old salt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:41 pm
Wrong. Stop misreprepresenting me. I've always approved DEFENSIVE aid. I just resent that we have to do it.
I'm not misrepresenting doodly. You won't stop complaining about it. Don't like the "misrepresentation"? Great. Stop whining about the defensive assistance.
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:41 pm
That is all he has taken -- look at a map. It's played out as I predicted.
That's 100% because of the help we've given them. What you (and I, for that matter) have suggested is that the US do NOTHING militarily. If Biden had done that? Putin would have rolled into Kiev. Biden and the Ukrainian forces stopped him from doing that.
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:41 pm
Ukraine is not in the process of joining NATO. That will take the approval of all NATO members. Good luck getting Turkey, Hungary & likely others to vote yes.
Oh, I get all that. What I'm telling you is that unless Ukrainian leaders are as stupid as you are pretending to be (pretending), they're going to get to work on nukes. They have all the uranium they need.
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:41 pm
Do the Ukrainians have the ability to develop nukes ? Will the US & NATO continue to provide support if they do ?
Ah, you just got the point. Even if Zelensky does everything you want, perfectly? Ukraine and Russia will be an unstable mess for decades to come. All because we foolishly trusted Russia in the Budapest agreement. And the UK, for that matter. Whoops.
If Putin uses those stupid "tactical" nukes, guess what every power in Asia will get?
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:41 pm
With continued US & NATO support in DEFENSIVE CONVENTIONAL weapons, Ukraine can deter another Russian invasion
The scoreboard says you're wrong. Trump armed and trained them, remember? It didn't deter doodly. And you can play dumb all you want, but you're not in charge of the safety of the Ukrainian people.
I have no idea why you are acting like you dont' get that. How many more times does Zelensky need to plead to NATO, the EU, and the US for weapons before you finally understand that from their perspective, the world has turned their back on Ukraine. Wake up.
Your only magic ability seems to be to look at the world from Putin's view. Maybe work on your skill set so you can extend that vision to others in this region.
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:41 pm
Zelensky should face reality. He failed to defend the territory he lost & does not have the ability to take it back without the US & NATO doing more than they are willing to risk. He has at least ensured the survival of his country. He should make the best deal he can & rebuild his country.
And if you were him, you'd let Putin keep Virginia, Maryland, and the Carolinas, would you? Right.
Tone deaf. You can't possibly be so dumb that you can't understand why Zelensky would want to keep the rest of his country in a war that's not even a year old.
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:41 pm
Putin is already deterred by the conventional defense Ukraine has mounted. He's struggling to hold what he has. He won't be invading anyone in his remaining time in power. He does not have the forces to do so.
This is you forever in "take that hill" mode. This thinking is why we got popped on 9/11....policy makers and military wonks are 100% unable to understand that our decisions have long term consequences, so you just shoot, fire, aim. Consequences that last for decades. See: our decision to bankroll a peaceful Iran, leading to 60 years of making them a pointless enemy for no reason whatsoever.
Biden has no good choices here. Every choice has long term downsides...... and not small downsides. Big ones. I'm with you in that I think we should have left this alone...but I get why Biden is arming them.