hours away. Plus: the Pizza, right?

Syracuse hasn’t been lacking in talent. I recall that the 2015 Syracuse team had 11 All-Americans and ended their run at the quarterfinals.

Perhaps they didn’t have the right mix of talent or one key player, as you suggest, but the Orange have had more than their fair share of talented players.

DocBarrister

[wgdsr]

the easy answer is for one of the 23432 aspiring journalists on your campus, or 30 or so working lacrosse journalists to call the school and ask for a confirmation he'd be back. Doesn't really serve your program or student athletes to have this kind of thing out there.

to have what kind of thing out there?

"the program is 7-11 in its last 18 ncaa tournament games, does coach desko and his staff have the full support of the syracuse administration and are they confirmed to return for the next academic year?"

Why don't you send that exact email to the SID and then report back? You don't need a Newhouse degree to do that. Just say you're a reporter with FanLax News Network.

lol.
and i wonder if more than one have tried already?

[a fan]

How did Tierney do when Berg left? He was the #2 seed in the tournament in 2016

So intentionally leave out that DU was bounced in the first round in 2016?

Desko lost in the first round here in 2021 ....just like Tierney....yet Desko is horrible, and Tierney is doing a fine job?

Maybe this will help make my point: Tierney has been losing 1st round NCAA tourney games like it's his job of late, no? So let's say you get a new coach out here in Denver.

What are the odds that a new coach does better than Tierney?


As was the case with Petro (not that anyone cares), I have no problem with moving away from Desko. My point is: he might not be the problem.

[jrn19]

How did Tierney do when Berg left? He was the #2 seed in the tournament in 2016

So intentionally leave out that DU was bounced in the first round in 2016?

Desko lost in the first round here in 2021 ....just like Tierney....yet Desko is horrible, and Tierney is doing a fine job?

Maybe this will help make my point: Tierney has been losing 1st round NCAA tourney games like it's his job of late, no? So let's say you get a new coach out here in Denver.

What are the odds that a new coach does better than Tierney?


As was the case with Petro (not that anyone cares), I have no problem with moving

Yes. They still had a significantly better year than Syracuse has had in the last 4. Syracuse was an 8 seed in 2018, unseeded in 2019, and unseeded in 2021. Their issues are not just tournament performance. They haven’t been giving themselves chances to make tournament runs because they haven’t had a Top 10 team in 4 years now and that was their only one in the last 6 years.

Tierney’s teams have declined as well with the advent of the shot clock and I think it’s absolutely fair to ask whether his system works in the new era and style of lacrosse. They dominated the pre-shot clock era but their offenses have not been as potent as they once were for awhile and their style of grinding you down and having back breaking possessions and goals and then sending Trevor out there to win a draw and do it again doesn’t work as well when your maximum possession time is probably 1 1/2 minutes. If they go out in the first round again in the next few years I think you can ask more questions.

But this is a sustained dip from Desko now over the last 4-5 years or so and that followed a dip from 2010-2015 or so compared to where they’d been the 5 years prior to that. In addition, Desko is at a program which has a history of success and championships dating back 30-40 years. Denver’s only exists with Tierney. I don’t know if anyone else would do well at Denver - Jamie Munro did have some success - because no one has done what Tierney did. The Orange were winning championships before Desko got there and he kept winning them but now not only is he not winning them; he isn’t coming close. They’re not comparable jobs.

[HooDat]

Not a complete anomaly. Maryland replaced Dave Cottle and was roundly ridiculed and told they had exorbitant expectations. They’ve since been the best program in the country for 10+ years

Yep. That's one. And what's their tuition, and how difficult is it to gain admission? And how much have the other programs gone up in the past 20 years? We all know, for example, that Tierney stopped getting help from admission at Princeton, and what happened?

Towson let go of Tony Seaman and had Bill Tierney lambast them in an article on Inside Lacrosse. 2 years later they were in the NCAA Tournament and 6 years later they were in the Final Four

That's true, but...how's it going in 2021? And how did Tambroni do when Ament left? And Tierney when Berg left?

My opinion, and it's only an opinion....it's that if you rank things in terms of importance in D1 lacrosse and making Final Fours, numbers 1-10 are recruiting.

And the part that some folks forget, is that the coach is only one part of the equation on that front.

All good points. I would add the following:

- You have to be able to recruit players that will contribute to your success. Coaches need to: (1) get good players that fit their system, (2) provide a framework for their development, (3) keep them out of trouble and eligible to play.

In terms of marque coaches who's time had come:

Tierney at Princeton - the school took away (1)
Cottle - seemed to struggle with (2) or perhaps a combination of (2) and (1)
Starsia - clearly lost the script on (3), and I would argue (2). In terms of (1), if you are repeatedly missing on (3) then you are doing (1) incorrectly.
Petro - (1) and (2) were his issues, but esp (1)

There is at least one sign that maybe Desko is missing the mark on (1) and (3) as well.

[a fan]

Syracuse hasn’t been lacking in talent.

Yes they have. Just like Hopkins.

It's the one thing that you and some of your fellow Hopkins fans have never learned-----talent is relative. And Syracuse hasn't had Final Four level talent in years. Neither has Hopkins. And it's not even a close call. The best players are on other squads. Period.