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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:06 pm
by old salt
a fan wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:13 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:53 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:52 am
We are waiting on Putin. He can end it anytime he wishes.
1914 is calling. They want their logic back.
You want to use logic? Ok.
In what world would Xi green light the use of tactical nukes in Asia? In case you've forgotten? Russia ain't the only team with nukes in the area.
What happens to stability of the entire region if they get the green light for these nuclear howitzers while conducting offensive operations?
Again, a steak dinner says Xi told Putin he can't do that. And Biden has the intel on this. And Putin knows that all the key players will stop trade with him if he does this....until he's gone, at the very least.
And again, where is he going to hit that won't harm Russia?
Putin has to go rogue (not use logic, and say "F it"). And so does his military that's shooting the thing. And after watching how incompetent and poorly maintained the Russian military is....if you're a Russian general, how sure are you that the weapon will work?
THAT is logic.
...& whoever thought it would get this far ? You do realize that those 4 partially conquered oblasts are now considered by the entire Russian government' & the Russian people, to be part of Russia again, like Crimea. It might be in violation of international law & upend the international order --- ok, what are we gonna do about it ? Do you wanna play the escalation game to wrest that territory back from Russia ? How far are you willing to go ?
Excuse me, but you've been telling me for how many years now that Putin would not & could not do the things he has done already.
In 1914, war was inevitable because the great powers began to mobilize & once they did, each was afraid to back down. Deja vu ?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:33 pm
by MDlaxfan76
A post was written earlier about ‘retired’; I quite agree.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:47 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 3:33 pm
A post was written earlier about ‘retired’; I quite agree.
Mike Mullen's also retired. Do you disagree with what he said today ?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-back ... d=91211746
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:01 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
He said The Ukraine should surrender and then work out an agreement with Putin. He said the USA needs to stop instigating and prolonging the conflict. Vlad is only protecting his people at home and liberating those in Russian territory arbitrarily established by the West. Those folks are being held captive. Zelensky and Biden are the reason this conflict continues. Putin wants them to sit around the table and hammer this thing out but they refuse.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:03 pm
by Farfromgeneva
Your missing that it wasn’t solely the condition of being retired but [position/behavior + active vs retired ].
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:04 pm
by Farfromgeneva
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:01 pm
He said The Ukraine should surrender and then work out an agreement with Putin. He said the USA needs to stop instigating and prolonging the conflict. Vlad is only protecting his people at home and liberating those in Russian territory arbitrarily established by the West. Those folks are being help captive. Zelensky and Biden are the reason this conflict continues. Putin wants them to sit around the table and hammer this thing out but they refuse.
It’s consistent with a pattern of victim blaming.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:22 pm
by MDlaxfan76
I don't have any issues with Mullen's taking that
public position.
What Biden did was to signal very, very clearly what the stakes would be should Putin make a really stupid decision. I think what others, like Mullen, are doing is providing the air cover for a rhetorical temperature reduction. Which is appropriate...let's see if Putin tones it down.
There's zero doubt as to where Mullen's sentiments lie in the matter of Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
I find that quite different from those who sentiments are clearly tinged with sentiment on behalf of White Christian Nationalism.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:09 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:22 pm
I don't have any issues with Mullen's taking that
public position.
What Biden did was to signal very, very clearly what the stakes would be should Putin make a really stupid decision. I think what others, like Mullen, are doing is providing the air cover for a rhetorical temperature reduction. Which is appropriate...let's see if Putin tones it down.
There's zero doubt as to where Mullen's sentiments lie in the matter of Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
I find that quite different from those who sentiments are clearly tinged with sentiment on behalf of White Christian Nationalism.
White Christian Nationalism.
How do you know who's a Christian & who is not ? Aren't most Ukrainians & Russians White Christians & Nationalists ? What's the Azov Battalion's LGBTQ+ policy ? Would they meet our Pentagon's standard ? Mike Mullen's white & I've seen him in the USNA Chapel. Putin's already made a really stupid decision. Now we have to offer him a way out that he can accept.
Mullen's message is -- stop the fighting & get them to the negotiating table. Give Putin an off ramp. The same thing I've been saying.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:17 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:09 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:22 pm
I don't have any issues with Mullen's taking that
public position.
What Biden did was to signal very, very clearly what the stakes would be should Putin make a really stupid decision. I think what others, like Mullen, are doing is providing the air cover for a rhetorical temperature reduction. Which is appropriate...let's see if Putin tones it down.
There's zero doubt as to where Mullen's sentiments lie in the matter of Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
I find that quite different from those who sentiments are clearly tinged with sentiment on behalf of White Christian Nationalism.
White Christian Nationalism.
How do you know who's a Christian & who is not ? Aren't most Ukrainians & Russians White Christians & Nationalists ? What's the Azov Battalion's LGBTQ+ policy ? Would they meet our Pentagon's standard ? Mike Mullen's white & I've seen him in the USNA Chapel. Putin's already made a really stupid decision. Now we have to offer him a way out that he can accept.
Mullen's message is -- stop the fighting & get them to the negotiating table. Give Putin an off ramp. The same thing I've been saying.
Yeah….Putin should stop the fighting. That’s his off ramp.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:09 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:22 pm
I don't have any issues with Mullen's taking that
public position.
What Biden did was to signal very, very clearly what the stakes would be should Putin make a really stupid decision. I think what others, like Mullen, are doing is providing the air cover for a rhetorical temperature reduction. Which is appropriate...let's see if Putin tones it down.
There's zero doubt as to where Mullen's sentiments lie in the matter of Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
I find that quite different from those who sentiments are clearly tinged with sentiment on behalf of White Christian Nationalism.
White Christian Nationalism.
How do you know who's a Christian & who is not ? Aren't most Ukrainians & Russians White Christians & Nationalists ? What's the Azov Battalion's LGBTQ+ policy ? Would they meet our Pentagon's standard ? Mike Mullen's white & I've seen him in the USNA Chapel. Putin's already made a really stupid decision. Now we have to offer him a way out that he can accept.
Mullen's message is -- stop the fighting & get them to the negotiating table. Give Putin an off ramp. The same thing I've been saying.
As I said, it's clear whose sentiments are actually with Putin (and the appeal is the avowed white christian nationalism led by an authoritarian imperialist who funds these movements around the world), and who isn't. Mullen isn't.
Of course there needs to an 'off ramp'...simplest one is for Putin to withdraw the troops.
The Third Dissolution of Russia
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:28 pm
by DocBarrister
Putin deluded himself into believing that he is the second coming of Peter the Great.
He may, instead, be the buffoon who has inflicted upon Russia its third dissolution, following the debacles of 1917 and 1991.
One lesson of history is that military defeat endangers dictatorial leaders. “Putin’s gamble may lead to a third dissolution of the Russian empire, which happened first in 1917 as the First World War wound down, and again in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union,” Bergen noted. “It could unfold once more as Putin’s dream of seizing Ukraine seems to be coming to an inglorious end.”
It’s striking to recall, as Frida Ghitis did, that “seven months ago, some viewed Putin as something of a genius. That myth has turned to dust. The man who helped suppress uprisings, entered wars and tried to manipulate elections across the planet now looks cornered.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/opinions ... index.html
DocBarrister
Re: The Third Dissolution of Russia
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:41 pm
by MDlaxfan76
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:28 pm
Putin deluded himself into believing that he is the second coming of Peter the Great.
He may, instead, be the buffoon who has inflicted upon Russia its third dissolution, following the debacles of 1917 and 1991.
One lesson of history is that military defeat endangers dictatorial leaders. “Putin’s gamble may lead to a third dissolution of the Russian empire, which happened first in 1917 as the First World War wound down, and again in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union,” Bergen noted. “It could unfold once more as Putin’s dream of seizing Ukraine seems to be coming to an inglorious end.”
It’s striking to recall, as Frida Ghitis did, that “seven months ago, some viewed Putin as something of a genius. That myth has turned to dust. The man who helped suppress uprisings, entered wars and tried to manipulate elections across the planet now looks cornered.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/opinions ... index.html
DocBarrister
While I think that assessment is correct, the problem is that Putin knows it as well...and may well take a very different tack, certainly than 1991. I'm expecting a big crackdown, rivaling stalinist purges, in order to maintain power. Blame will be on the military and anyone remotely seen as a threat to the maintenance of power (and the kleptocracy). I would not be in the least bit surprised to see some sort of ethnic or religious scapegoating as well. That may be the only playbook left that is semi- 'rational'...the problem with going nuclear (which so many of the hard liners are loudly calling for) is that the outcome of such a decision would be so disastrous for Russia that those calling for it would be subject to an uprising they might well be unable to control....as the military is completely decimated.
Re: The Third Dissolution of Russia
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:15 am
by old salt
“Putin’s gamble may lead to a third dissolution of the Russian empire, which happened first in 1917 as the First World War wound down, and again in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union, ...It could unfold once more as Putin’s dream of seizing Ukraine seems to be coming to an inglorious end.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/opinions ... index.html
Let's make sure it plays out that way. The Russian people have short memories & don't hold a grudge.
Re: The Third Dissolution of Russia
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:26 am
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:15 am
“Putin’s gamble may lead to a third dissolution of the Russian empire, which happened first in 1917 as the First World War wound down, and again in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union, ...It could unfold once more as Putin’s dream of seizing Ukraine seems to be coming to an inglorious end.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/09/opinions ... index.html
Let's make sure it plays out that way. The Russian people have short memories & don't hold a grudge.
Russian terrorists have launched a missile attack on Kyiv at rush hour, clearly intending to kill as many civilians as possible.
Our sympathies should not be with the trash in Russia.
And I hope the Russians do have a long memory, so they won’t repeat this homicidal invasion again.
DocBarrister
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:00 am
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
Of course there needs to an 'off ramp'...simplest one is for Putin to withdraw the troops.
Do you think that's what Pres Biden meant when he told his donors he was seeking an off ramp for Putin ?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:05 am
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
...the avowed white christian nationalism led by an authoritarian imperialist who funds these movements around the world
Who is the authoritarian imperialist who funds these white christian nationalist movements around the world ? The Pope ? Franklin Graham ? Jerry Falwell Jr ? Jimmy Swaggart ? Pat Robertson ? Jim & Tammy Faye have left the stage.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:30 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:05 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
...the avowed white christian nationalism led by an authoritarian imperialist who funds these movements around the world
Who is the authoritarian imperialist who funds these white christian nationalist movements around the world ? The Pope ? Franklin Graham ? Jerry Falwell Jr ? Jimmy Swaggart ? Pat Robertson ? Jim & Tammy Faye have left the stage.
Putin.
You know this...not sure why you're pretending to be dumb about it.
BTW, this Pope is certainly not a white christian nationalist....you may have noticed how much the right wing dislikes him.
I don't follow each of the evangelist folks you mention closely enough to lump any of them as part of supporting authoritarian imperialism, and I don't recall racism being an essential component...maybe Jerry Falwell?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:39 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:00 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
Of course there needs to an 'off ramp'...simplest one is for Putin to withdraw the troops.
Do you think that's what Pres Biden meant when he told his donors he was seeking an off ramp for Putin ?
I think he was verbalizing the desire for Putin to make the decision to withdraw. I think there must be work going on, of which he'd be aware, to find some way for Putin to do so without it being a completely ignominious defeat, his nose rubbed in the poop.
Doesn't mean there is such a path other than rhetorical restraint.
At a minimum, it's a desire to be positioned as
wanting Putin to back away from "Armageddon"; they may have intelligence that tells them that the likelihood of nuclear action is very high, even more likely than not, and so they know they will need to be responding 'hard'...
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:58 am
by Farfromgeneva
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:30 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:05 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
...the avowed white christian nationalism led by an authoritarian imperialist who funds these movements around the world
Who is the authoritarian imperialist who funds these white christian nationalist movements around the world ? The Pope ? Franklin Graham ? Jerry Falwell Jr ? Jimmy Swaggart ? Pat Robertson ? Jim & Tammy Faye have left the stage.
Putin.
You know this...not sure why you're pretending to be dumb about it.
BTW, this Pope is certainly not a white christian nationalist....you may have noticed how much the right wing dislikes him.
I don't follow each of the evangelist folks you mention closely enough to lump any of them as part of supporting authoritarian imperialism, and I don't recall racism being an essential component...maybe Jerry Falwell?
He’s more of a Jerry Falwell Jr kind of guy. Straight ethics and honor!
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:09 am
by MDlaxfan76
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:58 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:30 am
old salt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:05 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:40 pm
...the avowed white christian nationalism led by an authoritarian imperialist who funds these movements around the world
Who is the authoritarian imperialist who funds these white christian nationalist movements around the world ? The Pope ? Franklin Graham ? Jerry Falwell Jr ? Jimmy Swaggart ? Pat Robertson ? Jim & Tammy Faye have left the stage.
Putin.
You know this...not sure why you're pretending to be dumb about it.
BTW, this Pope is certainly not a white christian nationalist....you may have noticed how much the right wing dislikes him.
I don't follow each of the evangelist folks you mention closely enough to lump any of them as part of supporting authoritarian imperialism, and I don't recall racism being an essential component...maybe Jerry Falwell?
He’s more of a Jerry Falwell Jr kind of guy. Straight ethics and honor!
https://www.thenation.com/article/archi ... tolerance/
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ns-107133/
Junior:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/01 ... itous-fall
Grifters. Using hate, as if that was God's plan...